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Old 04-13-2010, 03:59 PM   #1
Mateo
 
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I wanted to throw this up here for any comments or suggestions. I was trying to go from memory as to the temps. Please forgive the C.


 
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Old 04-13-2010, 04:12 PM   #2
SpanishCastleAle
 
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Here ya go. And Kaiser even uses metric too.
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Old 04-13-2010, 10:58 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mateo View Post
I wanted to throw this up here for any comments or suggestions. I was trying to go from memory as to the temps. Please forgive the C.

That's a long rest at low temp. Are you trying to do an acid rest? Also the graph does not show the decoction pulls actually reaching boiling temperature. My take is that unless you are using some legitimately undermodified malt move up the temps of the initial rests and reduce the times. The main rest seems a bit high at 69C too. If you want to do a triple try 46C for 15/20 minutes, 56C for 15/20 minutes, 66C for 60 minutes followed by mashout @ 76C for 15 minutes.

 
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Old 04-14-2010, 11:59 AM   #4
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BigEd,
Just curious because I've always struggled with this:
In your schedule you show the first two rests at 15-20 minutes. How do you pull a decoction, convert it, and boil it in just 15-20 minutes? Is it just a 5 minute boil? I know you don't have to fully convert before the boil but my understanding is that you want it to be mostly converted (5 minutes at ~158* F is usually enough ime). I just don't want to rest too long at the protein rest temps while I'm waiting for the decoction.

You're doing a glucan and a protein rest before the sacc rest (and at the high end for both), is that right?

One thing I have tried to deal with the 'problem' above is to dough-in really thick, pull a super thick all-grain decoction (using a hand strainer), then infuse the decoction to get it up to 158* F quickly (as well as get it loose enough to boil without scorching).
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Old 04-14-2010, 05:35 PM   #5
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BigEd the first rest is an acid rest. I have read that people are advising against acid rests with modern malts, but I worry about not doing one.

The chart is lists approximate temps, and might not reflect actual temps everywhere in the mash tun. This is a light Kolsch and thus I did not follow the thermometer precisely and went off of apparent carmelization of the mash. When the mash color turned amber the last reading was read and the mash held there shortly and was remixed. I was cautious about getting too strong of flavors, especially burnt flavors from the excessive heat on the bottom of the decoction mash tun that might show through in the final beer.

 
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Old 04-14-2010, 05:44 PM   #6
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Quote:
I have read that people are advising against acid rests with modern malts, but I worry about not doing one.
I haven't heard this about acid rests but have with protein rests. The acid rest is a very 'slow working' rest anyway.
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Old 04-14-2010, 05:57 PM   #7
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I have read that too about protein rest. Apparently it makes the beer watery tasting with highly modified malts.

 
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Old 04-15-2010, 12:04 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpanishCastleAle View Post
BigEd,
Just curious because I've always struggled with this:
In your schedule you show the first two rests at 15-20 minutes. How do you pull a decoction, convert it, and boil it in just 15-20 minutes? Is it just a 5 minute boil? I know you don't have to fully convert before the boil but my understanding is that you want it to be mostly converted (5 minutes at ~158* F is usually enough ime). I just don't want to rest too long at the protein rest temps while I'm waiting for the decoction.

You're doing a glucan and a protein rest before the sacc rest (and at the high end for both), is that right?

One thing I have tried to deal with the 'problem' above is to dough-in really thick, pull a super thick all-grain decoction (using a hand strainer), then infuse the decoction to get it up to 158* F quickly (as well as get it loose enough to boil without scorching).
My typical schedule would start at ~131/55C then include a decoction to the main rest at ~151F/66C followed by a second decoction to mash out. The 15/20 minute suggestion above for a more elaborate schedule would of course have to eliminate stepping the pull itself at all of the intermediate stages. Just pull, bring to a boil for a short time and dump back into the mash. This was my suggestion to Mateo to simplify his original schedule while still maintaining three decoctions. Skipping the intermediate rests on the lower temp pulls isn't really going to bother the conversion with modern malts. I do use longer boils btw for my normal two-step version.

 
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Old 04-15-2010, 12:12 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mateo View Post
BigEd the first rest is an acid rest. I have read that people are advising against acid rests with modern malts, but I worry about not doing one.
Don't. Assuming you have some modest Ca+ in the water (50-75ppm) along with perhaps a similar ppm of Cl- and low residual alkalinity the mash pH will be just fine with this beer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mateo View Post
The chart is lists approximate temps, and might not reflect actual temps everywhere in the mash tun. This is a light Kolsch and thus I did not follow the thermometer precisely and went off of apparent carmelization of the mash. When the mash color turned amber the last reading was read and the mash held there shortly and was remixed. I was cautious about getting too strong of flavors, especially burnt flavors from the excessive heat on the bottom of the decoction mash tun that might show through in the final beer.
Doing a decoction on a Kolsch should still produce a very, light colored brew. The darkening of the grains during the boil is normal but it will not make your beer the same color. This seems to be a common misunderstanding that decoction boiling makes the beer darker. I do a Kolsch with double decoction mashes and boils totaling about an hour. The beer is still a beautiful, light straw color.

 
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Old 04-15-2010, 11:35 AM   #10
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BigEd,

What do you think about protein rests and body lightening?

I think I am going to move to a modified double decoction. The triple is very time consuming. Anything to save a little time.

 
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