Thinking of jumping into the wild - help please

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axp

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Hi all.

Have never brewed a lambic before and am halfway through wild brews. Would like some help and opinions to see if I have the process correct in my head. Does this sound ok for a lambic kriek?

1. I was thinking of creating a wort with 60% 2row, 40% wheat
2. Pitch WLP655 - Belgian sour mix
3. Leave for 6 - 12 months
4. Add cherries to primary
5. Leave for another 6 - 12 months
6. bottle and prime with corn sugar for a light carbonation
7. leave for a month to condition

Would it be better to pitch a general yeast for primary fermentation such as wlp001, then add the WLP655 sour mix the same time as the cherries? If this is the case I was thinking 2 weeks for primary with a standard yeast then 1+ year in secondary with cherries and wlp655 sour mix

Any comments would be appreciated, Andrew
 
Would it be better to pitch a general yeast for primary fermentation such as wlp001, then add the WLP655 sour mix the same time as the cherries? If this is the case I was thinking 2 weeks for primary with a standard yeast then 1+ year in secondary with cherries and wlp655 sour mix

Any comments would be appreciated, Andrew

I would do this. Maybe just a week, just when the bulk of the yeast starts to drop out. The brett can use the dead yeast for food. I would not a blanket "1+ year..." You should get a pellicle and then when it drops taste it. Keg when it tastes right.
 
Would it be better to pitch a general yeast for primary fermentation such as wlp001, then add the WLP655 sour mix the same time as the cherries?

Don't think so. I just read that WLP655 contains saccharomyces, so I don't believe there is any reason to use another primary yeast. In fact, since these blends are dependent upon a ratio of different yeast & bacteria, I gotta wonder if making a starter is actually a bad idea because it just inflates your saccharomyces amount.

I wussed out on my https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f72/lambic-style-kriek-102829/ and added a neutral ale yeast at the time of cherry addition due to limited initial airlock activity. Still wondering if that was correct decision.

I agree the Brett will benefit from having some dead yeast at bottom of vessel.
 
WLP655 does contain saccharomyces. Does that mean that I should pitch only the WLP655? If so when should I add cherries to the primary?

Beerific - you say keg when it taste right. Is it dangerous to bottle condition such a beer in case of bottle bombs?

Have any of you guys ever used WLP655 or WY3278? These strains seem to me to be an 'all in one' with a mixture of sacch, bret and other such bacteria. Are these ok or is it better to use separate bacteria strains?
 
It can and will create bottle bombs if you bottle a sour too quickly, and FYI 3mos is too quickly, only 3pts of gravity will make 3vols of CO2, if you already carb to 3vols another couple points off the FG will cause problems

this beer is gonna take awhile, there isnt much you can do about it

Both blends work well, and should be pitched into the primary but you really should augment them with the dregs from sour commercial beers, JP works well as does cuvee rene and both are usually available

As to when to add the cherries, it should be long after the primary fermenation has finished off - you want the brett and pedio to have the most access to the sugars from the cherries to produce more complexity and sourness, if you do it too soon the sacch will still be hanging around and will quickly eat all the sugar, a minimum of 6mos or so is usually a good amt of time to wait before adding the fruit, then leave it on the fruit another couple months, tasting and taking gravity readings after 1-2mos
 
I just posted a homebrew recipe from a belgian who studies lambics for a living as "An 'authentic' lambic recipe" you might want to check it out. Either way, I'd ferment with a regular ale yeast first, then add the funk.
 
Ive brewed quite a few lambics, and fermenting with a clean ale yeast always leaves the beer lacking in sourness and funky complexity, think about it, does cantillon or girardin ferment with cal ale then add bugs?? NO, they have bugs from the begining, you should also add the dregs of wild beer to increase the complexity of the culture and provide more flavor depth
 
I wouldn't age on the cherries that long. Start tasting at 3 months on the cherries until you reach the flavor you are looking for. Throwing all the bugs and sacc in at the same time would not be a bad idea. More funk should come out of it that way.
 
Thanks for all the replies. I think I'm beginning to understand the process now.

It is said in a few posts that the beer should be left on the cherries for about three months then taste and take hydrometer readings. My worry is how do I know that all the sugars from the cherries have been fermented. If they haven't of course, when I bottle I will get bombs. Does the same rule apply for lambics as for normal beers ie three constant hydrometer readings over three days means end of fermentation?

So after three months on the cherries if I get three constant hydrometer readings over three days is my lambic complete and all fermentables gone?
 
I would not trust readings over 3 days. More like 3 weeks. Those bugs are very, very slow.

I think if you use the Oregon fruit (link) they can tell you how much fermentable sugar they contribute. So you can more or less have an idea when it will be done. Also, it has been my experience (from my own sours and talking to others) that when the pelicle drops plus a month or two, you are essentially done as far as gravity. Flavor will still develop, but that can also happen in the bottle.

Here is some more information that might be helpful:
http://www.thebrewingnetwork.com/sh...c-Gueuze-Fruit-Lambic-The-Jamil-Show-06-02-08
http://thebrewingnetwork.com/shows/...Sunday-Session-06-08-08-Non-Traditional-Yeast
http://thebrewingnetwork.com/shows/...Sunday-Session-04-06-08-Homebrewing-Sour-Beer
I think there is really a lot of good information in these and will help you a lot.
 
I agree with beerific, its more like 3wks rather than 3days with a sour beer

A couple things to note though

1. a pellicle doesnt necessarily have to develop, it only happens in response to o2 in the headspace

2. if it does form, it doesnt always drop, I have 2 and 3yr old lambics that never dropped a pellicle and are stable, so trust the hydrometer, also remember to degas your sample

3. Dont rule out blending, you can take a good beer to new heights like this, if you do it with a young beer its a good idea to fine and then campden the sour beer prior to blending
 
Also remember that we aren't tasting your beer. Sample it along with readings until the numbers are constant. Then sample for a while until you get the flavors you are looking for in your beer. There is no exact formula when dealing with bugs and critters.
 
Thanks for the info guys this is great stuff.

ryane - you say that a pellicle forms in reponse to headspace. For lambics is it therefore best to not use an airlock and have the beer exposed to the air? Or should I use an airlock as i would for a standard beer
 
no it forms in response to O2 in the headspace, either keep an airlock on there or like I do, you can put a wood dowel in the rubber stopper to allow small amts of O2 to get to the beer - this isnt particularily necessary though, you dont need a pellicle to sour a beer
 
WLP655 does contain saccharomyces. Does that mean that I should pitch only the WLP655? If so when should I add cherries to the primary?

Beerific - you say keg when it taste right. Is it dangerous to bottle condition such a beer in case of bottle bombs?

Have any of you guys ever used WLP655 or WY3278? These strains seem to me to be an 'all in one' with a mixture of sacch, bret and other such bacteria. Are these ok or is it better to use separate bacteria strains?
I primaried with both WY3278 and WY3763 simultaneously and fermented for 5 weeks at 70F. Racked to secondary, and let it sit in a hot room of my house for 3 hot summer months. When the beer was 6 months old I attempted to keg it. It tasted like sweet butter. Racked it out of the keg to glass and let it sit for another 4 months, then added merlot grapes and dregs from commercial bottles and let it sit for another 4 months. After a total of a year and a half from when it was brewed, the beer tasted like a Cantillon St. Lamvinus. I'm letting it age another year. And its an extract beer too. Crazy!
 
Think I'm gonna go for it then. Will use the White Labs Sour Mix as I can easily get hold of that here in the UK. WYeast less easily.

After reading through your comments I think I'll pitch this at the start in the primary and let it go for a year.

Is it OK to add cherries to the primary or should I rack the beer onto the cherries in a different vessel? I heard that the brett likes the dorment yeast trub so was thinking of just bunging the cherries into the primary and letting it go for another 4 months or so and then tasting.

Can't wait to get started with this. Though the turbid mash looks a little more complicated than the infusion mash I am used to.

Oh and a final question on carbonation. I know this is a LONG way down the line but if I add priming sugar to carbonate the beer when bottle conditioning, should I add another yeast strain at this time or another vial of the white labs sour mix? My thinking is after 2 years all yeast will be dead and there will be nothing to ferment the priming sugar to carbonate the beer.
 
I repitched some notty yeast on my lambic just because I was impatient and didn't want to wait a few months to get carbonation. From what I understand the Brett will eventually eat all of the priming sugar and carbonate the bottles, but it might be a month or two.

I would rack the beer onto cherries after a few months just because you might drive off some of the aromatics of the cherries during the primary fermentation.

Also, if you are dead set on a turbid mash then go for it... however, I don't see a big benefit to turbid over a high mash temp (158*F) single infusion. I'm sure there will be differences, but I certainly don't think a turbid mash is necessary to get a good tasting lambic.
 
Is it OK to add cherries to the primary or should I rack the beer onto the cherries in a different vessel? I heard that the brett likes the dorment yeast trub so was thinking of just bunging the cherries into the primary and letting it go for another 4 months or so and then tasting..

Yes, although make sure you have sufficient headspace so you dont clog the mouth of the carboy, last thing you want to do is loose a 1yr+ old batch

Can't wait to get started with this. Though the turbid mash looks a little more complicated than the infusion mash I am used to..

A turbid mash isnt necessary, and Wyeast has a modified turbid mash schedule posted on their website to make things easier. I havent done side by side tastings but single infusions make a pretty good beer, Ive also added unfermentables to some beers like maltodextrin to ensure there is lots of food for bugs in there

Its also a good idea to feed the beer as fermentation progresses

Oh and a final question on carbonation. I know this is a LONG way down the line but if I add priming sugar to carbonate the beer when bottle conditioning, should I add another yeast strain at this time or another vial of the white labs sour mix? My thinking is after 2 years all yeast will be dead and there will be nothing to ferment the priming sugar to carbonate the beer.

You can to make sure it carbs quickly, but I generally dont add anything, I do usually let the bottles sit 6mos or so before opening them though, partially to ensure carbonation but mostly becasue theres always a weird grainy kind of flavor that seems to develop in the bottle while its young

When you carbonate, you also need to remember that all carbonation calculators assume there is CO2 in solution, while you beer will be nearly completely devoid of CO2 (relative to what they assume is in there) due to extended aging, so you need to prime higher than it says to ensure adequate carbonation
 
When you carbonate, you also need to remember that all carbonation calculators assume there is CO2 in solution, while you beer will be nearly completely devoid of CO2 (relative to what they assume is in there) due to extended aging, so you need to prime higher than it says to ensure adequate carbonation

The only way it would be devoid of CO2 is if you pull a vacuum on the carboy. Residual co2 calcs are based on the partial pressure of ambient air.

The only other comment I have is that if you don't see a pellicle form, it is a good indication that there's not much o2 getting in. In that case, you'll have less of an acetic sour character and more funky barnyard. I think the oak dowel trick is a reaonable o2 diffuser, but I wouldn't have it submerge into the wort.
 
The only way it would be devoid of CO2 is if you pull a vacuum on the carboy. Residual co2 calcs are based on the partial pressure of ambient air.
.

This isnt entirely true, Ive brewed many many sours and I think other people will tell you this as well, the problem a lot of times on older (1yr+) sours when priming is to actually carbonate to adequate levels, I understand the CO2 levels are dependent on the partial pressure of the gas in the atmosphere, that henry's law at its simplest, but dissolved co2 is also a function of pH, lower pH = less dissolved CO2, however due to the kpa of co2 species it should be constant below 5.5 and all should be in the form of H2CO3 (forgive me for rambling thinking while i type) so theoretically what you said should be true, however you have to remember that henry's law constants arent exactly constants and things like density pH etc can swing them one way or the other

To be honest I hadnt given much thought to the science basis for it, but maybe I should now....I always had to really think about aqueous CO2 concentrations because of how the gas acts like a weak acid depending on pH

A couple interesting things I found while looking for an answer

http://www.iul-instruments.de/pdf/vitalsensors_2.pdf

http://www.anton-paar.com/001/en/Web/Document/download/702?clng=en
 
no it forms in response to O2 in the headspace, either keep an airlock on there or like I do, you can put a wood dowel in the rubber stopper to allow small amts of O2 to get to the beer - this isnt particularily necessary though, you dont need a pellicle to sour a beer

Hey Ryane, dumb question...the wood dowel, should it be long enough to be submerged into the beer?
 
Hey Ryane, dumb question...the wood dowel, should it be long enough to be submerged into the beer?

Hmm thats actually something Ive seen and done both ways, to be honest I havent really noticed a difference either way, except what might be a bit more evaporation submerging the dowel, maybe someone else can weigh in with their own opinion on that subject as its something Ive been thinking about myself.

I cant see it making much difference because really the only point of the dowel is to let o2 in, and isnt really for the purpose of adding oak flavor, cubes do that very well if you want that, dry vs wet would probably just be a difference in o2 let into the carboy and even if that does make a difference it may be difficult to tease out because of the variability in wild beers from one batch to another because of the quantity/ratio of the various bugs in each batch
 
This is a great and timely topic, I was just going to ask some similar questions. Thanks for getting the ball rolling AXP!

Not trying to hijack the thread, just contribute to the overall knowledge. It would be great if you knowledgable in this topic created a sticky for "where do I start"

I've never tried to brew a "wild brew", I'm still working on my all-grain technique and getting my mash effeciency dialed in.

This came up for me because I bought one of the 5 gallon oak barrels from this thread and wanted to know what to do with my barrel when I'm done aging beer in it.
 
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