First Wort Hopping - Home Brew Forums
Home Brew Forums > Home Brewing Beer > General Techniques > First Wort Hopping

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 08-16-2009, 07:59 AM   #1
hazard
Recipes 
 
Aug 2009
australia
Posts: 7


Mod Edit: I've moved these to their own thread.

I love hobgoblin - and since I've seen Orfy's recipe on a few different forums when I was looking for a recipe, it seems to be very popular - therefore this is definitely the one I will run with.
However I got a question about FWH. I've tried this technique, with some success, but always as a substitute for late hops and still using bittering hops. Orfy's recipe calls for FWH AND late hops, but no separate bittering hops. Some sources (eg John Palmer) say that FWH only has bitterness equivalent to a 20 min addition. What is experience of those who used this recipe - Orfy, if you are still out, what do you think?



 
Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2009, 09:48 PM   #2
hopvine
Recipes 
 
Mar 2009
Holland, MI
Posts: 261
Liked 6 Times on 5 Posts


Quote:
Originally Posted by hazard View Post
I love hobgoblin - and since I've seen Orfy's recipe on a few different forums when I was looking for a recipe, it seems to be very popular - therefore this is definitely the one I will run with.
However I got a question about FWH. I've tried this technique, with some success, but always as a substitute for late hops and still using bittering hops. Orfy's recipe calls for FWH AND late hops, but no separate bittering hops. Some sources (eg John Palmer) say that FWH only has bitterness equivalent to a 20 min addition. What is experience of those who used this recipe - Orfy, if you are still out, what do you think?
I think you're confusing FWH with mash hopping. FWH involves adding the hops to the first runnings from your MLT into the boil kettle, and leaving the hops there for the boil (therefore INCREASING utilization). Mash hopping, on the other hand, involves adding the hops to the MLT but leaving them with the spent grain (hence the 20% utilization).



 
Reply With Quote
Old 10-18-2009, 08:12 PM   #3
TerapinChef
 
TerapinChef's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Nov 2007
St. Clair Shores, MI, Michigan
Posts: 1,021
Liked 7 Times on 7 Posts


No I too have heard that the flavor profile of the FWH is more of a late addition than a bittering.
__________________


See My Profile for Current Brews

My 3/4 Ton Brewstand "Build"

The Belgian Lady Brewery

 
Reply With Quote
Old 10-21-2009, 12:30 AM   #4
hazard
Recipes 
 
Aug 2009
australia
Posts: 7

Quote:
Originally Posted by hopvine View Post
I think you're confusing FWH with mash hopping. FWH involves adding the hops to the first runnings from your MLT into the boil kettle, and leaving the hops there for the boil (therefore INCREASING utilization). Mash hopping, on the other hand, involves adding the hops to the MLT but leaving them with the spent grain (hence the 20% utilization).
No mate, no confusion. I mean First wort hopping, and your description of this technique is accurate. In his book "How to Brew" john Palmer quotes that FWH gives a bitterness equal to 20 min boil. My question is, what are othersexperience with FWH. I have tried it, but not in a controlled way so am not able to determine an equivalent boil time for myself. What I have noticed, is that FWH in addition to 60min hops gives noticeable flavour and aroma that would not be expected if you did 60 min boil alone - hence the suggestion that FWH replaces later additions. The hypothesis is that since wort is at mash temp, and not boiling, the essential oils that give flavour and aroma are not boiled away as they are if hops thrown straight into kettle but instead are "transformed" into more stable compounds that survive the boil - I assume that something also happens to alpha acids, which somehow reduces the utilisation (if Palmer is correct).

So I have verified flavour and aroma to my satisfaction, but have not been able to verify the reduction in utilisation and equivalent boil time for FWH. Hope this is clear, and not to be confused with mash hopping.

 
Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2009, 11:15 AM   #5
hopvine
Recipes 
 
Mar 2009
Holland, MI
Posts: 261
Liked 6 Times on 5 Posts


Quote:
Originally Posted by hazard View Post
No mate, no confusion. I mean First wort hopping, and your description of this technique is accurate. In his book "How to Brew" john Palmer quotes that FWH gives a bitterness equal to 20 min boil. My question is, what are othersexperience with FWH. I have tried it, but not in a controlled way so am not able to determine an equivalent boil time for myself. What I have noticed, is that FWH in addition to 60min hops gives noticeable flavour and aroma that would not be expected if you did 60 min boil alone - hence the suggestion that FWH replaces later additions. The hypothesis is that since wort is at mash temp, and not boiling, the essential oils that give flavour and aroma are not boiled away as they are if hops thrown straight into kettle but instead are "transformed" into more stable compounds that survive the boil - I assume that something also happens to alpha acids, which somehow reduces the utilisation (if Palmer is correct).

So I have verified flavour and aroma to my satisfaction, but have not been able to verify the reduction in utilisation and equivalent boil time for FWH. Hope this is clear, and not to be confused with mash hopping.
Ok, I think I see where your confusion is stemming from. Palmer recommends using no more than 30% of your total hop additions for a FWH, and suggests using some of the low alpha hops that you intended to add as flavoring hops.

http://www.howtobrew.com/section1/chapter5-1.html

He never says that you get less bitterness using the FWH method vs. adding to the boil at 60 min. If you added your first addition of BITTERING hops as a FWH addition, you would actually end up getting MORE bitterness than a 60 minute addition (since those hops are going to steep in warm water, then gradually increase in temperature to a boil, and then boil for 60 minutes).

 
Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2009, 03:00 PM   #6
wildwest450
Registered User
Recipes 
 
Dec 2007
Posts: 9,043
Liked 173 Times on 158 Posts


Quote:
Originally Posted by hopvine View Post
If you added your first addition of BITTERING hops as a FWH addition, you would actually end up getting MORE bitterness than a 60 minute addition (since those hops are going to steep in warm water, then gradually increase in temperature to a boil, and then boil for 60 minutes).
Maybe on paper, but it doesn't translate to the beer. I've not been happy with the results of fwh my bittering hops, This is on ipas and pales, which to me are reliant on crisp hop taste. Not the "rounded" more subdued taste that you actually get.

Now using a portion of late addition hops, for fwh, that's a different story.

To the op, for your recipe, I don't see a problem with the fwh, although it's not for me.

 
Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2009, 03:07 PM   #7
hopvine
Recipes 
 
Mar 2009
Holland, MI
Posts: 261
Liked 6 Times on 5 Posts


Quote:
Originally Posted by wildwest450 View Post
Maybe on paper, but it doesn't translate to the beer. I've not been happy with the results of fwh my bittering hops, This is on ipas and pales, which to me are reliant on crisp hop taste. Not the "rounded" more subdued taste that you actually get.

Now using a portion of late addition hops, for fwh, that's a different story.

To the op, for your recipe, I don't see a problem with the fwh, although it's not for me.
This is a pretty interesting thread regarding an analysis that was done to determine the difference in taste and IBU's:
http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f36/firs...er-sort-50941/

A lab analysis of the actual beers confirmed that the IBU's were higher in a FWH'd beer. However, once you get into the territory of describing the "crispness" of bitterness, you lose a measurable metric and it becomes a bit more subjective.


 
Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2009, 03:56 PM   #8
TexLaw
Here's Lookin' Atcha!
HBT_LIFETIMESUPPORTER.png
 
TexLaw's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Sep 2007
Houston, Texas
Posts: 3,672
Liked 27 Times on 26 Posts


I FWH nearly all my beers, now, and I have been very pleased with it. I do find the bitterness less than with a 60 minute boil (at least, the perceived bitterness), but it is far more than a 20 minute boil. The bitterness also is much smoother. More hop aroma and flavor is preserved than a simple, early boil addition. However, FWH is no substitute for late addition hops.

There is no way to quantify how much perceived aroma and flavor remains. You just need to give it a try.


TL
__________________
Beer is good for anything from hot dogs to heartache.

Drinking Frog Brewery, est. 1993

 
Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2009, 04:18 PM   #9
Orfy
For the love of beer!
HBT_LIFETIMESUPPORTER.png
 
Orfy's Avatar
Recipes 
 
Sep 2005
Cheshire, England
Posts: 11,732
Liked 94 Times on 62 Posts


I like it. I like bitterness but smooth bitterness.
__________________
GET THE GOBLIN
Have a beer on me.

 
Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2009, 04:54 PM   #10
wildwest450
Registered User
Recipes 
 
Dec 2007
Posts: 9,043
Liked 173 Times on 158 Posts


Quote:
Originally Posted by hopvine View Post
This is a pretty interesting thread regarding an analysis that was done to determine the difference in taste and IBU's:
http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f36/firs...er-sort-50941/

A lab analysis of the actual beers confirmed that the IBU's were higher in a FWH'd beer. However, once you get into the territory of describing the "crispness" of bitterness, you lose a measurable metric and it becomes a bit more subjective.
Yes, i've read this and I understand the point, I have more than casual experience with fwh(bittering additions), and don't care for it with certain beer styles. It certainly has it's place in brewing, but is misunderstood by many. If you fwh your bittering addition and think it will translate into increased bitterness taste wise, you are mistaken. In this case the numbers do lie.



 
Reply With Quote
Reply
Thread Tools


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
First wort hopping...again SpanishCastleAle All Grain & Partial Mash Brewing 20 01-28-2009 08:21 PM
First Wort Hopping vs Mash Hopping Evan General Techniques 4 07-18-2008 11:13 AM
First wort hopping and mash hopping Dr_Deathweed General Techniques 4 03-18-2008 02:41 PM
Mash Hopping & First Wort Hopping texasgeorge All Grain & Partial Mash Brewing 6 01-14-2007 06:22 PM
First Wort Hopping Darth Konvel All Grain & Partial Mash Brewing 5 10-20-2005 12:46 AM


Forum Jump