Home Brew Forums > Home Brewing Beer > Brew Science > water adjustment vs boiloff rate
Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 04-27-2010, 12:41 AM   #1
shataway
HBT_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: North Palm Beach
Posts: 223
Liked 1 Times on 1 Posts

Default water adjustment vs boiloff rate

I need a simplified water adjustment answer.

I recently changed boil pots. The new one is much wider and my boil off rate has increased from 10% to 18%. When I use the EZ_water_adjustment spreadsheet, it has me increasing salts compare to the smaller pot. I realize this is because I am sparging with more water to account for the higher boil off rate. My gut tells me that this will leave more "residual" salts in the final product. Why is this not so?

Thanks,
Steven


shataway is offline
 
Reply With Quote
Old 04-27-2010, 12:52 PM   #2
dstar26t
If it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing
HBT_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Ridley Park, PA
Posts: 1,247
Liked 35 Times on 33 Posts

Default

I'm on board with your concern. I calculate the minerals for the mash and for whatever sparge water that makes it to the kettle. I've thought about the absolute correct way of calculating the mineral additions like you have. If you are going for a certain profile post boil, there are a couple more factors to keep in mind such as boil-off concentration and any minerals left behind in the grain after sparging.
Then, on the other hand, I want to try and keep it simple by just canceling out the boil-off rate and mash efficiency. There's only about a 5% difference on my system, 15% crap left in the mash (85% efficiency) minus 10% boil-off concentration. In my mind, I'm really ending up with 5% fewer minerals than I planned, if this logic is correct. That's not enough to over-complicate the calculations.
Nate


__________________
Next: No idea
Fermenting: Oktoberfestbier, Kolsch, Homegrown Hop IPA 2015, Doppelbock, Egregious-ish, Barrel Fermented Dreg DelcoLambic, Sacch Trois Helles
Drinking: Oat & Conan DIPA, RIS, Carrot Blossom Cedar Mead, Dusseldorf Altbier, Cider, Rye Berliner Weisse, Sauerkraut Fermented Gose, Gueuze, Brett Blonde, Kriek, Saison, Sour Blonde
Barrel aged: RIS, Rye Barleywine, Tripel, Wee-Heavy
dstar26t is offline
 
Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2010, 12:18 AM   #3
shataway
HBT_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: North Palm Beach
Posts: 223
Liked 1 Times on 1 Posts

Default

I did a little reading on howtobrew.com. It seems that some of the minerals or compounds may breakdown/boiloff/dropout as a result of the boil. My basic premis that the water boils off and leaves the "salts" behind may not be valid.

I still don't get it...
shataway is offline
 
Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2010, 12:33 AM   #4
Bobby_M
Vendor and Brewer
HBT_SPONSOR.png
Vendor Ads 
Feedback Score: 4 reviews
 
Bobby_M's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Whitehouse Station, NJ
Posts: 22,821
Liked 1340 Times on 878 Posts
Likes Given: 35

Default

The basic idea is that if you were in a target city brewing and they have say 50ppm of sulfate in the water. When they brew and boil off 10% volume, they end up with 55ppm in the final wort. It's the same thing for us only we are adding salts to 50ppm preboil.
__________________
Welcome to BrewHardware.com. I love you.
New 100% Stainless Steel Heating Elements are IN! ULWD 5500w Ripple, 2000w, 1500w, etc
Chugger Pumps, Pump Kits, Camlocks, Sightglasses, Clear USA made Silicone Tubing, RIMS, Electric Install Parts, etc.
Bobby_M is offline
 
Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2010, 12:59 AM   #5
shataway
HBT_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: North Palm Beach
Posts: 223
Liked 1 Times on 1 Posts

Default

OK. I think you just agreed with my original post. Should I be adding salts based on boiling off 10% even though I know that I will sparge with more water based on boiling off 18%?
shataway is offline
 
Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2010, 12:22 PM   #6
dstar26t
If it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing
HBT_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Ridley Park, PA
Posts: 1,247
Liked 35 Times on 33 Posts

Default

Simple answer: If I were you, I wouldn't add more minerals, especially if you liked the way your beer tasted with 10% boil-off. Maybe try an experiment?

Here's an e-mail exchange I had with JZ last year:

Jamil,
Is there a percentage of the minerals in the mash that get absorbed by the
grain? Calculating the kettle mineral addition depends highly on what
minerals actually make it to the kettle from the mash. Should I assume all
of the minerals make it to the kettle or only a percentage of them, similar
to the lautering efficiency percentage for sugars?

Do any of the common minerals (gypsum, chalk, baking soda, etc) boil-off?

John mentioned treating all the water, both mash and sparge water. It
doesn't seem he takes into account wort concentration during the boil. That would throw the entire profile off if you're looking for the same profile in
the finished beer as you had in the mash.

Thanks!
Nate

Nate,
I'm sure there is some chelation of the minerals in the mash, though
I'm not sure what percentage that would be. I don't think it would be
really high and some of the water gets locked up in the grain
material, so maybe the net result is higher, lower, or just the same.
I'm not sure I'd bother calculating it.

None of the minerals boil off. They might change form, depending on
the environment.

JZ
__________________
Next: No idea
Fermenting: Oktoberfestbier, Kolsch, Homegrown Hop IPA 2015, Doppelbock, Egregious-ish, Barrel Fermented Dreg DelcoLambic, Sacch Trois Helles
Drinking: Oat & Conan DIPA, RIS, Carrot Blossom Cedar Mead, Dusseldorf Altbier, Cider, Rye Berliner Weisse, Sauerkraut Fermented Gose, Gueuze, Brett Blonde, Kriek, Saison, Sour Blonde
Barrel aged: RIS, Rye Barleywine, Tripel, Wee-Heavy
dstar26t is offline
 
Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2010, 11:36 PM   #7
shataway
HBT_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: North Palm Beach
Posts: 223
Liked 1 Times on 1 Posts

Default

Thanks dstar26t and Bobby_M. I appreciate the help.
shataway is offline
 
Reply With Quote
Old 04-29-2010, 12:36 AM   #8
shataway
HBT_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
Recipes 
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: North Palm Beach
Posts: 223
Liked 1 Times on 1 Posts

Default

Well I thought I was done.

I am modifying my copy of the EZ spreadsheet for basic mash/sparge water volume calculations. Based on the above, I am using 10% for a standard boil off rate. In addition, I am using 1.25 qts/lbs of grain for mash water and 0.1g/lbs for grain absorbtion.



shataway is offline
 
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Water adjustment - Austin, TX water chloramines pale ale anastasis Brew Science 4 04-02-2010 05:31 PM
trying to calculate boiloff, how much sparge water i need, etc for a scottish 60/- dcbeerboy General Beer Discussion 1 11-22-2009 07:07 PM
First try at water adjustment carp Brew Science 5 10-14-2009 12:32 AM
Boiloff rate expectations JBrady Beginners Beer Brewing Forum 3 09-23-2009 02:27 AM
water adjustment positiverpr Recipes/Ingredients 2 10-14-2008 03:09 PM


Forum Jump

Newest Threads

LATEST SPONSOR DEALS