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Old 02-14-2011, 06:19 PM   #191
CidahMastah
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The yeast will reproduce either way.

Camden doesn't kill commercial yeast, it suppresses it. The only way to do what you are trying to do, is bottle pastuerize or force carb in a keg and then bottle


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Old 02-14-2011, 08:46 PM   #192
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CidahMastah is correct - Camden won't do the job for you.

Your idea about cold crashing and racking would work well if you are making semi-dry still cider, but is problematic for bottle carbonated cider. Think about it - if you cold crash to make the yeast go dormant and flocculate, then rack off the yeast bed, the point is to stop fermentation. CvilleKevin has posted quite a bit about cold crashing - I think he uses this technique with still cider.

Another option would be to chill the bottles after they are carbonated, making the yeast dormant. You must keep the bottles cold, though, because if they warm up, the yeast will start eating sugars again.

Bottle conditioned, semi-dry, natural cider is a challenge, hence the pasteurization method I use. As CidahMastah said, this is not an issue for folks who keg.

Edit: I just remembered that you used champagne yeast and I don't know the effects of temperature on that yeast, as I have never used it for cider. So, I can't say for certain that my suggestion about chilling the bottles post-carbonation would work.


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Old 02-15-2011, 07:17 PM   #193
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Yeah - I obviously had much less "figured out" when I started the process than I thought...

Been reading on these pages and other pages of people who still get bottle carbonation after cold crashing - apparently enough yeast gets left that it can bottle-carb.

Plus, the champagne yeast seems to ferment so hard that even from the primary, there seems to be mild carbonation. I tasted some of mine last night and was surprised - it felt bubbly on the tongue. Also very acidic, which I can't imagine is from the 4 oranges worth of zest that I added. I also added a pound of honey and pound of brown sugar. Perhaps I should have added even more?...

So here's what I'm trying: I'm cold crashing the cider now in my fridge at 34 degrees (as cold as it gets.) I'm assuming from the champagne yeast that I won't get it all out. (I'm using the 11118 stuff.) I'm going to rack it - possibly even a few times to try and get MOST of the yeast out. I'm also going to closely watch the gravity over the next 2 days in the fridge to see if fermentation stops or keeps going.

by Thursday/Friday'ish, if I don't see any more fermentation, I'm going to probably rack it again, then add store-bought apple juice WITH PRESERVATIVES to the bucket - enough to bring it back to five gallons. I'll probably add a smidge of priming sugar, but not the full amount since the apple juice will be sweetened with most-likely fermentable sugar. Then I'll bottle. I'll leave it at room temp with a few extra bottles and even a plastic soda bottle to see if it carbonates, and how much carbonation I get. I'm hoping that while it's carbonating, the preservatives in the apple juice will keep it from going too fast, or possibly even stall it out. Of course, it might stop it all-together, though I doubt it'll work that quickly. When it seems carbonated enough, I'll refrigerate it all again and hopefully stop the fermentation again.

If I discover in the next few days that it won't stop fermenting, then I'll have no choice but to let it finish out, and do the whole "concentrated apple juice and splenda" trick, and then wait a bajillion months for it to taste decent again.

I'll start researching kegging, but I really have no interest in assuming that expense right now. Summer time is approaching the Viper needs new tires ;-)

Thanks.
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Old 02-22-2011, 08:22 AM   #194
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one thing to add to this ongoing discussion,
the first time i tried this procedure, i was pasteurizing a batch fermented with a wild yeast (from a friend's orchard outside paris) and despite some teething problems things seemed to go fairly well, at least the bottles got to the target temperature. i tried a few bottles several weeks later and they were great. but a month later the one i opened was a total gusher. and it was dry rather than semi-sweet! last weekend i found a final crown cap bottle (all the rest were in swing-tops) that i didn't realize i still had, and the cap was bulging! luckily it was in one of those short stout belgian ale bottles which are pretty strong. i fridged it as soon as i saw it, of course it was dangerously overcarbonated, and very dry. since this batch i have pasteurized two other batches, both using safale04, with the same conditions (70-75 degrees for 30 minutes) and they were absolutely fine. so the message is: know your yeast!! sterile juice fermented with a commercial yeast will be absolutely fine but if there is a rogue strain or bacterium in the background that is heat tolerant, and you kill off the predominant yeast, those rogue guys take over in the bottle. and then you are in big trouble. if i ever pasteurize wild yeast cider again (don't think i will since i like these dry anyways) or a cider that is likely to have something waiting in the wings, i will use a high temperature and much longer time, a temperature closer to that used by the author of this thread, who by the way has been taking a roasting in various threads of this site, despite the multitude of disclaimers at every corner, and i don't blame him (i don't actually know the gender of anyone here) at all for my failure. i think i had good reason for changing the conditions form the ones he recommended, well- one reason- the fear of flying shards associated with a very high carbonation level, and i now see that it was risky to assume that this lowish temp would kill off the whole flora of microorganisms in a wild brew, and so it tuned out to have been a failure, albeit an educational one, which is why i hope others can learn from it.
the really odd thing is that it was a french yeast that refused to surrender...
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Old 03-04-2011, 12:52 PM   #195
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Per my experiments, it took about 5 minutes for the liquid inside a beer bottle to reach 140 degrees in a pot of 162('ish) degree water with the burner off. After 15 minutes, the pot had dropped to around 155 and the liquid in the bottle hit 145. This doesn't reflect any possible variances that might be caused by the bottle being capped (obviously I had a thermometer stuck down into it) but I somewhat expect the impact would be minimal. Experiment was performed with a standard "long-neck" bottle, stainless steel pot with silicon insulator on bottom, electric heat (yeah yeah yeah, I know....)

EDIT* Sorry - I thought I was replying to a post about temp differentials inside bottles... I guess I was on a previous page...
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Old 03-04-2011, 05:11 PM   #196
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ViperMan View Post
Per my experiments, it took about 5 minutes for the liquid inside a beer bottle to reach 140 degrees in a pot of 162('ish) degree water with the burner off. After 15 minutes, the pot had dropped to around 155 and the liquid in the bottle hit 145. This doesn't reflect any possible variances that might be caused by the bottle being capped (obviously I had a thermometer stuck down into it) but I somewhat expect the impact would be minimal. Experiment was performed with a standard "long-neck" bottle, stainless steel pot with silicon insulator on bottom, electric heat (yeah yeah yeah, I know....)

EDIT* Sorry - I thought I was replying to a post about temp differentials inside bottles... I guess I was on a previous page...
I admire your scientific approach Viper. I pasteurized another batch two nights ago. I've lost track of how many batches I've pasteurized now, but its been dozens, with no bottle bombs, either while pasteurizing or afterwards.

I'm thinking about doing a test batch of simple sparkling cider with some pomegranate juice added to it, just to see how it turns out. Although I am reminded of my ginger apple cider experiment - I learned why you never see ginger apple pies, what a horrible combination.
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Old 03-05-2011, 09:49 AM   #197
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way off topic, but i'll be quick. i agree in principle about ginger apple combo in cider, i have tried it, and it was far from what you would call delicious, tasted like medicine in fact, but most mornings i have fresh apple ginger carrot juice from my juicer and it is really (honestly!) spectacular. two tart apples, one large carrot, a thumbnail size of ginger. try it once if you have a juicer. don't ferment it
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Old 03-05-2011, 04:08 PM   #199
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ViperMan View Post
Per my experiments, it took about 5 minutes for the liquid inside a beer bottle to reach 140 degrees in a pot of 162('ish) degree water with the burner off. After 15 minutes, the pot had dropped to around 155 and the liquid in the bottle hit 145. This doesn't reflect any possible variances that might be caused by the bottle being capped (obviously I had a thermometer stuck down into it) but I somewhat expect the impact would be minimal. Experiment was performed with a standard "long-neck" bottle, stainless steel pot with silicon insulator on bottom, electric heat (yeah yeah yeah, I know....)

EDIT* Sorry - I thought I was replying to a post about temp differentials inside bottles... I guess I was on a previous page...
Is anyone here smart enough to extrapolate how long it might take to reach the proper temperature in a quart bottle (32oz) based on the above information. Because i'm sure not bright enough to pull it off.
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Old 03-07-2011, 12:49 PM   #200
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Damnit! I had my whole process figured out, but missed one little dern thing. I bottle 750ml Champagne bottles, so I wasn't as concerned as others with the bottle bombx, knowing the glass could handle the extra pressure.

So I bottled my 2.5g batch, 12bottles and 2 500ml plastic soda bottles for pressure testing. I had back sweetened with the same non filtered juice that I made the cider with. After ~36hrs (last night) I tested one of the plastic bottles that was firm, and it wasn't yet at the carb level I was hoping for. Today I tested the 2nd as the bottle was nice and hard from the carbing. It was perfectly carbonated.

So I go ahead and start the pasteurizing process as stated precisely in the OP. I was doing 4 bottles per batch in the 190deg water, leaving a few inches and the caps out of the water.

Little did I think that I use PLASTIC CORKS! After the ten minutes I pulled out the bottles and all four caps are slightly melted and 2 are pissing a slight amount of air out!

I'm not sure what my options are now. I can't put the next 8 bottles into the pot, or I'll risk them as well. I can't just leave them be, or they will eventually blow as there is a fair amount of sugars in those bottles. And I don't have the fridge space for all of them, especially considering these bottles were designated for summer time consumption.

Any thoughts?

Please note I am on a little bit of a tight schedule. They can afford to carb a bit more, but I need to do something today.




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