Do all extract kits have a similar taste?

I've been running into something that is driving me up the wall and i will admit it could just be lack of experience. I think overall i've made about 5 kits and 3 clone beer recipies. clone beer recipies (i'll leave the lager recipe out since it was a disaster and fermented way to high temp) seem to have had much more distinction to them. One was an Edelweiss Dunkel Weissbier that was my first attempt from a kit, that ended up being a great beer. The other two were Paulaner Hefe-Weizen clone, first was ok, second was way better when i used a better yeast and actually started monitoring the fermentation temp.

Watching the fermentation temp seemed to be the biggest thing that helped so obviously i've been making sure to watch that more with new brews.

But it seems all the kits come out and taste similar to each other, they all have their slight differences but they all have that similar flavor that say's, yep, i made that myself. my wife who hasn't had my home brew for a good year turned her head and asked if that was one of the beers i had made just from the smell. Dont' get me wrong it's not a bad smell, it's just a similar smell from brew to brew. I also should say that i do usually start drinking these within a month or 1.5 of bottling.

Since it's obvious i'm still very new at this hobby after just a few brews could someone tell me if this is standard. Do i need to leave the kits behind and move on, all my recipies have been extract. even the good recipies showed some of this similar flavor so i'm wondering if it's an extract thing and time to move up to a minimash (i've got no room or equipment for allgrain)

I'd appreciate any insight, if i need to wait a good 6 months for the right flavors to develop or something along those lines let me know. Thanks

monty67 said:

But it seems all the kits come out and taste similar to each other, they all have their slight differences but they all have that similar flavor that say's, yep, i made that myself.

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Do you mean that a stout tastes like a pale ale? Or that there is an underlying flavor that you are discerning in all of them?

If its the latter, then you need to work on identifying it - rather than just that its a taster or flavor - what kind of taste? If you can't describe it, you can't really be sure that its there in all your beers.

Many people make very good extract beers, so its not a matter of quality. It might be the quality of your ingredients, it might be something about your process, it might a fermentation issue.

Try making some very small changes and see what it affects maybe, before making any huge changes. For instance, maybe try a batch with bottled water instead of tap?

When you say kits, do you mean canned hopped extract or some kit put together by a supplier with fresh extract and hops that you have to boil for about a hour?

sorry, i can answer one of these i wasn't clear on, kits as in brewers best kits. and as for the flavor, i'll drink one tonight and try and pinpoint it, it's not an off flavor i don't think just one similar thing. Sorry for the generalities, i'd open one now but it's 8:30 am and the boss might get pissed if i was napping through the afternoon. ha!

If the kits all use the same yeast, that may be the common thread. I know my first kits all had the same yeast, and I had the same question. Next you assk the same question about using dme, then you will give AG a try, at least that's what I did.

change up the yeast, you will be surprised how much difference it can make

Try replacing the yeast in the kit with SafAle 05, it has a pretty clean and neutral taste and it is also fairly tolerant of fermentation temperature.

Also, cooling the wort down to 75 F helped me as did fermenting in a cool and relatively constant temperature.

It seems to me that things that happen to the beer after the boil has stopped are more important than what happens before, the temperature that the wort is cooled to, the kind of yeast used, the temperature of fermentation, the constancy of the fermentation temperature, and the length of time before bottling all probably have as great or greater effect on taste than do the ingredients used, providing of course that the inredients are of reasonably high quality to begin with.

Using a kit with fresh LME and steeping grains and hops will make all the difference in the world. I did one brewer's best kits, then tried a local shop's recipe and it makes things totally different.

You will always notice more yeast flavor in homebrew than in commercial brew...

A few things, i also wondered if it's a flavor i'm getting from the extract that's why the next recipie i'm doing is gonna be a minimash to see if there is a difference.

As for changing up the yeast, i've used the wyats(spell?) smack packs with a couple and i did feel they made a difference but these were also in extract clone brews that were a bit bigger than a box kit. The most recent beer i'm drinking is the 2009 hop nog and it had a new yeast that my local guy said was supposed to be great, a really clean yeast, i think it was in a pink sack but i can't say what it was for sure, yeah, the one thing i didn't right down

I am getting better at the temperature, my basement is really at perfect temp right now around 58 for a fermenting ale so i'll be getting the next one going here soon.

The smell, now that i'm having another one, well, i'll just describe the beer. It sat in the primary for 3 weeks, bottled 4 weeks ago so it is still a baby. the carbonation is just right. decent lacing, i dont' know what that says but it sounds fancy like saying a wine has nice legs. The nose is a little more refined then the last one i had a week ago. it doesn't smell like i just pulled it out of the primary which they usually do. the nose has a little fruit, a tiny bit of bubble gum, a tiny hint of banana, some yeast and spice, the mouth has an upfront sharp hit from the carbonation (probably should have put it in the fridge a couple days ago, this one just got in this morning for about 12 hours) then it smooths out with a hoppy finish, i like a zesty citrus hit of hops that doesn't hang on my tounge for an hour, this was really bad the first time i tried it so it is getting better.

hmm why does it sound like i'm describing what might just be an age thing? I know some people say ipa's are meant to drink young but i don't necessarily agree with that, and even if it is so then one month of bottle age probably still hasn't let this get to it's peak yet. also, if i look back at the relatively few brews i've done i think i've started tapping into them all within the first month and finished within another month or two...

What happened to me when I first started brewing: SWMBO never liked my brews (extract). Until I figured out that the B-T-F Iodophor Iodine Sanitizer was giving it a slight, non attractive note to everything I did. Once I rinsed EVERY thing that touched my beer with tap water....Problem solved. SWMBO noticed it at first taste and loves just about all of them now.

Another thread here a brewer found his garden hose (in the sun) was a culprit. Hope you figure it out, cheers

... don`t listen to wives

Is the extact canned in those kits? I'm wondering if your describing extract "twang". Try picking up a kit from Austin homebrew or northern brewer. I used to taste that twang in the mr beer kits. Even Forrest from austin homebrew supply said you get that taste from old canned extract.
Other than that. Do whatever you can to keep your fermentation temps in check.

Your water, sanitising, process (doubt thats it), extract twang.
What about your water? are you buying or using tap water? Mine tastes like pool water so I buy mountain spring water for beer.

Stuntmantoo said:

What happened to me when I first started brewing: SWMBO never liked my brews (extract). Until I figured out that the B-T-F Iodophor Iodine Sanitizer was giving it a slight, non attractive note to everything I did. Once I rinsed EVERY thing that touched my beer with tap water....Problem solved. SWMBO noticed it at first taste and loves just about all of them now.

Another thread here a brewer found his garden hose (in the sun) was a culprit. Hope you figure it out, cheers

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Was your Iodophor concentration too high? Did the Iodophor not drain out of the bottles long enough. I've not had a problem with this one....yet....

JimE said:

Was your Iodophor concentration too high? Did the Iodophor not drain out of the bottles long enough. I've not had a problem with this one....yet....

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Weird, I've never had idophor taste issues either.

I've done 12 extract brews, most with steeping grains. I've never had 1 turn out similar to the other (they were all different styles, I think I've only used the same yeast once). I think the only common thing is that they all come out tasting "light" or "watery". I've had occasional off-flavors in one or the other, due to fermentation temps, etc.

So I guess what I'm saying is that it's definitely possible to get different tasting extract brews. If they all have the same off-flavor, then it's got to be something that's common among all of them, such as the water, or the brand of extract you are using.

it's definately not the sanitizer, i've uses starzan i think, the oxygen based cleaner with everything and rinse out the sanitizer. the water here does have a little chlorine smell, but i've done brews with bottled water, water through the brita and straight from the tap, seems to me there wasn't that much difference. hmmm, maybe i remember one seeming smoother with bottled water but i'm not sure will definately give that another try. the kits all have had different companies of canned extracts along with the powerdered dme. Hop nog was seasonal so i don't think it was outdated andi cheked the exparation dates to make sure. Now that i think about it, seems that the Powdered DME has been in all the brews. I wonder if that is not the common thread.

If i want to do this right i suppose for checking if it's the water i need to do two batches side by side of the same beer, one with bottled, the other with tap.

After that, looks like the Mini mash to see if there is any difference by upping the grain and lowering the dme.

Sounds like the mythical "extract twang" to me. My first 5 brews all had a very similar underlying flavor to them. I was able to dimish it by doing some changes to my process: long primary (3-4 weeks), temperature control, 1 mo+ bottle aging, using DME instead of LME, and late extract addition.

Nothing made as big of a difference as switching to PM though. My first PM beer (only 2lb of grain w/ 5 lb DME) tasted better to me at 6 days in the primary than any of my other extract batches. At 6 weeks in the bottle it's perfectly carbed and only has a slight hint of extract twang.

After the first batch came out so well I really wanted to maximise the amount of grain that I could mash given my apartment situation so I built a 3 gal. MT that can handle 6.6-7 lbs of grain for a 4 gal partial boil. I drank a bottle of yooper's 60 minute IPA clone a couple days ago and it is PHENOMINAL! The carbonation is almost perfect after only 2 weeks in the bottle and there is no twang at all even though the recipe had 5lbs of LME added at flamout. It has the clean profile I've been trying to get since my first batch, and I got much better attenuation than when I was doing all extract.

Once you have a couple of batches under your belt and you get the process/basics down I think the best gains in quality you will see come from moving to PM (or AG if you can). I can't wait too see how my beers turn out once I get the mash process dialed in.

i didn't want to say it but i was wondering if there was some type of flavor associated with extract, i made a lot of wine kits in the past 2 years and people are always complaining about a 'kit' flavor too. i didn't want to compare completely but it does sound like it. the mysterious flavor you just can't put your finger on but you know is there. Some people notice and and other's don't think it exists.

I need to get something light for the upcoming spring going so i'll probably do my pauliner wheat clone but this time with the minimash, compare it side by side with an extract. if i can get some fresh hops for the recipie i'm gonna try that too. i don't have a grinder but my local guy said if i give him a little notice of a few days he'll grind what i need for the minimash as long as he has the grain.

I have noticed one problem i'm having is that it's taking longer than i want to get my boil going again after adding ingredients, is it total boiling time that you worry about in the cooking or total time the wort is under heat? i think it's boil time...

monty67 said:

it's definately not the sanitizer, i've uses starzan i think, the oxygen based cleaner with everything and rinse out the sanitizer.

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People. StarSan and Iodophor are NO-RINSE sanitizers. Once you "rinse" off the sanitizer with tap water you are reinfecting everything. Tap water is not sanitized; it contains trace amounts of all sorts of microbes.

I used to get a flavor that I could best describe as "metallic" when I used canned LME. When I switched to fresh bulk LME my beers improved immensely.

I still think there's something weird about this thread - if you are looking for a more "complex" profile, then PM or AG makes sense. If you are trying to correct an "off flavor", then there's something going wrong with either the ingredients or the preparation. It's not clear to me which problem is being addressed here.

In "Designing Great Beers", it mentions a few styles where all-extract brews routinely win beer competitions - though I think mainly in the wheat beer category. It's definitely possible to make an award winning extract beer... some day I hope to find out myself

jigidyjim said:

I still think there's something weird about this thread - if you are looking for a more "complex" profile, then PM or AG makes sense. If you are trying to correct an "off flavor", then there's something going wrong with either the ingredients or the preparation. It's not clear to me which problem is being addressed here.

In "Designing Great Beers", it mentions a few styles where all-extract brews routinely win beer competitions - though I think mainly in the wheat beer category. It's definitely possible to make an award winning extract beer... some day I hope to find out myself

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I'm almost positive the "off-flavor" he is describing has to do with the fact that he is doing all extract batches. Like I said all my extract brews had a similar underlying flavor. It wasn't even a bad taste, it was just something I didn't necessarily want in my beer and it was disappointing to taste it over and over again.

After a few months in the bottle this flavor disappeared or diminished, but I don't see the need to age a beer for that long when I can get the same results right out the fermenter. When I have a more permanent living situation, and more storage space to hide my cases this would make more sense...But not right now while I'm a highly mobile apartment dweller.

If your method is sound I don't see any reason why you shouldn't move to big PMs or AG. Its easy, more fun (imo), cheaper in the long run, and like you said will give your brew more complexity. After tasting the results of my first 3 PMs I will never do another all extract again.

Not clear on the answer - most of the Liquid extract is canned - is it pre-hopped or are you adding your own?

Suggestion - find a recipe you like, and repeat it. This time, order all the ingredients individually, so your LME will be fresh. Often shipped in a "milk carton" type container, or screw top plastic, not canned. Order the hops separately. (Same order, just not a pre-hopped extract) Add half the extract (liquid or dry) at the beginning, boil the bittering hops, and add the last of the extract toward the end.

if your water tastes good out of the tap, that's okay (mine tastes like a swimming pool, so I splurge on my beer and buy water).
Don't rinse your sanitizer.

ferment at 65F or lower. If you have steeping grains, or do mini-mashes, do NOT squeeze your grains. let them drip when you remove them, rinse them, but never squeeze them.

Now, if this gets you a decent beer, you have a new process. You can change one thing at a time, over 5-7 more batches, or blend all the suggestions (mine and others).

As many will tell you, you CAN make good extract beer. I did it for years, and yes, all-grain is much more fun, but you can certainly dial in your process with extract.

oh - one more thing - WRITE it down! Each time you make beer, write down what you do, what you use, how you did something....

good luck, Monty! We all want you to make your BEST ever!

As for the starsan i said i was using, sorry, just looked and it is Straight A, and is for cleaning. THe directions for cleaning is "Wash bottles and equipment witht he solution then rinse with hot water." There is a no rinse version of this that actually came with my first brew kit and i was told i can use as a no rinse sanitizer. but i've always rinsed them out. Besides, this stuff does leave a build up if you don't rinse it out well.

As for sanitizing after doing wine for the last few years i was just using a solution of metabisulphite and water as a sanitizer before bottling. Honestly i always just feel as long as the equipment is cleaned well and then used promptly it will be ok, i've never had a problem yet, and i've filled a lot of wine bottles and even with the small amount of brews i've made ,never had a problem with a beer being bad from my method.

hang glider, i'm on that path, everything is written down, for the last brew anyway, hey the first one in a while, doing all the wine taught me to write everything down or you're not gonna have a clue what you did. Thanks for summing all the positives up. I've got high hopes for future brews, i'll probably be back with more questions before too long. Thanks everyone for the insights

oh, and i've never used a pre hopped can of extract, didn't know they made them, when i've done my one clone brews they've used the dry dme, the kits have usually come with a combination of canned and dry but the hop pellets are always seperate.

are you using the same yeast?

nope, looking back, the first kits i did a few years back had, i think, a notingham yeast, then i've used different white labs yeasts and they guys that do the smack packs, don't remember their names, also the hop nog had the safae strain, don't know the exact one.

Just tossing in a vote for the canned extract as being a likely source of your flavor, and the much-discussed "extract twang." I'm an extract brewer and use fresh bulk LME for all of my beers, and I haven't had the same issue at all.

My first two brews were canned hopped LME's from the same LHBS. They had some similar off tastes, that reminded me of the SMELL of the LHBS (it's also a natural foods shop and they burn incense in there continuously and everything you buy there, from bottles to buckets, has a similar smell.

My 3rd brew was a NB American Wheat, unhopped so it had to be boiled, and it really did not have any of the off tastes I was experiencing with the other brews. It also came with a different yeast, and I pitched the yeast at a cooler temp than before, so is it the yeast? the LHBS lingering smell? Pitching too warm? Who knows, I chalk it all up to being a newb and am correcting any potential problems with my technique with each brew (I hope).

monty, are you making a sizable yeast starter, to build up their numbers before pitching?

actually, i've never made a yeast starter, my local guy always just said to dump it in and let it go. I've never had a problem with it not finishing in the correct amount of time, about a week. However, after reading through some of the comments i'm willing to give it a try, it sounds like it's a good practice the keep from having a slow start, what is the basic process for making a yeast starter?

nevermind, did a search.