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Old 12-25-2010, 06:22 AM   #91
Namako
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OK, I just finished the re-design of the wiring schematic. In light of Sawdustguy's concerns regarding the power to the pump precluding use of the gas valve, I decided to change up the switching a bit, using a DPST switch for the pump, and wiring it into the PID relay. Here's the link to the JPG...



Now, the PID and the transformer are constantly energized when the main power is on, and the pump and gas valve can be turned on with the flip of a switch.

As a result, this should allow me to use the pump anytime I want, and I can manually operate the gas valve whenever the "Manual/Auto" switch is in the "Manual" position. When the switch is in the "Auto" position, however, the pump will need to be turned on, and as long as the ball valves are open, it will be pumping ambient temperature wort past the RTD that is used by the PID to drive the gas valve.

Again, this is just a safety measure to ensure that the HLT isn't being heated up to boiling because the liquid that is in contact with the RTD has cooled and the PID erroneously thinks that it needs to be heated back up to the set point, when in fact, the HLT is already at the proper temp.

Any thoughts, suggestions, warnings, criticisms, even laughter, is appreciated... usually.

Namako


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Old 12-25-2010, 01:24 PM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Namako View Post
Without a constant flow passing over the RTD, the wort that would be sitting there when the pump was turned off would be cooling. It will quickly be cool enough to be telling the PID to apply heat, thereby turning on the gas valve. As a result, without a flow, the temps in the HLT will be rising, eventually to a boil. I didn't want that to happen.
Your diagram looks fine but you are still running the pump while heating the water in your HLT. This I do not understand. Does the pump really need to be on while heating strike or sparge water? Your PID temperature sensor should be in the HLT where you can actually read the temperature of what you are heating. Maybe I am not seeing what you are trying to accomplish. Maybe an over all diagram of your brewery would help explain things.


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Old 12-25-2010, 11:58 PM   #93
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Ah, you want LOGIC??? Sorry, it's the day after X'Mas, and all through the house is... CHAOS!!

The RTD (temperature probe) that drives the HLT PID is in-line as the water comes up from the pump and into the distribution manifold, not sitting in the HLT - I only monitor the temp in the HLT out of curiosity and boredom. I'm measuring the temperature of the HLT water after the pump has recirculated it through most of the piping. Once I've reached my desired strike/sparge temperature at near the outlet, I flip the ball valve and instead of returning the water to the HLT, I deliver the water - at the right temp - to the mash tun, whether I'm just striking in or I'm now sparging.

I plan on using the same logic as I recirculate wort during the mash, with the RTD that drives the Mash Tun PID also being in-line, just as it exits the heat exchanger and returns to the mash (the outlet). In my case, I don't have a direct-fired MT, so I have my wort being pumped through an immersion chiller sitting in the boil kettle (yes, I use BOTH during the strike/mash), with the MT PID driving the gas valve under that burner.

Once I'm nearly done with the mash (about 10 minutes prior to sparging, after full conversion), I stop the mash recirculation, remove the heat exchanger from the boil kettle, and then pump the water in the boil kettle over to the HLT - that takes about 5 minutes - and the HLT PID takes over, getting the water ready for the sparge.

I will eventually put a burner under the mash tun and use the MT PID to drive that burner (Brew Sculpture 2.0), again measuring the wort temp just prior to it returning to the mash. Because of the amount of SS piping I have in my brew stand (see link below for picture), my system has an inherent heat loss that I need to account for, hence the use of in-line measurement. If I just measure the temp in the HLT, for example, by the time the water makes it through the system, it has already cooled.

Here's my brew sculpture:
http://i366.photobucket.com/albums/o...3/DSCN5161.jpg
and
http://i366.photobucket.com/albums/o...3/DSCN5169.jpg

I don't really care what temperature the water is in the HLT, just as long as it is the right temperature when it reaches the end of the line and re-enters the HLT or enters the mash tun. The PID will know (or rather, will "learn") what temperature that needs to be, and make it so.

That keeps me from having to worry about the thermal mass of my system, both the inherent properties based on the equipment itself, AND the variations caused by the seasonality of my brewing. I brew in air temperatures ranging from at or below freezing to near 100 degrees F, and that changes the thermal properties as well. By measuring my temps at the outlet, rather than the source, I really don't need to care what happens "behind the curtain."

Back to the chaos...
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Indecision... may or may not be my problem... I'm not sure

Primary 1 - Empty
Primary 2 - Empty
Kegged: Empty
Planned: Maerzen, Maibock, and a Kellerbier/Zwickle
Coming Soon: An upgraded Blichmann 20-gallon, Kal-inspired, BCS-controlled, all-electric RIMS-based pico-brewery (by mid-Summer 2015, after the winter thaw, and the NHC, I swear!!)

Reason: Poor photo link in the first post
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Old 12-26-2010, 03:15 AM   #94
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As requested, here's a schematic of my brew system...



Depending on which valve is open, I can move water and wort from any kettle to any other kettle. I can also set the valves and allow PBW to cycle through the system virtually forever (HLT --> MT --> BK --> HLT)

If anyone has any questions, I'm happy to defend/change.
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Indecision... may or may not be my problem... I'm not sure

Primary 1 - Empty
Primary 2 - Empty
Kegged: Empty
Planned: Maerzen, Maibock, and a Kellerbier/Zwickle
Coming Soon: An upgraded Blichmann 20-gallon, Kal-inspired, BCS-controlled, all-electric RIMS-based pico-brewery (by mid-Summer 2015, after the winter thaw, and the NHC, I swear!!)

Reason: Better to show than direct...
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Old 12-26-2010, 01:29 PM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Namako View Post
Ah, you want LOGIC??? Sorry, it's the day after X'Mas, and all through the house is... CHAOS!!

The RTD (temperature probe) that drives the HLT PID is in-line as the water comes up from the pump and into the distribution manifold, not sitting in the HLT - I only monitor the temp in the HLT out of curiosity and boredom. I'm measuring the temperature of the HLT water after the pump has recirculated it through most of the piping. Once I've reached my desired strike/sparge temperature at near the outlet, I flip the ball valve and instead of returning the water to the HLT, I deliver the water - at the right temp - to the mash tun, whether I'm just striking in or I'm now sparging.

I plan on using the same logic as I recirculate wort during the mash, with the RTD that drives the Mash Tun PID also being in-line, just as it exits the heat exchanger and returns to the mash (the outlet). In my case, I don't have a direct-fired MT, so I have my wort being pumped through an immersion chiller sitting in the boil kettle (yes, I use BOTH during the strike/mash), with the MT PID driving the gas valve under that burner.

Once I'm nearly done with the mash (about 10 minutes prior to sparging, after full conversion), I stop the mash recirculation, remove the heat exchanger from the boil kettle, and then pump the water in the boil kettle over to the HLT - that takes about 5 minutes - and the HLT PID takes over, getting the water ready for the sparge.

I will eventually put a burner under the mash tun and use the MT PID to drive that burner (Brew Sculpture 2.0), again measuring the wort temp just prior to it returning to the mash. Because of the amount of SS piping I have in my brew stand (see link below for picture), my system has an inherent heat loss that I need to account for, hence the use of in-line measurement. If I just measure the temp in the HLT, for example, by the time the water makes it through the system, it has already cooled.

Here's my brew sculpture:
http://i366.photobucket.com/albums/o...3/DSCN5161.jpg
and
http://i366.photobucket.com/albums/o...3/DSCN5169.jpg

I don't really care what temperature the water is in the HLT, just as long as it is the right temperature when it reaches the end of the line and re-enters the HLT or enters the mash tun. The PID will know (or rather, will "learn") what temperature that needs to be, and make it so.

That keeps me from having to worry about the thermal mass of my system, both the inherent properties based on the equipment itself, AND the variations caused by the seasonality of my brewing. I brew in air temperatures ranging from at or below freezing to near 100 degrees F, and that changes the thermal properties as well. By measuring my temps at the outlet, rather than the source, I really don't need to care what happens "behind the curtain."

Back to the chaos...
I think, because of the way a PID works you are going to have a difficult time regulating the temperature of the HLT water the way you propose to do it. Maybe someone like CodeRage who has a much better knowlege of PID's will chime in on this.
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Old 12-27-2010, 12:53 AM   #96
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Quote:
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I think, because of the way a PID works you are going to have a difficult time regulating the temperature of the HLT water the way you propose to do it. Maybe someone like CodeRage who has a much better knowlege of PID's will chime in on this.
My understanding... and I've been proven wrong even in THIS very thread - is that one of the advantages of using a PID (vice a simple on-off controller) is that it is able to "learn" to compensate for the lag in both the response time and the rate of increase that occurs between the initial call for heat (based on the PID set-point) and the final realization of achieving the set-point temp.

If I place the RTD way back in the HLT, then all I'm doing is keeping the HLT at a set temperature, and that's really not the point. I want to deliver water to the mash at a specific temperature, AFTER it has had the chance to flow through - and cools down in - my system, regardless of whatever the HLT temperature needs to be in order to deliver that temperature at the outlet.

Maybe I'm giving the PID more credit than it deserves... I'd like to hear from others who have tried moving the RTD around in their system.
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Indecision... may or may not be my problem... I'm not sure

Primary 1 - Empty
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Planned: Maerzen, Maibock, and a Kellerbier/Zwickle
Coming Soon: An upgraded Blichmann 20-gallon, Kal-inspired, BCS-controlled, all-electric RIMS-based pico-brewery (by mid-Summer 2015, after the winter thaw, and the NHC, I swear!!)
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Old 12-30-2010, 11:03 PM   #97
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This thread has been extremely informative and enlightening...

That said, how easy would it be to make the application to other common valve/contoller/pilot combinations?

A friend of mine is in the HVAC business and throws away two furnaces a week. He hung on to one for me and im wondering if its worth figuring out the nuances of controlling it when there is a such a straight forward thread like this for different components.

Its hard to turn down a whole working furnace...seems like there would be all sorts of goodies to salvage (valve, pilot, TX, spark igniter, relays, switches, CB)

Coincidentally:
-White Rodgers 36E series valve
-3 wire pilot
-120/24 VAC TX
-working PCB

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Old 01-14-2011, 10:24 PM   #98
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Sawdustguy I know this is an old post but I wanted to see if you had a wiring diagram of your old control panel maybe some inside pics of it. I would love to make this control box. I have to say thanks also as your articles have been KEY!!! In my single tier build. Are you using an asco value as an emergency shutoff for your HLT gas?

THANK YOU!!!

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Old 04-08-2011, 07:28 PM   #99
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Hey all! This thread is old, but it seems like a good place to post this.

I found a supplier in China for SS 1/2 NPT electric (12VDC) ball valves. Only $24 each plus shipping and wire transfer fee (which is a bit much). If anybody else is interested, we could save some $$ on shipping and wire fee. Drop me a line. I plan on making the purchase on Monday.
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Old 04-08-2011, 10:33 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by skroged View Post
Hey all! This thread is old, but it seems like a good place to post this.

I found a supplier in China for SS 1/2 NPT electric (12VDC) ball valves. Only $24 each plus shipping and wire transfer fee (which is a bit much). If anybody else is interested, we could save some $$ on shipping and wire fee. Drop me a line. I plan on making the purchase on Monday.
These valves are not a great choice for propane. You really want a standing pilot furnace valve with safety shutoff especially if you anticipate brewing outdoors. You see, propane is heavier than air and does not dissipate in the air like natural gas. Propane also has a 270 to 1 expansion rate from liquid to gas. That means 1 gallon of liquid propane in a tank becomes 270 gallons of propane in gas form when removed from the pressure of the tank. The flame does not have to out for very long before a lot of gas has been released making for a very dangerous situation.


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