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Old 06-05-2012, 12:19 AM   #681
Brewskii
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May 2011
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There is a school of thought that you pull more for your decoction then needed so you are certian to hit your target temp when adding it back. Any left over you would continue to let cool until it reaches the same temp as the mash and add it back.



 
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Old 06-05-2012, 03:15 PM   #682
Gothic_Horror
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Mar 2012
Chicago, Illinois
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brewskii View Post
There is a school of thought that you pull more for your decoction then needed so you are certian to hit your target temp when adding it back. Any left over you would continue to let cool until it reaches the same temp as the mash and add it back.
This I guess is what I was referring to, I watched a BrauKaiser video where he does a decoction and he had leftover liquid after having raised the temp. I appreciate the response.



Reason: spelling

 
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Old 06-06-2012, 10:55 AM   #683
Frikkieman
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Jun 2012
Cape Town, Somerset West
Posts: 26

Decoction Mash, Double
Step Time Name Description Step Temp
10 min Protein Rest Add 32.00 qt of water at 137.5 F 132.0 F
30 min Saccharification Decoct 8.79 qt of mash and boil it 151.0 F
30 min Saccharification Decoct 4.85 qt of mash and boil it 159.0 F

Ok, so I'm a long time lurker, first time poster. I understand most of what goes on here, haha. But I just have to say, man, I've been eyeing this recipe for a looong time. I want to make this for my brothers wedding but I just want to check some things. This is for the The Pious Traditional btw.

I use a coolerbox mash tun setup btw. Ok, so according to my veeeery basic understanding this is what I get from this recipe, please correct me if I'm wrong. You grind up all the grains and mash in, with 32 quarts of 137.5F water, which settles at 132F. Then leave it to soak for 10min at 132F. Then I proceed to remove 8.79 quarts of said mash and bring it to the boil, however long that takes. I then pour the 8.79 quarts back (or whatever is left) into the coolerbox and mix, with the idea that it will raise the temperature to 151F. I leave this to rest for 30min. After the 30min, I remove another 4.85 quarts and bring that to the boil, chuck it back in, to raise the temp to 159F this time and leave it for another 30 minutes. After the 30min I sparge (not even sure if I need to, 32 quarts is alot of water). I then boil, adding hops accordingly. Im not sure when in the boil I should add the syrup. Then ferment according to the explanation (that I at least understand).

Am I correct in my thoughts. Would really appreciate some help. Thanks

 
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Old 06-06-2012, 12:01 PM   #684
g-star
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Feb 2010
PA
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You have to pull the thick part of the mash (leave most of the enzymes behind in the watery part). When you heat the decoction, you should rest it at a sachcrification temp for a bit (10-20min) to convert any starches present before boiling it.

When adding the boiling decoction back to the main mash, do so in parts with stirring, to be sure you don't over-shoot your sach. rest temp in the main mash.

 
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Old 06-06-2012, 01:41 PM   #685
Brewskii
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May 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g-star
When you heat the decoction, you should rest it at a sachcrification temp for a bit (10-20min) to convert any starches present before boiling it.
.
I don't believe this should be a concern when using modern base malts. By boiling the starches you are adding color and flavor (insert Malliard blah-blah-blah here) but additionally you are solubilizing the starch so that the liquified enzymes you left behind in the thin part of the mash can more easily break it down to fermentables when you add it back to the mash tun and you are at conversion rest.
By converting it prior to boiling it you would be in effect, negating the purpose of the decoction and doing a standard wort boil; yes?

 
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Old 06-06-2012, 04:46 PM   #686
g-star
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Feb 2010
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No. You get the Malliard reactions from boiling reducing sugars in the presence of amino acids. These sugars must first be created by enzymatic reduction of starches (the sach. rest before boiling).

A reducing sugar (like maltose) has an open-chain form with an aldehyde group or a free hemiacetal group. Boiling un-coverted starches defeats the purposes of decoction mashing if your goal is increased color/flavor. It might work following your logic if you just want conversion, though.

 
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Old 06-06-2012, 05:02 PM   #687
Brewskii
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May 2011
Williamsburg, Va
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g-star
No. You get the Malliard reactions from boiling reducing sugars in the presence of amino acids. These sugars must first be created by enzymatic reduction of starches (the sach. rest before boiling).

A reducing sugar (like maltose) has an open-chain form with an aldehyde group or a free hemiacetal group. Boiling un-coverted starches defeats the purposes of decoction mashing if your goal is increased color/flavor. It might work following your logic if you just want conversion, though.
Roger that.... I understand the Malliard deal, but in all my encounters with decoction discussions I'd never heard any talk of conversion in the decoction itself, I thought it was more about gelatinization of the starch for conversion and as a bonus there was a flavor/ color impact. Otherwise you would only need to extend the boil or make a reduction of some wort runnings (which is a technique that appears in this thread as I recall).
I can see where your method would have some merit though, I just never thought of it in those terms before.

 
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Old 06-07-2012, 08:21 AM   #688
Frikkieman
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Jun 2012
Cape Town, Somerset West
Posts: 26

Ah. Thanks for all the info, I didn't know that I was only supposed to boil the thick part of the mash. But I just want to know if my reasoning, in the above post, surrounding the decoction mash, is correct or not. Concerning the temperature increases via boiling, chucking back and the 30 minute waiting periods.

Thanks

 
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Old 06-07-2012, 11:29 AM   #689
CSI
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Jan 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g-star View Post
Boiling un-coverted starches defeats the purposes of decoction.
Decoction is more than the boiling of starches. Also, using decoction as a conversion event in a slow boil for 'this recipe' is moot and is a mistake. You simply will not get the flavor result from the decoction if you're slow cooking it like oatmeal. Proof's in the making...try it both ways.

 
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Old 06-11-2012, 01:26 AM   #690
BuffaloBeer1
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Mar 2012
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Well, I couldn't sleep past 6am on a Sunday morning. What better thing to do than brew some coffee and a beer that you can't enjoy until the end of summer. I pitched the New World version onto a yeast cake from a Dubbel I had made with a 1 L starter of the Wyeast strain. The Dubbel came out fantastic (I was sipping on the left overs all day that didn't fit into the secondary carboy). Now less than 6 hours later this Quad is happily bubbling away. I figure that should be a big enough starter to get it down low enough in a week.

I used a anti-foam powder on this one (because the Krausen on my Dubbel was flowing steadily out the blowoff). Has anyone had experience with this stuff? Do I need to keep an eye on the blowoff tube clogging?



 
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