2 tier vs 1 tier?

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What do you recommend bobby m? You seem to be pretty knowledgeable in brewing. Ive watched all your videos and read a lot of your post (kinda a fan I guess you would say haha) If the fly sparging is better then ill pick up an extra pump and build a two tier. And if batch sparging is better then ill do the one tier. Also I think I remember reading something about you wishing you would have built a two tier system? Anyways what is the best haha. (I wanna make sure I do this right the first time).
 
I'm building a two tier system with two pumps. I want to be able to drain mash tun via gravity into kettle. My lowest tier is only 7" off the ground so I'll pump through the plate chiller and directly into fermenter. By the way I find it easier to fly sparge, just personal preference.
 
I just built a two tier. I decided to go that route because I batch sparge in a cooler and wanted to gravity drain into the boil kettle and I didn't want the cooler near the burners. But I could have done single tier and probably would have been happy with either. When I was deciding I set up my equipment in a few different configurations and brewed each way to get an idea of what I liked. The two tier just seemed to fit my style better.
 
I haven't designed a system yet, but it comes down to how you brew. Do you fly or batch sparge? How many pumps do you want to buy? Do you want it to be portable? Electric? How much space do you have? I'd encourage you to browse around and look at some of the recent builds (although you don't have to get that fancy), and look at some rigs/sculputres.
 
Sorry, correction. Fly sparging requires two simultaneous liquid flows. That can be 3 tiers with no pumps, two tiers with one pump, or single tier with two pumps. Batch sparging requires movement of only one flow at a time so a single tier with one pump will do.

People really like the brewmagic style with HLT, MLT on the top tier and BK on the bottom. If you go that route, I'd hack 12" off the legs because you don't have to gravity drain the BK to the fermenter when you have a pump.
 
IrregularPulse said:
This is what I'm leaning towards as well. My only concern is using a pump for draining my my mash to my BK. I'm worried too much suction might cause channeling. Is this just pish posh in my head?
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No such thing as channeling in batch sparging. However, you do have to be careful about compacting the grainbed with pumped recirculation or draining. One thing that helps is to start slowly to set the bed and slow the runoff speed as you get down to about a gallon left. If you rush this part, you end up losing your siphon/pump prime while wort is still trickling down through bed and under the false bottom. Sometimes I even stop pumping when there's about a gallon left so that I give it a chance to drip down and collect under the FB.
 
If you have any back issues or other physical limitations then a single tier is a better way to go. My brew days are much easier now that I use 2 pumps on a single tier.
 
My setup is a bit different. When I originally built it 15 years ago, everything was very, very, erm, very expensive, so I did a two-tier, but I have my HLT on the top tier and MT and BK on the second tier. I used gravity for HLT and pumped between the MT and BK, then gravity from the BK through the CFC and into my fermenter that sat on the floor. Now that I'm completely redesigning and overhauling my rig, I've opted to keep my setup the same, even though I'm now pumping from my HLT (HLT is electric now, and I recirc the liquor to maintain even temp). Even though the HLT is essentially over head, so what? The HLT is the one kettle that doesn't need to be scrubbed clean after every batch.

I do have a design in my head for a very compact configuration that is nearly at ground level to minmize heavy lifting, but that's more looking forward a few years as I get old and broken down :)

MrH
 
samc said:
If you have any back issues or other physical limitations then a single tier is a better way to go. My brew days are much easier now that I use 2 pumps on a single tier.
Click to expand...

Also keep in mind that the HLT can be up high without you ever having to look into it. Fill it through the drain valve with a GH QD setup. Measure liquid levels with a sight glass, etc.
 
I'd do a 2-tier setup, with a single march pump, unless you plan on automating your brewery in the future. For automation, you definitely want two pumps so just go with a single tier. BUT, if you're like me and want to actually be involved in my brew day and would rather not pay for an extra pump, a 2-tier setup is perfect. Just make sure your HLT is the vessel on the top tier. I built mine with the MLT on top, so I pump water into the MLT to fly sparge, and gravity drain to the boil kettle. My friend has it set up the opposite way, and it works much better.

I've always had problems pumping from my HLT into the MLT for the fly sparge. I don't have that problem when recirculating the mash though. It may be unique to my setup, but no amount of fiddling with connections and hoses keeps the pump from stalling out when I run it restricted. When I build my official brew stand, it will have the HLT on the top tier and the MLT and BK on the bottom tier.
 
Bobby_M said:
No such thing as channeling in batch sparging. However, you do have to be careful about compacting the grainbed with pumped recirculation or draining. One thing that helps is to start slowly to set the bed and slow the runoff speed as you get down to about a gallon left. If you rush this part, you end up losing your siphon/pump prime while wort is still trickling down through bed and under the false bottom. Sometimes I even stop pumping when there's about a gallon left so that I give it a chance to drip down and collect under the FB.
Click to expand...
Sounds like a PITA.
Maybe I'll look at a 2 tier setup with HLT and BK on one level and MT on a higher level to gravity drain into my BK. Use my pump to transfer from HLT to MT and BK recirc through CFC and into fermenter.
 
It's not as bad as it sounds. With v 1.0 of my rig, I used a spiral copper tube manifold for my false bottom in my MT. Out of the 50+ brews I did with it, I only came close to a compaction once when recirculating, but it was because I pushed the limits of my system and had my 18gal kettle filled to the brim. Even then it only required throttling down the flow a bit. It sounds like you don't plan on doing a RIMS/HERMS? If you are, you still need to be able to recirc. With a properly designed false bottom and the right water-to-grain ratio, you should be fine. It just takes a bit of monitoring during the process, which you have to do anyway if you fly sparge...

MrH
 
Ive had both. Gravity is free but pumps are cool.

I really liked my single tier Brutus. Worked awesome, dual pumps are a great way to go. Ive since moved up to a 20 gallon B3 2050 and the extra height of the MT combined with a tippy dump is a breeze for removing spent grains. It has a smaller footprint as well

Both make beer, its personal choice
 
I am going to build a two tier one pump. I will be able to batch or fly sparge with this setup easily. The mash tun will gravity feed to the BK. Mash tun in the middle and the highest vessel, to the right the BK and to the left the HLT.
 
If I do single tier one pump whats the best way to mash? Batch sparging? and how would this process go? btw I will be direct fire mashing in a keggle. Sorry guys if these are dumb questions i'm new to all grain brewing.
 
I am building a two tier rig right now. I built it out of 2 inch square steel tube. I know a little over kill but hey the price was right. I have placed the HLT in the center and elevated it 21 inches. The BK and MT are both at the same level. This will alow me to fly sparge and by keeping the HLT in the center it keeps it balanced. I will be posting some photos soon showing the build progress.

Wing nut
 
JUSTINTIMEBREWING said:
If I do single tier one pump whats the best way to mash? Batch sparging? and how would this process go? btw I will be direct fire mashing in a keggle. Sorry guys if these are dumb questions i'm new to all grain brewing.
Click to expand...

I would honestly try to find a way to buy a used pump and go dual. You will be much happier if you do
 
MrH said:
My setup is a bit different. When I originally built it 15 years ago, everything was very, very, erm, very expensive, so I did a two-tier, but I have my HLT on the top tier and MT and BK on the second tier. I used gravity for HLT and pumped between the MT and BK, then gravity from the BK through the CFC and into my fermenter that sat on the floor. Now that I'm completely redesigning and overhauling my rig, I've opted to keep my setup the same, even though I'm now pumping from my HLT (HLT is electric now, and I recirc the liquor to maintain even temp). Even though the HLT is essentially over head, so what? The HLT is the one kettle that doesn't need to be scrubbed clean after every batch.

I do have a design in my head for a very compact configuration that is nearly at ground level to minmize heavy lifting, but that's more looking forward a few years as I get old and broken down :)

MrH
Click to expand...
I like this idea.
 
JUSTINTIMEBREWING said:
I like this idea.
Click to expand...

I brewed using this setup for a very long time with one pump. Since you say you're new to AG brewing I think you need to decide what you want out of it. Keep in mind that RIMS, HERMS, and direct fire recirculating systems are nothing more than a means to accurately maintain mash temps. In all of these designs, you NEED the recirculation to even out the temp and clarify your wort. This means you need at least one pump dedicated to recirculation, at least while you're mashing. I used my pump to recirc during the mash, then to push the wort to the kettle during fly sparging. Since I have my HLT above my MT, I could gravity feed my sparge liquor to my MT. By comparing the flow between the two, it was actually pretty simple to match rates. I tried batch sparging once with my setup and had terrible efficiency (like 20 points less than normal). I don't doubt I could have improved that with practice, but with fly sparging I had a very consistent 84% brewhouse efficiency, so I stuck with what worked.

Actually, the only real difference in my setup now is that I've added an electric element to my HLT, and I've opted to use a recirc pump to maintain even temps in that. I will also use that same pump to feed my MT, but mainly because it makes the plumbing simpler.

MrH
 
MrH said:
I brewed using this setup for a very long time with one pump. Since you say you're new to AG brewing I think you need to decide what you want out of it. Keep in mind that RIMS, HERMS, and direct fire recirculating systems are nothing more than a means to accurately maintain mash temps. In all of these designs, you NEED the recirculation to even out the temp and clarify your wort. This means you need at least one pump dedicated to recirculation, at least while you're mashing. I used my pump to recirc during the mash, then to push the wort to the kettle during fly sparging. Since I have my HLT above my MT, I could gravity feed my sparge liquor to my MT. By comparing the flow between the two, it was actually pretty simple to match rates. I tried batch sparging once with my setup and had terrible efficiency (like 20 points less than normal). I don't doubt I could have improved that with practice, but with fly sparging I had a very consistent 84% brewhouse efficiency, so I stuck with what worked.

Actually, the only real difference in my setup now is that I've added an electric element to my HLT, and I've opted to use a recirc pump to maintain even temps in that. I will also use that same pump to feed my MT, but mainly because it makes the plumbing simpler.

MrH
Click to expand...

Good info! this helped a lot thanks. Oh ya and another thing i wanted to ask was how do you tell the efficiency of a mash ive been seeing this everywhere, but have no clue how people come up with these percentages...:confused:
 
Another factor to consider is your cooling method. If you are using a CFC, you would want your BK high enough to allow gravity flow to your fermenter. (maybe I'm just stating the obvious)
 
I did the opposite of what some have mentioned. One pump. HLT on top left, BK on top right, MLT is on bottom:

DSC01818.jpg


Use gravity to drain strike water to MLT. Stir in grain. Use pump to slowly move runnings up to BK. You can batch OR fly sparge this way. Start heating BK as runnings are added. The MLT is your heaviest vessel and will need to be pulled for cleaning. It's easiest and safest if it is low. The BK doesn't need to be watched for boilover if you use fermcap. This worked pretty well for me, and it required one less march pump to fuss with.
 
Also, take a look in my sig....we're looking at how to make a single vessel system that can do everything a 3-vessel one can. :mug:
 
I have been using a 3 tier, but now that I have a pump, I can now have a much lower stand but still be able to fly sparge if I wanted to. I plan on lowering the post substantially, and rotating it so the MLT is closer and the HLT is further away, and I'll have the BK closer and lower to the ground as well. I hate having the HLT directly over the BK, it restricts access and sometimes the burner flakes off paint and rust into the BK. I'll also make a shelf for the portable RIMS kit below the MLT, and eventually a splitter for a single propane tank to feed both burners. This means no more stepladders. If the pump died I could still do at least a 5g batch using gravity, and more if I did some work with a bucket. I have to get the welder out to make a mount for a newer burner anyway, at the moment it's just sitting on a pile of pavers.
Before and after (excuse the lazy photoshop using just my trackpad)
breweryV2.jpg
 
bendavanza said:
I have been using a 3 tier, but now that I have a pump, I can now have a much lower stand but still be able to fly sparge if I wanted to. I plan on lowering the post substantially, and rotating it so the MLT is closer and the HLT is further away, and I'll have the BK closer and lower to the ground as well. I hate having the HLT directly over the BK, it restricts access and sometimes the burner flakes off paint and rust into the BK. I'll also make a shelf for the portable RIMS kit below the MLT, and eventually a splitter for a single propane tank to feed both burners. This means no more stepladders. If the pump died I could still do at least a 5g batch using gravity, and more if I did some work with a bucket. I have to get the welder out to make a mount for a newer burner anyway, at the moment it's just sitting on a pile of pavers.
Before and after (excuse the lazy photoshop using just my trackpad)
Click to expand...

Sounds about right to me. I'm still waiting for someone with a brewmagic to figure the same thing out and hack off 14" of the legs.
 

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