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Old 02-09-2010, 10:08 PM   #31
Randar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boerderij_Kabouter View Post
and the frequency of the current become very close to your hearts frequency and stops it from beating.
AC electrocution causes convulsive muscle contractions and this is the violent shake of the electric chair you may have seen and can stress the heart into failure. This is true. It is the cyclical violent contraction that causes the damage, though, and the strength of this contraction is dependent on the power in the load flowing through the body. For 110v AC (we don't have true 120V) a 30 amp load will be roughly 3300W of power. At 220v this same 3300W of power is really just 15A. So while people say "amps is what kills ya" or "high voltage kills ya", it is the load (read watts of power) that kills ya.

For DC current this is slightly different. There is no peak-to-peak cycling of the voltage and therefore DC current will not cause the convulsive electrocution. You'll just be frozen with a permanent muscle contraction. Also, while you may survive a shock from DC current, it also cause electrolysis of the fluids in your body which will release toxic compounds and you may die several hours later from blood poisoning.



In the end, there are many old adages or saying that apply here and all should be equally heeded. If you're the kind of person that doesn't wear a seatbelt or a helmet on your motorcycle, by all means, you're welcome to do as you please.

But, if you have kids, pets, spouses, roomates that could possibly be affected, God forbid something happens to them that could have been prevented by a small dose of "cautious engineering"...

It's not scare tactics, it's reality.



 
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Old 02-09-2010, 10:15 PM   #32
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It has nothing to do with being macho. It has everything to do with knowledge of the system I am working on.
This.


As far as I know everything close to the kettle will be completely sealed within a water proof box. From there we are running cable approx 15 to the panel... more than enough distance from the kettle to warrant any kind of spillage concern.

It kind of like boiling water in the kitchen and being afraid you'll splash someone in the next room over. Short of throwing it at him, it's impossible.



 
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Old 02-09-2010, 10:18 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Randar View Post
AC electrocution causes convulsive muscle contractions and this is the violent shake of the electric chair you may have seen and can stress the heart into failure. This is true. It is the cyclical violent contraction that causes the damage, though, and the strength of this contraction is dependent on the power in the load flowing through the body. For 110v AC (we don't have true 120V) a 30 amp load will be roughly 3300W of power. At 220v this same 3300W of power is really just 15A. So while people say "amps is what kills ya" or "high voltage kills ya", it is the load (read watts of power) that kills ya.
Ahhh... I knew it was something like that but couldn't remember the specifics. It is 6 years now since I ran the numbers and learned the theory.

Your points are good. There is no good argument against putting in the interrupt, so why wouldn't you?

 
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Old 02-09-2010, 10:18 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brewmoor View Post
Do have electrical expertise? What is your job? I not looking for a pissing contest. I just wonder. All of my line voltage is in a sealed nema box. The only connections that could be exposed to water is my control panel. It only has 12v dc very low amperage draw. The 12v power supply 2.5 amps is in the sealed nema box. My elements are covered with drilled out plumbing caps and potted with jbweld.
As I said, if you wish to take chances on your design being impervious to any element of failure and take the responsibility on your shoulders, go right ahead. Nobody on here is going to stop you.

But the advice you seem to be giving is advice I would never give a single person. "Skip the tiny cost of peace of mind and protection against failure because there is no way anything can go wrong".

I'm not going to get into a pissing match about internet expertise. I could say I run the electrical engineering division of NASA and it wouldn't matter on the internet.

In the end, you're going to save what, $15 or even $30 by foregoing GFCI after spending hundreds, if not thousands on your brew equipment and setup?

Tell me that makes sense.

 
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Old 02-09-2010, 10:21 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Randar View Post
As I said, if you wish to take chances on your design being impervious to any element of failure and take the responsibility on your shoulders, go right ahead. Nobody on here is going to stop you.

But the advice you seem to be giving is advice I would never give a single person. "Skip the tiny cost of peace of mind and protection against failure because there is no way anything can go wrong".

I'm not going to get into a pissing match about internet expertise. I could say I run the electrical engineering division of NASA and it wouldn't matter on the internet.

In the end, you're going to save what, $15 or even $30 by foregoing GFCI after spending hundreds, if not thousands on your brew equipment and setup?

Tell me that makes sense.
If that were the case we would not be having this conversation. GFCI breaker for my panel. 30amp is $89.

Also I never gave any advice. I just said I agree with others statements. I also stated that I have a GFCI circuit on my system.
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Old 02-09-2010, 10:22 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mhermetz View Post
This.


As far as I know everything close to the kettle will be completely sealed within a water proof box. From there we are running cable approx 15 to the panel... more than enough distance from the kettle to warrant any kind of spillage concern.

It kind of like boiling water in the kitchen and being afraid you'll splash someone in the next room over. Short of throwing it at him, it's impossible.
So nothing within the range of the kettle has the potential of failing? Corroded connection to the element and the shielding of element connection is also heat and water proof (boiling water, mind you)?

 
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Old 02-09-2010, 10:23 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Randar View Post
It's not scare tactics, it's reality.
Reminded me of Edger Allen Poe's "Angel of the Odd". As I recall it was about people dying in all fashion of 'strange' ways. A long time ago a fireman told me that professional fire fighting was THE most dangerous line of work. Volunteers had a much lower mortality rate because they had more fear.

 
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Old 02-09-2010, 10:23 PM   #38
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Old 02-09-2010, 10:29 PM   #39
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What Randar is saying is that you cannot control what is out of your control. He is right, even if his delivery was a bit grating.

 
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Old 02-09-2010, 10:32 PM   #40
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I get that. I just know first hand from jobs I worked on that there are not GFCI in the likely places you would think.

Commercial kitchens, boiler rooms, snow melt systems, and few others I have seen around here. The ideas are sound. Be Safe. The delivery is like putting a hockey uniform on to play tennis. It is just not always needed.


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