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KingBrianI

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 23, 2008
Messages
3,513
Reaction score
156
Location
Wake Forest, NC
Recipe Type
All Grain
Yeast
WY2124/WLP830/SafLager W-34/70
Yeast Starter
yes
Batch Size (Gallons)
5.5
Original Gravity
1.059
Final Gravity
1.014
Boiling Time (Minutes)
90
IBU
25
Color
7-8
Primary Fermentation (# of Days & Temp)
21 days @ 50 F
Secondary Fermentation (# of Days & Temp)
8 weeks @ 38 F
Tasting Notes
Wonderfully malty, with just enough bitterness to balance the slight sweetness.
Maerzen
Oktoberfest/Marzen


Type: All Grain
Date: 3/14/2009
Batch Size: 5.50 gal
Brewer: Brian
Boil Size: 8.75 gal Asst Brewer: Scott
Boil Time: 90 min Equipment: 15 Gallon Kettle and 10 gal Rubbermaid MLT
Taste Rating(out of 50): 42.0 Brewhouse Efficiency: 85.00
Taste Notes:

Ingredients

Amount Item Type % or IBU
5.00 lb Vienna Malt (3.5 SRM) Grain 47.62 %
3.00 lb Munich Malt (5.5 SRM) Grain 28.57 %
2.50 lb Pilsner (2 Row) Ger (2.0 SRM) Grain 23.81 %
1.80 oz Hallertauer Hersbrucker [4.00 %] (60 min) Hops 25.3 IBU
1 Pkgs Bohemian Lager (Wyeast Labs #2124) [Starter] Yeast-Lager



Beer Profile

Est Original Gravity: 1.059 SG
Measured Original Gravity: 1.062 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.016 SG Measured Final Gravity: 1.014 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 5.57 % Actual Alcohol by Vol: 6.27 %
Bitterness: 25.3 IBU Calories: 278 cal/pint
Est Color: 5.7 SRM Color: Color


Mash Profile

Mash Name: Decoction Mash, Double Total Grain Weight: 10.50 lb
Sparge Water: 0.49 gal Grain Temperature: 65.0 F
Sparge Temperature: 168.0 F TunTemperature: 65.0 F
Adjust Temp for Equipment: TRUE Mash PH: 5.4 PH

Decoction Mash, Double Step Time Name Description Step Temp
1. 60 min Step Add 18.90 qt of water at 102.6 F 97.0 F
After 20 minutes, pull the decoction in step 2 and begin heating it up, stopping at 133 and 160 for about 20 minutes each for the protein and saccharification rests. Boil the decoction for 10 minutes, then slowly add enough back to the MLT to bring the temperature up to 133. Continue boiling the rest of the decoction for another 15 minutes. Then slowly add the decoction to the MLT until you achieve saccharification rest temperatures.

2. 60 min Step Decoct 11.32 qt of mash and boil it 150.0 F
When 15 minutes is left in the saccharification rest, begin step 3.

3. 15 min Step Decoct 7.10 qt of mash and boil it 170.0 F

Vorlauf and drain first runnings. Then I batch sparge with:

10 min Step Add 10.00 qt of water at 170.0 F 170.0 F
10 min Step Add 10.00 qt of water at 170.0 F 170.0 F

The decoction looks complicated but it is just the Enhanced Double Decoction as described on the wiki here: Decoction mash - Home Brewing Wiki

I chose that particular decoction because it allows a large percentage of the mash to be boiled in order to maximize the decoction flavors, while allowing as short a time as you wish at protein rest temperatures.

Brew software will estimate the color around 5.7 SRM but I found you gain several points of darkness during the decoction. It is still on the lighter side of the style.

I'm really happy with this beer. It's formulated using a strategy I've found to be hugely successful lately: simplicity. Three base grains, one hop and a big clean flavor that really showcases the malts. This is an easy-drinker that just about everyone loves and that is perfect for those drinking sessions that go late into the night.

I brewed it in March with plans of drinking in September/October, as is traditional for Märzens, but it's so good it will be tough holding out that long!

Oh, and by the way, the name is a bit pretentious, but it rhymes and it really is damn good!:p

DSC_0660.jpg
 
Looks tasty. What temp do you pitch the yeast at?

Do DD mashes typically yield a higher brewhouse efficiency? I've been pulling 62-72% with my single temp infusions.
 
Looks tasty. What temp do you pitch the yeast at?

Do DD mashes typically yield a higher brewhouse efficiency? I've been pulling 62-72% with my single temp infusions.

I pitch the yeast at 50 F but you've gotta make a big starter. I have noticed an increase of about 5% when doing decoction mashes over single infusion mashes.
 
That looks good, but you wouldn't hold it against me if I just went to Munich in September would you? :D

Not at all! I'm envious!

Fermentation schedule?

The basic schedule is above in the bolded part at the top of the recipe. It really depends on your particular circumstances though. I leave it at 50 until it is somewhere between 1.020-1.025, at which point I raised it to 58 for the diacetyl rest. Left it at 58 until the gravity stopped dropping, typically 3-4 days. Then I started slowly ramping it back down to 50. Once it had been at 50 for a couple days, I racked to secondary, and began slowly ramping down to 38. Once at 38, leave it for 2 months to lager. But it gets even better if after that, you keg it and leave the keg at 38-50 degrees for several more months!
 
Cool that's the info I wanted thanks!

Why do you leave it at 50º for a few days before racking? I figured I would drop the temps down to lager temp, then rack to remove as much as possible.

???
 
I do it in order to allow a little extra yeast to fall out and because I've heard that you want as much CO2 in the beer as possible for lagering and I felt like if it was at 50 for a couple days, the CO2 would be better absorbed in the beer. It probably makes no difference though, so I'm sure you'll be fine doing like you described.
 
Ok, I am going to make this beer this weekend, and it will be my first attempt at an all grain lager. I want to get your decoction schedule correct.

Dough in 18.9 quarts of 102.6F water which will give me about a 97F mash.
Let sit for about how long 60 min?
Remove 11.32 quarts of water (decoction #1) and heat to boiling.
No Protein or Sac rest for decoction?, or for main mash?
Add all the 11.32 quarts of boiling decoction #1 back to main mash to raise temp of main mash to 150F.
Let sit for 60 min?
Remove 7.1 quarts from main mash and heat to boiling (decoction #2). Return to main mash after a short boil.
The temp of the main mash should now be about 170 degrees for mash out.

I have almost the same set up as you do, (15 gallon boil pot with 10 gallon cooler) but I fly sparge. So any technique advice you could give would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks, I can't wait to give this beer a shot.
Looks wonderful.
 
Ok, I am going to make this beer this weekend, and it will be my first attempt at an all grain lager. I want to get your decoction schedule correct.

Dough in 18.9 quarts of 102.6F water which will give me about a 97F mash.
Let sit for about how long 60 min?
Remove 11.32 quarts of water (decoction #1) and heat to boiling.
No Protein or Sac rest for decoction?, or for main mash?
Add all the 11.32 quarts of boiling decoction #1 back to main mash to raise temp of main mash to 150F.
Let sit for 60 min?
Remove 7.1 quarts from main mash and heat to boiling (decoction #2). Return to main mash after a short boil.
The temp of the main mash should now be about 170 degrees for mash out.

I have almost the same set up as you do, (15 gallon boil pot with 10 gallon cooler) but I fly sparge. So any technique advice you could give would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks, I can't wait to give this beer a shot.
Looks wonderful.


The Enhanced Double decoction is best understood by looking at the diagram in this link: Decoction mash - Home Brewing Wiki

You're correct that you dough in to achieve 97 degrees. But after about 20 minutes, you want to pull your first decoction and let it start warming up. Be sure to let it rest for 15-20 minutes at 133 and 160 degrees as it is heated up. Once it is boiling, let it boil for 10-20 minutes, then add enough back to the MLT to get the temp up to 133 degrees (protein rest). Continue boiling the rest of the decoction for another ~15 minutes, then add it to the MLT. That should get you to the sacc rest temp. It is all easily understood by looking at that link. I would recommend pulling about 10-20% more for each decoction than what's listed. Then only add enough back to the MLT to hit the right temp. Let the rest cool down to that temp, then add it with the rest. There's nothing worse than dumping the whole decoction back into the MLT and having it not raise the temp enough. You can also add some water to the decoction in order to bring the volume up slightly, to offset whatever boiloff you might have during the decoction. Hope this helped clear it up a bit.
 
I looked at brew wiki and understood it, it was the timing in the O.P. (60 min, 60 min, 15 min) that threw me for a loop. The volume of the mash that you had listed, is that about how much a you used to raise the temp to the next step? So use 10-20% more?
Thanks
 
I looked at brew wiki and understood it, it was the timing in the O.P. (60 min, 60 min, 15 min) that threw me for a loop. The volume of the mash that you had listed, is that about how much a you used to raise the temp to the next step? So use 10-20% more?
Thanks

OK, I see now. Yeah, the times in the OP are a little misleading since they kind of represent the time to the next step, but not all of the little things going on between steps. It's a function of the limited ability to schedule the steps in Beersmith. The volumes listed in the OP should get you close, but add 10-20% plus a little water to be sure. I always end up a little low if I go straight by the numbers Beersmith spits out.

EDIT: I attempted to edit the OP mash schedule in order to better describe the process.
 
Thanks for your very quick replies. I figured it was the beersmith that was confusing me. I just wanted to clear everything up. I looked at the O.P. and it much easier to understand and follow. I will post back next week to let everyone know how brew day went.
 
Brewed this on Saturday, man, it seemed as if the day took forever! Much longer process. Everything went well except for when I used the second part of the first decoction to raise the main mash to the protein rest. I added all I had and was still over 10 degrees off. I will remember that for next time. other wise an easy brew day.

Oh, one other thing,
I did have a few changes in the recipe, one by accident and one on purpose.
I used Wyeast 2633 Oktoberfest blend. I figured I would give it a shot. Then I used .9 oz of regular hallerteau and then .9 oz of hersbrucker. Both should have very minimal influence on the final beer.
 
Did you pull another decoction to get up to mash temp or just leave it? Did you pull an extra 20% for the decoction? 10 degrees seems like a lot. The hop sub won't make any difference at all and that yeast should be really nice.
 
I did not decoct additional mash, I just boiled about a gallon and a half of water and added the water to the main mash. It then reached 151 degrees. I did bump up my decoctions about 10%, I will have to bump 20% next time.

Yeah, we were scratching our heads, because the mash was at 132 when we added the boiling decoction, it had to be about 2 gallons worth.

I did hit my all time high efficiency, 92% to get 1.062 og.
 
I want to try and get this in soon so it can be ready in a few months. So how from mash in to filling the boil kettle?

Going by your link of the Enhanced Double Decoction, it is about 3 1/2 hours for the mash. Is that right?

From your descriptions, it sounds like you start the mash @ 97, 20 minutes in pull a specified amount and warm it up to the point that if you add some back and keep going with the rest to boil, it will raise the mash to 133. After boiling the first decoction more, add it back to raise the Mash again to raise up to the 150s hold and then mash out. Does this sound close.
 
I want to try and get this in soon so it can be ready in a few months. So how from mash in to filling the boil kettle?

Going by your link of the Enhanced Double Decoction, it is about 3 1/2 hours for the mash. Is that right?

From your descriptions, it sounds like you start the mash @ 97, 20 minutes in pull a specified amount and warm it up to the point that if you add some back and keep going with the rest to boil, it will raise the mash to 133. After boiling the first decoction more, add it back to raise the Mash again to raise up to the 150s hold and then mash out. Does this sound close.

To be honest, decoction mash days are loooong. 3.5 hrs to mashout is probably pretty close. Here's a breakdown of how long it usually takes me per step:

mash in and wait 25 min
pull decoction (5 min)
bring decoction up to 133 (10 min)
rest decoction at 133 for 15 min
bring decoction up to 158 (10 min)
rest decoction at 158 (20 min)
bring decoction up to a boil (20 min)
boil decoction 10 min
add some decoction back to main mash to get to 133 (5 min)
continue to boil decoction for 20 minutes
add rest of decoction (or enough to bring main mash to sacc rest temp) (5 min)
sacc rest (60 min pullin decoction for mashout in last 20 or so minutes)
add mashout decoction back to main mash then continue as normal.

Good luck with it and keep telling yourself the beer will be worth it!:D
 
To be honest, decoction mash days are loooong. 3.5 hrs to mashout is probably pretty close. Here's a breakdown of how long it usually takes me per step:

mash in and wait 25 min
pull decoction (5 min)
bring decoction up to 133 (10 min)
rest decoction at 133 for 15 min
bring decoction up to 158 (10 min)
rest decoction at 158 (20 min)
bring decoction up to a boil (20 min)
boil decoction 10 min
add some decoction back to main mash to get to 133 (5 min)
continue to boil decoction for 20 minutes
add rest of decoction (or enough to bring main mash to sacc rest temp) (5 min)
sacc rest (60 min pullin decoction for mashout in last 20 or so minutes)
add mashout decoction back to main mash then continue as normal.

Good luck with it and keep telling yourself the beer will be worth it!:D

So, I'll just get up before dawn and get things started. Actually I did a decoction with my first lager, only a acid rest and then sacc though but still took a long time.
 
Can you please help me understand this whole process? I just brewed an Oktoberfest and subsequently a Nut Brown with a schedule like this:
:25-:30 Dough in at ~40 iC
Step rest schedule at 50, 60, then 70 iC for :30
Fly sparge and boil, etc etc etc.


What I don't get is the difference between decoctions, rest times, and why you would effectively mash the decoction, then add that hot wort to the main mash later and do it all over again?

The nut brown, I had it in the boil kettle and just maintained the temps for the rest period, then kicked up the heat while stirring to reach the next increment. Should I expect something different/wrong/off about my final product?

Oddity to note was in the sparge. Even after 15 quarts of fly sparging, the runoff was still faintly to decently sweet. No numbers to help with, sorry.

So in the ways my process differs from yours, what major ramifications am I looking at? I guess I'm just still in the dark on the decoction process. I watched Kai's videos and have done oodles of reading, but I think it's just over my head...

Thanks!
 
By boiling the mash in a decoction, you create melanoidins and other flavor compounds that wouldn't necessarily form in a normal step mash. You rest the decoction at the mash steps before boiling because once you boil it, the enzymes in it are denatured. Therefore, by resting the mash at the appropriate temps, you make the best use of the enzymes available. Otherwise, it would be up to whatever amount of enzymes remained in the original mash to convert the starches still there AND all the starches that are in the decoction. Does that make it more clear?
 
It does clear up the purpose of step mashing for me, but what I don't understand is: is the decoction necessary, or if I just bring the whole mash up to the correct temp with the burner and while stirring vigorously, then will that be any different?

The Oktoberfest was heated with no decoction, just boiling water additions. The Nut Brown was heated as a whole in the kettle.

Thanks for the help!

~Wm
 
It does clear up the purpose of step mashing for me, but what I don't understand is: is the decoction necessary, or if I just bring the whole mash up to the correct temp with the burner and while stirring vigorously, then will that be any different?

The Oktoberfest was heated with no decoction, just boiling water additions. The Nut Brown was heated as a whole in the kettle.

Thanks for the help!

~Wm

I guess you could do it that way but it may hurt efficiency unless you leave it at the saccharification temps for the full mash times and then bring the whole mash to a boil to develop the decoction flavors. That wouldn't allow the thick or thin decoctions as recommended for the different steps since youll be at the thickness of the mash the whole time. But it might work.
 
gerrywalsh, I don't know if you're following this thread but I can't respond to your pm about the recipe because your inbox is full.

Here's what I tried to pm:

gerrywalsh said:
Hi Brian,

I've been working away trying to get all my equipment together for making this Oktoberfest. The mashtun and the fermentation chamber is sorted so i suppose the a temperature controlled keggle would be the last piece of the puzzle. (If you think I need any other items let me know)

I just have a question or two with regard to the decoction process. Am i right in saying that when you deococt, you include the grain as opposed to filtering through a strainer. I'm sorry but I've come across conflicting advice on this site and said I'd ask somebody who has actually done one.

Also is there any PH requirements for the mash.

You definitely want grain in the decoction. I know it seems in complete opposition to everything we know, but the grain does need to get boiled. For the first two decoctions you'll want to pull a pretty thick aliquot to be decocted (meaning that there is a high proportion of grain to liquid. For the mash out you can pull a thinner aliquot. Be sure to decoct more than you think you will need for each step. I've found that you'll often need more than calculated to get the temp to rise as much as you want.

As far as pH, I would suggest just trying to keep it between 5.2-5.4.
 
yup sorry Brian my limited messages folder rejected ur first pm. Anyhow that's great to get some clarity on that one. The material i read said pull from the thickest part of the mash, wasn't sure what that meant.

So I've decided when making my keggle since I don't have a false bottom to insert into it I'm gonna wrap the elements in a few layers of aluminium mesh. do you think this would be enough to avoid scorch. I have a PID temp controller for the keggle so surely the elements wont get that hot as i'm bringing up the temp
 
I would imagine that you didn't need to worry about scorching on the element, but I've never done any electric brewing, I'm on a propane burner. There are lots of people here who do have electric systems though, and you could probably get your questioned answered by someone more knowledgeable on the subject than me in the equipment subforum.
 
Very close to where i need to be in terms of hardware at this stage Brian. Just wondering could you point me toward some reading material for doing all grain home brewing. Every time I read over the thread I realise there is more and more i don't understand. I cant make sense of how all the volumes relate to one another in terms of boil size, batch size, sparge volume etc. (Completely bewildered as to how the hops are added)

I just don't want to make a stones of it when it comes to brew day.
 
Haha, I'm sure you won't make a stones of it. If you haven't already, take a look at John Palmer's How To Brew. He has made the 1st addition available for viewing on the internet for free. Here's a link to the all grain section.

http://www.howtobrew.com/section3/index.html

That explains everything pretty well, but if you have more questions just ask.
 
Great stuff, think i pretty much have my head around the process. Just wondering how are the hops added and do you aerate your wort like i saw on palmers site. These are the hops i got. They are they the hersbrucker ones, presume they are ok?

screen10.jpg
 
For the hops, you want to do this. Bring your wort to a boil. Set a timer for 90 minutes. When 30 minutes have gone by and the timer has 60 minutes left, throw the hops in. Some people use little bags to contain the hops but I just let them float free. I'm not sure what is best for electric kettles. Anyway, the hops boil away in there for the 60 remaining minutes. After the 60 minutes are up, turn off the heat and chill the wort. You can then strain the hops out.

You definitely need to aerate the wort. The oxygen you introduce is vital for the yeasts' reproduction. By boiling the wort, you forced all of the oxygen out. You need to get as much as you can back in there so the yeast are happy. You can do that by pouring the wort violently into your fermentation vessel, then closing up the vessel and shaking it vigorously for a couple of minutes. I've heard varying opinions on how long it takes to get the wort saturated with oxygen but you can't really shake it too much. You want at least a couple of minutes of really good shaking. Once it is aerated and at pitching temperature you can go ahead and add the yeast. Seal it up and wait for the magic to happen.
 
Oh, forgot to mention. It looks like your hops are 3% alpha acid, is that right? In that case, you are going to need to use slightly more hops than what the recipe calls for (since the recipe was based on 4% alpha acid hops). If they are 3% like it looks, you'll want to use 2.4 oz (68 g) of the hops to get the same bittering.
 
Yup 3% is what it says on the pack so 64 g it is then.

Can i just run the process by you as i am literally only a temperature probe away from brew day.

1. Heat up the strike water and dough in the grain.
2. Follow the whole decoction schedule you have detailed.
3. Vorlauf and first runnings.
4. Batch sparge in 2 steps (10qts per step) and drain the wort to the brew kettle.
5. Boil the wort for 90 min adding the hops after 30 min.
6. Drain the wort to the fermentation vessel through hop strainer.
7. Shake the s**t out of it.
8. Cool to yeast pitching temperature.
9. Make starter and pitch.
 
Looks like you've got the process right there. The only thing I would recommend is to cool before shaking it. The cooler the wort, the more oxygen it will take. Other than that, it looks like you are all set to go.
 
Just received my temperature probe this morning so it's getting very close to brew day.:ban:

I just have one concern after reading the material on palmers site. It says that above 170°F the 'husk tannins' become more soluble. Based on the mash schedule in the wiki for double enhanced decoction the grains are brought all the way up to boiling. Is this correct or have i misunderstood the process.

Apologies for the continued harassment.
 
You do indeed bring the decoction up to boiling. It was a sticking point for me as well when I was first learning about the process but it works. Next time I'm in Ireland I'll stop by for a pint! :D
 
Well thats my first all-grainer done and by the Christ is it an involved process. Going for a double enhanced decoction first time out may have been a little bit too in at the deep end but i enjoyed it none the less.

The best part for me was building all the brewing equipment, the fermentation chamber is something I'm especially impressed with. I tried to control the temperature steps in the decoction using a PID controller in conjunction with some temperature probes. For anybody who is intending on doing Decoction mashes this is completely unnecessary, just wait till your 1°C or 2°F below the target temp and pull the plug. If you lose a degree or two just fore it up again during the rest. Didn't matter anyhow cos i blew my PID controller heating up the strike water:mad:

Just 3 months fermentation to go now:rolleyes:
 
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