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Old 09-21-2006, 02:38 AM   #11
Biermann
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word bro.
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Old 09-21-2006, 09:28 AM   #12
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I agree Mikey, every book and recipe I've read says to start at room temp until fermentation is started(usually 12-24 hrs) then move to lagering temps. I always assumed that they knew more than me so That's how I've always done it. Never had a problem. Also, I always heard that fusil alcohols escape during the boil and that is one of the reasons you should not cover the brewpot when boiling. Just my $.02
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Old 09-21-2006, 10:07 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikey
Well, it's nice to finally meet a brewer that knows everything and is comfortable enough with his knowledge to be able to laugh at others.

Have a read of this from the Wyeast site (scroll most of the way down the page)

http://www.wyeastlab.com/beprlist.htm#pac

or just read the following cut and paste:



To pitch the yeast: clean the container or package with sanitizing solution. Shake well. Open, and pour the yeast into the fermenter.


Aerate well by stirring vigorously. Seal fermenter with airlock. Keep at 75º F until fermentation begins. Then cool to desired temperature. Signs of fermentation should be evident within one day, depending on yeast strain, brewing procedures, and fermentation temperatures.


FERMENTATION TEMPERATURE RANGE
Ale yeast 60-72 º F; Lager yeast 46-58º F.


Why not email them at [email protected] so you can laugh at them directly?


Before that, have a read on the FAQ page where it talks about deliberately fermenting a beer at room temperatures with lager yeast.

http://www.wyeastlab.com/faqs/faqmain.htm
I'm not laughing at anyone but you are quoting a yeast supplier who don't provide the optimun amount of yeast to pitch to a lager and so need the warm temps to grow a lot of yeast in a hurry. In New Brewing Lager Beer by Noonan he says to pitch fermentation temp yeast into fermentation temp wort. It's not only him that says this. I kinda like to think these are experts in beer brewing and do know what they are talking about.

Try Fix in Principals of Brewing Science, Papazian and Palmer.
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Old 09-21-2006, 12:08 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boo boo
I'm not laughing at anyone but you are quoting a yeast supplier who don't provide the optimun amount of yeast to pitch to a lager and so need the warm temps to grow a lot of yeast in a hurry. In New Brewing Lager Beer by Noonan he says to pitch fermentation temp yeast into fermentation temp wort. It's not only him that says this. I kinda like to think these are experts in beer brewing and do know what they are talking about.

Try Fix in Principals of Brewing Science, Papazian and Palmer.
If you read the full text provided by the link, it first gives instructions on how to step up the yeast to make a full volume stater. The paragraph I cut and pasted follows that, and assumes that a full starter is already available.

I know Greg Noonan and have discussed this and other things with him during visits to his brewpub. His view point is that you 'can' do it one way, but not you 'must' do it one way. There's a big difference.

Many of us prefer to start a lager at room temperature to avoid the long lag time. I've been doing it for years and have never had a beer contaminated by fusel alchohols and with any hint of unsuitable esters.

Maybe I should start a post stating that I laugh at people who try to get a fermentation going at 50*F because the long lead tiimes leads to contamination.

 
Old 09-21-2006, 01:34 PM   #15
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Round 3: Ding! Ding!

Ok now that we got that straightened out. Can I ask of you experts advice on Steam Beer.

Will I get a good tasting brew using Lager yeast at ale temps? - I read the FAQ provided in previous posts but the conclusion was that you will get a fruity tasting beer and fermentation but not as good.

Can you all elaborate? I read historys on California Commons and havea desire to brew my next batch. Some advice in yeast would be greatly appreciated.

- WW

 
Old 09-21-2006, 01:46 PM   #16
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Wilson,

As I don't have the infrastructure to do a true lager, I made a 'Steamaibock' on my very first brewing session.

It turned out quite well (and it gets better with a couple months of bottle conditioning); you can certainly tell that it h'aint a lager by the subtle fruity notes, but it's still a very good beer. Just not as clean or crisp as it would be if I had lagered it. But remember, the fruity notes are very subtle, it's not a "fruity-tasting beer" by any stretch. Go for it. RDWHAHB.
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Old 09-21-2006, 01:47 PM   #17
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dougjones got PWNED!
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.planned:
•Scottish 80/- •Sweet Stout •Roggenbier
.primary | bright:
98: Moss Hollow Soured '09 72: Oude Kriek 99: B-Weisse 102: Brett'd BDSA 104: Feat of Strength Helles Bock 105: Merkin Brown
.on tap | kegged:
XX: Moss Hollow Springs Sparkling Water 95: Gott Mit Uns German Pils 91b: Brown Willie's Oaked Abbey Ale 103: Merkin Stout
98: Yorkshire Special 100: Maple Porter 89: Cidre Saison 101: Steffiweizen '09 (#3)

 
Old 09-21-2006, 02:47 PM   #18
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You guys are a trip.

OF course you can brew a beer at many different temps and get many different outcomes. That is how different beers were discovered.

Fermenting Lager Yeast at ale temps is only accomplished by using special strains of yeast that have the ability to ferment semi-clean at high temps. Otherwise it would be a mess.

White Labs is not the know-all of brewing. Yes, they suggest pitching at 75 degrees. But they are also a business who wants to keep the complaints down to a minimum. They want fermentations to happen quickly and strong. So they advise the people to start off the lagers at a high temp so that they take off. If you think about it you can see their reasoning, but it does not make them right.

Will it work? Yes. Will it be the best beer you can make? No. But they do not care. Most homebrewers encounter off-tastes frequently so White-labs knows that the homebrewers will not blame their pitching temp as the cause of any off-tastes.

Pitching a lager yeast @ 75 degrees will make fusel alcohols and esters. Now the amount of it that it will make is going to vary by the ingredients and brewing/prep process. In the end it will probably only be a small amount, but it will affect flavor.

Will it make it undrinkable....probably not, but I strive to make the best beer I can, so I avoid things that I know will cause little problems that can become big ones.


You could brew a lager @ 105 degrees in July, and it may turn out to be a wonderful new type of ale that is unique and everyone loves, But the odds are very slim.

You can do whatever you want while brewing beer. If the end product makes you happy then have at it. I surmise that you must take the advice of hundreds of years of brewmeisters if you want to succeed in making good beer.

But a blind hog does find an acorn every once in a while.


 
Old 09-21-2006, 02:55 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2nd Street Brewery
I agree Mikey, every book and recipe I've read says to start at room temp until fermentation is started(usually 12-24 hrs) then move to lagering temps. I always assumed that they knew more than me so That's how I've always done it. Never had a problem. Also, I always heard that fusil alcohols escape during the boil and that is one of the reasons you should not cover the brewpot when boiling. Just my $.02

Fusel alcohol or alcohol of any type is not formed until after yeast is introduced so it cannot escape during the boil. What you are refering to is dimethyl sulfide which contributes a cooked cabbage or corn-like flavor to the beer. This is boiled off during the wort boil. SO you should always boil your wort with the lid off!


 
Old 09-21-2006, 03:03 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikey
Many of us prefer to start a lager at room temperature to avoid the long lag time. I've been doing it for years and have never had a beer contaminated by fusel alchohols and with any hint of unsuitable esters.

Maybe I should start a post stating that I laugh at people who try to get a fermentation going at 50*F because the long lead tiimes leads to contamination.

You may not taste the fusel alcohol or esters but they are there in varying amounts. Your beer would taste cleaner if you pitched at lower temps. You should try it and see.

Long lead times are not a problem if you pitch sufficient yeast and contamination is not a problem during lag times if your fermenter is sealed and your brewing process is sanitary.


 
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