White Labs 001 very slow

I am brewing a batch of BierMuncher's Cream of Three Crops. Right now its in the primary with White Labs 001. This is the first time that I've used this yeast and I've noticed that it seems to be working at half speed. Is this normal?

Ok here are the details:

I didn't have time to make a starter- I know, I know... I just pitched the tube into cooled aerated wort. Still I had bubbles in my air lock 18 hours later. Fermentation temp is in the high 60's (about 68-70) and is consistent.

My original gravity was 1.046, after 4 days it was 1.03soething and didn't taste like much. Usually my beer is just about done in around 4-5 days. It's still bubbling -slowly and obviously need more time.

So what I'm really wondering, is this slow fermentation due to my low pitching rate, the yeast strain, or maybe something else?


BTW I normally do make a starter when using white labs yeast.

That is the same strain as 1056 and us-05. I use them all the time and have vigorous fermentations. They could have been old. I had the same thing happen when using white labs hefe yeast. I learned my lesson and make a starter everytime now, or use dry yeast. US-05 is great!

I have used US-05 and had great luck with it. How do you know WTL-001 is the exact same thing as US-05? They defiantly sound alike by their descriptions. If you right I'll not be buying $7 liquid -05 again!

pouring some dry yeast in now would likely be a bad idea right...

I gave it a nice swirlly today maybe that will help get it going.

What was your mash temp?

HangLoose said:

How do you know WTL-001 is the exact same thing as US-05?
pouring some dry yeast in now would likely be a bad idea right...

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The WMP001, WY1056, & Safale Us-05 are all strains of the proverbial "Chico" strain. All very similar.

Can you confirm your OG and +1 to your mash temp?

I am fairly certain of my OG: 1.046
My mash temp was 152 or 153 after 90 min it was down to the high 140's maybe 148 or so, I wasn't too careful about that measurement. Sparged w 175 water.

It has sped up (the bubbling) now that I swirled it a little.

Be aware that post-stir you may just be seeing CO2 releasing.

No its sill going. SLOWLY. Maybe faster then before, since I stirred it.

You underpitched. I've had 001 go through a beer in like 4 days at 65 degrees. Like any yeast, you need to give it the care it deserves.

That said, for any neutral beer style where I don't make a starter, I will always use S-05. That and 001 are more or less the same strain. Sure, there might be minor mutations, but both put out an extremely clean product. S-05 just has a higher initial cell count.

Yeah I'm totally aware I under pitched. What I wounder is why anyone would pony up the extra dough for 001 when they could have the same thing (only better) for less. Weird.

Frankly, if making a starter is that critical with the White Labs products, then I really wish that they would just direct ship slants. I mean, are the vials ready to pitch or aren't they?

It's now been 6 days in the primary and 36 hours since the last gravity reading of 1.030 the latest reading is 1.021 or so. I tasted it and it at least is starting to taste like beer - though its still really sweat of course. I gave it another light swirl, hopefully if I give it enough time I'll get some reasonable attenuation.

Aspera said:

Frankly, if making a starter is that critical with the White Labs products, then I really wish that they would just direct ship slants. I mean, are the vials ready to pitch or aren't they?

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No. If you use the industry standard pitching rate and pitch in the mid-low 60s like many of us try to do, they are woefully deficient to direct pitch anything above 1.040.

White Labs and Wyeast 'get around' this by suggesting you direct pitch at 70 then lowering to your target fermentation temperature. Not ideal by any means.

I have 3lbs of DME. What if I made a huge starter/mini beer then pitched my stuck brew on top?

or...

What if I added my lager starter to it and lagered it??? Ok that might be the dumbest thing I ever thought of or would it? Could it work? It has already gone to like 1.02something but this should be fairly attenuative.

I have learned the hard way (same as the OP) that these vials are NOT ready to pitch. I've had much better luck with Wyeast smack packs. If I use white labs, I always make a starter.

By my calculations - performing actual cell counts, mind - on average neither White Labs tubes nor Wyeast XL smack-packs contain enough active yeast to properly inoculate five US gallons of wort over OG 1.028. This confirms JZ's observations.

This is one reason I brew half-batches. First is my equipement. Second, if I brew 2.5 to 3 US gallons, I cna be confident a White Labs vial or Wyeast pack will have sufficient yeast. Third, I get to go through the process of brewing - which I enjoy almost as much as drinking the finished beer - twice as often. Fourth, I don't have to futz around with a starter.

Flaws? None.

Cheers,

Bob

Yes, but with the Wyeast packs, typically you are pitching an actively reproducing yeast (If you activate it 6 hours ahead of time). This is an important difference. Just the same, I'm going to see if Brulabs with ship slants to the U.S.

NQ3X said:

By my calculations - performing actual cell counts, mind - on average neither White Labs tubes nor Wyeast XL smack-packs contain enough active yeast to properly inoculate five US gallons of wort over OG 1.028. This confirms JZ's observations.

This is one reason I brew half-batches. First is my equipement. Second, if I brew 2.5 to 3 US gallons, I cna be confident a White Labs vial or Wyeast pack will have sufficient yeast. Third, I get to go through the process of brewing - which I enjoy almost as much as drinking the finished beer - twice as often. Fourth, I don't have to futz around with a starter.

Flaws? None.

Cheers,

Bob

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I always direct pitch my Wyeast smack packs, I always pitch a bit warm and let it cool because my chiller cant get the wort down to 60 very fast. Never really had a problem besides my last stout that was a bit on the high end of gravity, it had a slow start. Im brewing the cream of three crops today, wish me luck

Never had any difficulties with 001. Got a starter of it on the stirplate from a previous washing. 12 hours into the starter it was so active I had some krausen come out the top of the flask.

If you have a "stuck" fermentation, it's not really the fault of the yeast, but more the process somehow. Don't think I'm pointing fingers by any means... I'm just sticking up for my favorite, clean yeast. Stuck fermentations can usually be "unstuck" by making a small starter of the same yeast and throwing it in during high krausen. This should help restart the process of fermentation to get you down to your desired FG.

Its really not stuck just very slow. It's down to like 1.012 or so. Still I have a big 2L starter that I made from wort I saved from this very batch and some US-05. I'm going to pitch it tonight. What was your grain bill (on the cream of 3)? My is very corny with 2lbs of flaked corn. I was told it would be but I didn't listen. I hope its OK cause I'm not too sure about this whole batch...

Aspera said:

Yes, but with the Wyeast packs, typically you are pitching an actively reproducing yeast (If you activate it 6 hours ahead of time). This is an important difference.

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Respectfully, the metabolic phase in which the yeast finds itself at pitching is completely irrelevant. The important thing is the number of living cells being pitched.

Okay, piching actively-fermenting cells is better than pitching dormant cells, but pitching actively-fermenting cells is still underpitching, and underpitching always has the same effect.

Bob

A vial of dormant cells sitting in DI water for 2-5 months is not the same viability as something that has been actively dividing in a sterile environment for the last six hours. It is true that temperature shock should be minimized, and that you are underpitching with both Wyeast and White Labs, but 1-2 generations of division (40-80 minutes at room temperature) should make both of these products work. As stated previously, I would rather that they just shipped slants.

So I made a 2L starter with some US-05 and let it go for 24 hours (I aerated it often). Then I crash cooled it, decanted the beer (except just enough to liquify the yeast cake) and pitched it into the beer. I gave it a few careful stirs with a sanitized spoon and replaced the lid. I had some fairly good action in the airlock within 2 hours. It stopped by morning at 1.08 which was what I was looking for...

yay good times

Aspera said:

A vial of dormant cells sitting in DI water for 2-5 months is not the same viability as something that has been actively dividing in a sterile environment for the last six hours. It is true that temperature shock should be minimized, and that you are underpitching with both Wyeast and White Labs, but 1-2 generations of division (40-80 minutes at room temperature) should make both of these products work.

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But it doesn't, as practical experience and actual laboratory analysis has shown. Leaving the White Labs 'slants' aside, even an extremely active Wyeast XL smack-pack has but ~100 billion cells. Yeast activity level at pitching really has nothing to do with the quality of the ferment - the number of cells pitched does.

According to my experience and the experience of other professional and amateur brewers, what you say should make it work does not work. It never has worked. You'll get a slightly faster start than if you pitched sleepy cells, but that's it. It's just that simple.

Respectfully,

Bob