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Old 01-13-2010, 04:23 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tonkota View Post
Polyisocyanurate would work very well for you. But I worry about the wood studs being the short circuit in this application. A continuous run of insulation board on the inside would help more than you could imagine. A 2x8 has an R-value of about 1. Not a huge deal if they are spaced 24" O.C., but this will detract from the assembly R-value.

6" Polyisocyanurate is about R-43.

The floor would also need to be isolated.
This is great. I was looking for some insulation with a high R value. I will look into using a core of foam for the wall and metal sheathing, but I fear that may break the bank, and not be as sturdy. I will have to see.

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Originally Posted by GVH_Dan View Post
Without reading much more than your first post, here are my thoughts/advice:

- You are going to want a vapor barrier that surrounds the entire outside (walls, floors, and ceiling) of the walk-in. It should go outside of the insulation to prevent moisture from being pulled into the insulation and causing it to degrade.

- You will also want a minimum of R-20 maybe more if you do the freezer to keep the outside surface warm enough to prevent condensation on the outside of the vapor barrier. That water will cause mold to grow in your walls.

- With the addition of the freezer, you make it considerably more complicated. You could provide all the cooling in the freezer and simply leak the air into the cooler as needed to keep it cool. That is how your refrigerator works. But with the circulation of the air, you could end up with smells from your cooler permeating food in the freezer. Additionally, a simple AC unit will no longer work. Once your evaporator temperature drops below freezing, you have to be able to defrost the coil. A simple A/C unit can't do that on its own.

- Using outside air can also provide complications. It must be heavily filtered or you could get odors from outside in. Additionally, look at the fan power you are using and compare it to the compressor power you are saving. You'll find they may be quite close.
Vapor barrier I got, do i need it on the inside and the outside though?

We are aiming for a R-Value of 40+ and using materials that are mold inhibiting. Mold in my house is the last thing that I want!!

To keep the coils warmer than freezing, I was thinking about taking a run of heat trace through the drip pan so that the water would not freeze and could drain, as well as pulling "warmer than freezing" air over the coils using fans and some ducting or small heaters only when the unit is running. I can go into further detail if this seems confusing, but do you think that would help keep the unit running? I got this idea from the original thread posted by John Beere.

The fan that I am using to pull in the air is a very solid unit. It is very small and has a flow rate of 100 CFM running at .21 Amps. It is made by Hoffman for industrial environments. I may take the fan from the outside and nix it, and just have a fan moving air from the freezer to the cooler.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bonsai4tim View Post
Sounds like putting a cheap upright freezer inside the walk in cooler would be easier.

t
I had thought about doing this as well, but allowing the exchanger on the back of the freezer to breathe outside air....



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Old 01-13-2010, 04:44 PM   #12
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I have a 20ft. conex that has insulation and an ac unit.


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Old 01-13-2010, 04:54 PM   #13
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I have a 20ft. conex that has insulation and an ac unit.
What temperature do you keep it at? What BTU is your AC, and lastly do you ahve condensation issues?
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Old 01-13-2010, 05:03 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by bonsai4tim View Post
Sounds like putting a cheap upright freezer inside the walk in cooler would be easier.

t
I like the idea of using and upright freezer as well. It seems like it would be much cheaper (but certainly less cool looking). The only major installation issue would be to figure out the exhaust system for the hot air the freezer will generate.
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Old 01-13-2010, 05:07 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by tpgsr View Post
Vapor barrier I got, do i need it on the inside and the outside though?
Vapor barrier always on the warm side. That's where the humidity is. You want to block it from being pulled into the insulation.

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Originally Posted by tpgsr View Post
To keep the coils warmer than freezing, I was thinking about taking a run of heat trace through the drip pan so that the water would not freeze and could drain, as well as pulling "warmer than freezing" air over the coils using fans and some ducting or small heaters only when the unit is running. I can go into further detail if this seems confusing, but do you think that would help keep the unit running? I got this idea from the original thread posted by John Beere.

The fan that I am using to pull in the air is a very solid unit. It is very small and has a flow rate of 100 CFM running at .21 Amps. It is made by Hoffman for industrial environments. I may take the fan from the outside and nix it, and just have a fan moving air from the freezer to the cooler.
What you are talking about is called air defrost. Food plants will do that in coolers and production areas. If you are trying to keep a space at 38F, your coil surface temperature will probably be 10F lower, or 28F. Obviously, this builds up frost as it operates. When the space point temperature is met, the fan will continue to run but the refrigerant flow stops. Since you are blowing 38F air over the coil, it melts the frost and lets it drip away.

You can't do this in a freezer. In a freezer, you are keeping the temperature at 0F or less. To defrost the coil, heat must be added. Heat trace would do it, but you will see it in your electric bill.

Placing a small freezer in there is looking better. Be careful with poking a hole so the freezer can see outside air. That means a penetration in your vapor barrier and that is hard to seal up. If there is a hole, you will get a lot of moisture in the summer and that could me mold inside your cooler. At the least, it will mean the compressor will have to work very hard to keep up.
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Old 01-13-2010, 05:10 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by bonsai4tim View Post
Sounds like putting a cheap upright freezer inside the walk in cooler would be easier.

t
The other benifit is that when you realize you need more space for more kegs you can move the freezer outside the fridge just make sure the fridge door is wide enough...
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Old 01-13-2010, 05:17 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by CarsonCE View Post
I like the idea of using and upright freezer as well. It seems like it would be much cheaper (but certainly less cool looking). The only major installation issue would be to figure out the exhaust system for the hot air the freezer will generate.
I like the idea, but I would 1000x rather have it as a functional built in freezer within the walk in.

I guess since I only left it like 3'x3' I will not be losing much space by placing a large freezer in there. Ok, back to the drawing board..... Freezer ducted in, and the cooler operating off of an AC unit. I would assume that it will help to keep my freezer from running all of the time having it in such a cold environment.
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Old 01-13-2010, 05:33 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by GVH_Dan View Post
Vapor barrier always on the warm side. That's where the humidity is. You want to block it from being pulled into the insulation.



What you are talking about is called air defrost. Food plants will do that in coolers and production areas. If you are trying to keep a space at 38F, your coil surface temperature will probably be 10F lower, or 28F. Obviously, this builds up frost as it operates. When the space point temperature is met, the fan will continue to run but the refrigerant flow stops. Since you are blowing 38F air over the coil, it melts the frost and lets it drip away.

You can't do this in a freezer. In a freezer, you are keeping the temperature at 0F or less. To defrost the coil, heat must be added. Heat trace would do it, but you will see it in your electric bill.

Placing a small freezer in there is looking better. Be careful with poking a hole so the freezer can see outside air. That means a penetration in your vapor barrier and that is hard to seal up. If there is a hole, you will get a lot of moisture in the summer and that could me mold inside your cooler. At the least, it will mean the compressor will have to work very hard to keep up.
Cool. Vapor on the warm side. Got it.

I am going to just put a freezer in the cooler. What I will do is build the back of the freezer flush with the outside of the frame, and spray foam the **** out of it where it meets up with the walls. I do not have my design program at my office, but I will make up a new drawing when I get home. I just can't wait to get out of my current house and get a fresh slate to make a nice brewing area with a bar and "Man Cave" in the basement.
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Old 01-13-2010, 05:40 PM   #19
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What exactly do you want the freezer section for? Does it really have to be integrated into the walk-in cooler design?

My 0.02: If you are going to use a refrigerator to cool the freezer unit, why not just go with a chest freezer and keep it separate? It seems like if you get rid of the integrated freezer idea, this project become much easier to work out and more doable.

Yeah, the freezer inside the cooler idea is a cool...but is it absolutely necessary?
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Old 01-13-2010, 05:42 PM   #20
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That may work for the freezer, but as the saying goes, "Penetration are Problems waiting to happen."

To be honest, you won't be taking a major penalty from having the "hot" air being a load on the cooler. Since the freezer is in the cooler, it won't be a large load, plus the compressor won't have to work very hard to compress refrigerant to discharge to the cool temperatures.

Its almost like single stage vs. two stage vapor compression systems. Wikipedia that to see what I mean. the difference is you are using air between the two refrigerant streams.

I guess I'm a KISS sort of guy. And just paneling up the back wall sounds easier than trying to poke holes, make seals, etc. Plus it would be easy to pull out as was previously mentioned.


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