5 litre keg

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Terry08

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Some of you will have read about my trial of using a 4 litre wine bladder to prime a brew in. As I said it worked but too much trouble. Plus the concern over the simple valve and possibility of bursting.
Any way I have now obtained a 5 litre plasic water container which is very solid.

My proposal which I shall do tommorrow is to treat it like a bottle and prime it and fill and leave for 3 weeks. Based on my wine bladder trial I know it will gain sufficient carbonisation.

Now after 3 weeks minimum I will put it in the fridge for two days to condition.

Now I realise that as beer is served the pressure will drop and gradually the Co2 will leech out of solution. But at a party 5 Litres (<7 x 750ml Bottles) will not last long.
This works as the wine bladder proved. Now the next step for me is to fit a Schroder valve (Bicycle) and virtually add the required pressure.

Now I have taken on board comments about oxidisation but I believe carbon Dioxide and Oxygen do not mix and any Co2 will blanket the beer and prevent the pumped in air coming in contact. Air which is actually nearly all nitrogen sitting on top. For bacteria the gas present should be quite lethal.

So for the storage and conditioning period the beer is preserved as it would be in a bottle.

So we will see. I will make one consession once opened the life of the 5 litre plastic keg will be limited but just think of the benifits.

You take a plastic keg to a party in an esky and after dispensing say 3 litres you increase the pressure with a mini bike pump. For the sole purpose of helping delivery.

I have the beer ready to bottle tomorrow and will prime and fill the sanitised container.

As an aside this water container I am about to use is one of two we use when we caravan around so the second stage will be when I can get a spare cap. I do intend to support the sides with cable ties to prevent some of the side distortion.

As I said the Wine bladder idea was succsessfull and the beer was Delivered through the valve rather primatively but with a good head and lively beads.

I will comment on the result some 3 weeks from now, Hmmm! just in time for Christmas Me Mad never
 
I've been sitting here for fifteen minutes trying to concoct a tactful way to put this, but I'm damned if I can find one. I'm just gonna say it. I don't want to be a jerk; I want to help. Please bear that in mind.

Now I have taken on board comments about oxidisation but I believe carbon Dioxide and Oxygen do not mix and any Co2 will blanket the beer and prevent the pumped in air coming in contact. Air which is actually nearly all nitrogen sitting on top. For bacteria the gas present should be quite lethal.

You may believe whatever you like. Belief in a concept doesn't make it true. I'm afraid you're just plain wrong, laddie. Your beliefs are simply out of tune with incontrovertible scientific fact.

As the beer is consumed, you are correct that carbon dioxide gas will devolve into the headspace of the container. However, you are utterly incorrect in presuming that pumping air into the container to maintain positive head pressure won't displace the 'blanket' of carbon dioxide gas. The unfiltered air will come into contact with the beer, bringing in all manner of airborne contaminants. This is so widely known and widely experienced, my mind boggles that you'd even make the attempt to deny it.

In the course of an afternoon or evening party, this air uptake will make no difference, as the time scale is too short for the contaminants to spoil the beer. However, if you carry the leftover beer home and draw off a pint in a week, you'll notice the negative impact on the flavor.

I'm very interested in your simple draught-beer container and congratulate you on your ingenuity. I have and use the steel 5L mini-kegs for that purpose, but a plastic vessel has a great deal of appeal. Please forgive me for coming off so harsh. I fear n00bs reading your post and using it as justification for faulty techniques that will bite them in the arse, possibly putting them off brewing forever.

Respectfully,

Bob
 
I am curious as to why you are choosing to reinvent this particular wheel. It has already been done, and much better, with an actual CO2 dispenser so that the beer you draw will come out freshly charged with CO2.

There are in fact several different variations on this. As Bob mentioned you have the steel mini keg system. I use this one also and am happy with it. It uses 16g CO2 cartridges that charge an entire keg.

Then there is the Tap a Draft that uses 1 gallon plastic bottles. It is also sold with a CO2 tap that uses 12g cartridges.

Then there is the Party Pig dispenser that is akin to your beer bladder only it works well. It is a bladder inside a rigid outer shell. The beer inside is naturally carbed and then dispensed using an incorporated air charger that inflates between the bladder and the shell.

All three of these options eliminate any contact with outside air. They also provide methods to maintain CO2 carbing.

Sorry, but you are just revisiting an already thoroughly traveled path.
 
BobNQ3X
Gee 15 minutes? I expect detrimental comments much sooner. I am very thick skinned and do not get affended.

In the course of an afternoon or evening party, this air uptake will make no difference, as the time scale is too short for the contaminants to spoil the beer.
This was the basic idea where the total amount would be consumed.

My thinking on this:- Air is approx 78% Nitrogen, 20% Oxygen, 0.9% Argon, 0.03% Co2 plus a heap of other elements. Anyway as Air can only accept 0.03 % and would be totally saturated any more Co2 would be free as I see it. and as it is heavier than air would sit below the air introduced. Now my chemistry knowledge is not great so I stand corrected. I know that Co2 is soluble in water and readily absorbed, not so air to a greater degree. Again I stand to be corrected.

My test will show the result over time. Also as the beer will be stored at say 2deg bacterial attack will be slow.

dontman

Kegs are readily available in Oz but I have not come across a mini keg, Party pig etc. Even those small Co2 bulbs have been taken off Supermarket shelves as they are potentially terrorist weopons. Yes I could get a large Co2 tank but the hire charge is high.

The plastic 5 litre container is very tough has a tap, is easy to clean and fill. Plus they are less than $10aud. each.

Anyway the total cost of the experiment will be $2aud ie 5 litres's of beer.

As a final comment, when I started brewing I used a plasic garbage bin(I did remove the garbage first :) ) anyway the top just had a towel over it. and after to bottle a soup ladle was used to spoon the beer into the bottles. Remember hammering on the seals.

I have never had a beer go bad and at last count I have made a tad over 520brews.

So other than ensureing that my equipment is treated as you would baby utencils I have never been plagued with contaminants and I do not use airlock never have. The grommet has a lead going to a fish tank heater and excess Co2 escapes that way and sits on the top of the brew. It does not dissapate and stays at atmosphere pressure. If Oxidisation really attacks beer then transfering the beer to a secondary would be disastrous. I do this now at least for the last 10 or so batches and it does improve the taste and clarity.

So there it is. I do appreciate your comments and hope I have prompted more from you both and any truely chemical effect of a mix of fresh air(albeit with bacteria) introdused into a mainly Co2 environment.

Don't wait 15 mins next time, wade straight in and give me both barrels.
Oh yes G'Day and happy brewing to both of you
 
If you drink it in one night, no problem - but if you try to keep a partially emptied one I think you'll be disappointed. The theory that the air will stay above the CO2 blanket, I've tested several times in the form of hand-pumped kegs that I've taken home after parties. You gotta finish them quick once they've been tapped or they get that yucky oxidized taste within a couple of days. The only way around it is to use CO2 to serve.

Good luck with your system, I do applaud your resourcefulness.
 
I guess I don't understand. If you are going to put on the Shroeder valves, why take a chance?

Put on the schroeder valves and charge with CO2.

Seems obvious to me.
 
The premise of all these arguments is the perceived need for this beer to be stored safely in its 5 litre container for a number of days.

Boys, this is 5 litres. People have been using these things for years to ferment beers and to serve from them. The point you are missing is 5 litres isn't a lot of beer. A few good drinkers will knock this off in a short time, way before oxidisation will take effect. The bike valve idea is okay to get the beer out quicker, but really not necessary if you have the right beer in the barrel.

My suggestion - go find some good english ale recipes. These are lower carbonation brews, they don't need to be fizzy like an APA. Naturally carb the ale, chill down to 12C and have a CAMRA style real ale festival. Get a few mates with a few mugs, throw a few darts, play some snooker, do whatever the Brits do (lose at sport mainly) and enjoy a real ale day. These are meant for one night stands. If you want to preserve the drink, use the real kegs with proper gas .
 
Guys, I actually mentioned that an evening's use isn't going to be a problem. Neither loss of condition nor spoilage will be perceptible in that time frame. Any fool knows you can use a party pump to push beer out of a keg, even over the course of a weekend, without ill effect. It's common knowledge. Loss of condition is relatively quick; spoilage can take three or four days to develop.

If you're going to drink the entire volume in the course of an evening, quoting the ratios of elemental gases and microbiological load in the unfiltered air, then arriving at erroneous conclusions about further CO2 pickup and atmospheric turbulence within the container is time-wasting mental masturbation of the worst description. You're trying to make yourself look like a brain while at the same time trying to prove wrong thousands of years of experience and millions of brewers. Someone who tries to do that is an idiot who thinks he's clever.

Terry, about this "test". Your test isn't. Where's the broad representative sample? Where's the control? If you're going to call what you've described a test, then hundreds of colleges and universities in the United States conduct the same test on Friday and Saturday evenings. Not in a lab, though; in fraternity houses.

:rolleyes:

Bob
 
I don't understand why there is any discussion at all for an evening's consumption. Why do anything at all to the container. A screw top lid will suffice. Just unscrew and pour a cup and recap. Repeat until gone. Any mod beyond the screw top is polishing a turd.

The only reason at all to think about pressurizing the vessal is for longer term storage. In that case then, it is only sensible to use CO2 to charge.
 
Points taken. I have slightly overprimed by 10% so there will be a slight excess of Co2 available. The beer will be ok as long as it can be delivered without venting.

Anyway the die is cast I filled and primed it yesterday. It is intended for Christmas so longevity will not probably be an issue.

One point, How is it that when beer is transfered from the fermenter to the secondary the beer does not become oxidised then?. Could it be that the Co2 released forms a protective blanket?. I believe that is the case and as Co2 is heavier than air it just sits there stopping possible oxidation.

I will ponder on this and your comments which by the way are not taken lightly. I do respect your accumulated knowledge.
 
One point, How is it that when beer is transfered from the fermenter to the secondary the beer does not become oxidised then?. Could it be that the Co2 released forms a protective blanket?. I believe that is the case and as Co2 is heavier than air it just sits there stopping possible oxidation.

Unfortunately, oxidization does indeed occur during transfer, unless the receiving vessel is purged of air with carbon dioxide gas before the transfer is begun. However, the level of oxidization is generally low enough that it can be dealt with by the yeast during conditioning; moreover, the levels are generally so low as to be undetectable. In commercial breweries, where pumps are used to push beer from vessel to vessel, purging the receiving vessel is much more important because the flow is much more turbulent than homebrew-scale transfer operations.

The CO2 released from the racking beer isn't released (off-gassed) quickly enough to force air out of the receiving vessel. Further, atmospheric turbulence caused by the rapidly-changing volumes of air and liquid in the receiving vessel mix the small amount of off-gassed CO2 and ambient air. Even further, there is insufficient CO2 dissolved in the beer before racking to completely displace the ambient air in a vessel, regardless of that vessel's size. There isn't even enough to make a blanket.

Regards,

Bob
 
Well, 5L is just too damn little beer to worry too much about. Now if'n I was to try to drink all that by myself, then I would warrant extra thought, but for 2-3 guys, this would be about a night or two.

I'd like to see pics of the vessel you plan to use. I would worry about getting good seal and it withstanding multiple use.

Oxidation should not really be an issue if it is drank in a day or two, especially if it's cold, and not sloshed around too much. That said, it WILL go flat , so you will need a pump of some sort to re-pressurize the thing when it gets low (unless you are drinking it all real quick)

Seems like a reasonable project if the beer is consumed relatively quickly.
 
I will see if I can post a picture. At present the square cornered container is taking on a very round shape as the secondary carbonation takes place.

With the preassure build up it will be interesting just how much carbonisation is lost as it is dispenced especially as it will bemain sealed as long as possible.

I just saw an add for a Heineken keg. It is a 5 litre round Aluminum pressured container that a customer fits a delivery tube to serve. It appears as if it is a one use keg.

Question how would they ensure the beer remains prime to the last drop in a sealed container. Sounds like a party pig principle. How does that work?.

If I could afford it I would invest in a Co2 cylinder and I would not concern myself with this. At the moment my available funds go towards buying ingrediants
 
If I could afford it I would invest in a Co2 cylinder and I would not concern myself with this. At the moment my available funds go towards buying ingrediants

A CO2 bike pump with a schroeder valve would be pretty inexpensive.

bike pumps

For what you are talking about, a CO2 tank, regulator, etc would be overkill.
 
Problem the container could not stand the pressure and forced some of the beer out of the tap. I placed it in the fridge with only a week of conditioning so it was a failed experiment.
So I will look to see if i can get a small "Propper" keg.

I am waiting for the "I told you so" :p

Back to the drawing board
 
What a brain. I have it. As I said my water container could not stand the pressure(Oprerative word) so it came to me a small water sprayer. They come in all sizes from 2 litres up. So they stand the pressure.
If a small container is used it could be pumped out if the pressure drops
There is also the possibility of adapting it to Co2 by fitting a soda bottle top or a carbonator cap.

Quite excited about this. By the way the beer left in the water container I used still was under pressure and dispensed ok with good carbonation so I think a pressure sprayer will work.
 
You guy's are going to tell me next you spell colour as color. We use English English in Australia not quite what you use. Litre not liter.
 
Well I will offer this once and once only. There will be no pictures and this will be the only time I shall mention it. But from a previous post I mentioned the possibility of using a pressure water sprayer as a mini keg.

Anyway here it is.
I purchased 2 x 2 litre units that had hand pumps. Stands pressure up to 45lb per square inch. I filled and primed it. and let it carb. With a bigger unit I intend to fit a bladder over the central air pump to segregate the air from the beer and by compressing the bladder I achieve what Tap-A-Draft does with its citric acid and bicarbonate of soda pouches.

A 2 litre unit does not hold sufficient beer where storage becomes an issue but is ideal to take out. therefore using air will suffice.

With a larger unit obviously the bladder will be inflated as needed and will keep the pressure at a nominal value, the Co2 beng kept in solution and will be a cheap mini keg.

First trial with the 2 litre one( will use your Liter if it makes you happy) worked out better than expected. The naturally carbed beer had sufficient pressure to pour the first litre. I then pumped to deliver the remaining litre. I kept it in the fridge and finished it in two days. Time will tell what effects air contamination will have. still to test that.

I did modify it. I opened up the delivery hole still keeping the sealing function intact and removed the spray componants so as to get a steady pour not a spray..

One thing I did notice that when the 2 litre unit was half full and I pumped it up to pressure the head was perfect. I believe it could be due to the nitrogen in the air as the foam clung to the glass. The beer taste was excellent and no characteristics was lost.


Anyway there it is. As I said I will not mention it again, it is an idea that I had and will use now to suppliment my bottles. I will probably only use the 2 litre units untill I can source some suitable cylindical bladders. A large condom comes to mind :).

The units seem to come in. 1, 2, 3, 5, 10, 12, and 25 litre's so even the large unit will fit in a fridge. Bit heavy though. I will go for the 3 litre units eventually but I will need bladders.

So there you have it, to use or scoff at. If you do use the idea I would be interested to hear how you clamp the bladder to the central pump and if you replaced the delivery tube to a larger diameter one. If you wish to further or discuss ideas in this direction please email me.

[email protected]
 
You guy's are going to tell me next you spell colour as color. We use English English in Australia not quite what you use. Litre not liter.

Unfortunately, Terry, even English English forbears the use of possessive apostrophes in words intended to indicate more than one of a thing. Moreover, I invite you to investigate the correct use of punctuation, as well as sentence construction.

Spelling is only one part of the language; if you're going to take someone to task over that one issue, it is wise to have all of your linguistics above reproach, lest you be exposed to ridicule.

Bob
 
I am a suburban cockney born in the Thames valley, I am afraid spelling, punctuation, grammar and I never got along too well so yes you are probably right. Ridicule I thrive on it, means I have struck a nerve. I do stand corrected and accept your statement. I still believe you lot should speak proper like me.

Anyway more to the point You never had anything to say about my absolutly fantastic idea. You remind me of an english teacher I had. I painted a word picture of a scene. He only saw my errors totally missed the point. Good job I do not create road signs. you would miss your turn :).

Anyway thanks for your comment I really do accept your return. I am afraid I am too old to change now. So if I post again please accept that my schooling was perhaps not as complete as yours. Due to our circumstances back in the early fifties I started work at 14 so I did not get a chance to learn about the finer points of my language. High school was for the rich and privileged at that time.

Actually the languages I am quite conversant in are C, VB and Java. The syntax of which are more tolerant of my prose. Actually they complain if I am wrong.

So! I wish you a very good new year and a very healthy one, to you and yours and I do hope you can spend time commenting on other posts of mine so that I may learn.
 
When you get this ghetto keg system figured out I'd love to see pics. It's always interesting to see how far you can take homebrew equipment to the ends of the earth! Myself, I'm getting ready to build a lagering setup using a compact fridge, two cornies with the gas posts removed, some tubing and a couple of worm clamps. If I pull this off I'll be brewing 9 gallons of lager in a 5 cubic foot fridge in the garage. :ban:
 
Terry, I'm a fellow Aussie and I think this idea is pure genius! With how expensive party keg systems and associated gassing paraphernalia is over here, I think I'll have to adopt your idea. Especially as I'm quite happy to bottle, but being able to make up a party keg would be quite useful. Have you had any thoughts as to how you'd make the bladder?
 
The bladder has to satisfy these factors:

1. Be able to expand easily
2. Suitable clamping system of bladder to central pump
3. Not have a reaction to beer or Co2(Food Grade)

There are other points to make the ultimate mini keg

The delivery tube is a small dia and would be better slightly larger.

It also runs parallel to the pump and ideally would be better re-aligned to the inside of the container allowing the bladder to expand completly

The spray nozzle will need modification.

Having said all that I opened the delivery hole still allowing the sealing mechanism to work. I also removed the spray componants.

As the unit I got from "Bunnings" was the 2 litre at <$8 I will just use the air pumped in for the last half of the beer.

I am looking for a suitable bladder and will even try and source a specially fabricated one. The idea has merit and I believe will sell. The bladder being the solution.

I am retired and will treat it as a project but will keep you posted as I hope you will me.

The two litre is really ideal as they fit in an esky are cheap and 3 or 4 will satisfy any party. They are easily sanitised and storable and do not take up much fridge space.

Plus I do not believe in a few days the air contamination is a factor to worry about. Only time will tell there. I am about to refill and try again, this time checking the contamination factor. It will be stored in a fridge so I believe over those few days I should not experiance any ill effects. Remember it will be initially stored full then chilled and will then remain chilled until emptied.

My initial trial with a Decore water container failed (Failed to hold preasure)

By the way "Big W" has a 3 litre for about $13 and a 5 litre for $18 all of simular design each supposively capable of 45lb per sq inch.

Enjoy the journey

Terry
 
Terry is the container itself food grade? I was thinking you could use a large heavy ballon for your bladder, but that wouldn't be food grade, and might even impart a taste, which would obviously be no good. BTW, I think the bladder idea is pretty clever! Seems like a good way to repressurize without allowing air to actually contact the beer.
 
Uhmm...I guess I'm missing something.

I was thinking that portability was key here, and the reason for the small 5L size...to take to a cookout or something.

However, for whatever the reason, I've seen no mention of cooling the beer in this apparatus.

So, unless you like drinking hot beer, I'm thinking that icing a twelve pack down in a plastic cooler will be much quicker, and plenty effective!

Unless of course, I AM missing something!

Pogo
 
Pogo Obviously once fully carbed the unit would be chilled in a fridge before drinking.

Gonefishing I hope so. The first trial did not kill me or appear to have imparted any off flavours. Remember a water sprayer is designed to accept many solutions including fertalizer and weed killer. I do not suggest you using a contaminated one of course.

The bladder is on the agenda I would not want a rubber taste. That's why I suggested a condom, seriously :) but the lubricant would have to be removed.

I have just filled the unit with Cerveza I had ready to bottle in my secondary.
Being quite warm at the moment it is carbing nicely. I primed it with 3 1/2 spoons of sugar. which is 1 spoonfull more than usual for the 2 litre's which is 2 2/3 long necks.

Cerveza consumed a tad over 0 it is quite refreshing. Forget Lime, have it as a chaser for Vodka (Out of freezer) and Herring. Made for each other, just the right combination. I would add it is not an everyday ale but adds to the varieties to have in stock. I like to have at least 4 types cold at any time.

I am aiming at a higher carbonation initially. One thing I am looking into is head retention and I am observing that my bottled beer has plenty of Co2 but will not release it fast enough to support the head so squirting it from this sprayer does improve the head.

So far it is working out ok. Thoughts for future. Trigger system needs attention. but for the 2 litre units they appear good as standard.

For the record it is the "Hills" make I am using. By the way I will contact the company and see if they want to redesign the unit to serve as a keg.
 
I use casks like that to carb and condition and then bottle. It steadies carbonation and allows you to over carb with out the issue of bottle bombs... i actully found that the cask contract as you drain out the brew and that shaking the brew casues the release of CO2 and allows pressure to be restored and no O2 being reintroduced in to the enviroment... This works wonderfully well for me and i havent had oxidation problems. I would sugest trying it because some of us have a tendancy for prejuduice.

Cheers
 
Hmm! never thought of that. Good point Shake and pour. or as the good old James Bond would like it "Shaken and not Stirred" Maybe he was giving us the drum in his secret way.

For NQ3X "Drum" That is an Australian term for inside info, the gossip or something interesting. I will get you talking proper like I does yet.:drunk:

Yes that makes sense. Also I thought that as the beer warms up slightly say during an everning it too will give off more Co2 also helping to push it out.

2nd day another 18 to go before it goes in the fridge for at least a day. Ahh! patience, don't leave me now. I'm like a kid waiting for Christmas day.

i actully found that the cask contract as you drain out the brew

Probably will not happen as I selected the spray bottle as it is made of solid plastic and supposively able to stand 45 lb/Sq inch. The first trial did not go the distance I am afraid, Only let it carb for a week. The result has caused me to post this and I expect the final result to be positive. I contacted "Hills" the manufacturer and briefly told them of my idea and gave them the oportunity to come on board with me.

I was a production design engineer for over 33 years and designing the modifications is a breeze. I could even design the plastic dies if need be. Give me something to get my teeth in. Keeps dementure away.
 
Well the first idea worked well albeit due to the small diameter delivery hole it could only be dispensed slowly.

The alternate idea makes a perfect mini keg. It worked so well that I am considering marketing the idea as it is unique.

I am going for a 3 litre version as that represents 4 long necks and does not take up much fridge space. There is also a pressure requirement that has to exceed atmospheric pressure for the whole of the ammount so that no air will contaminate it.

I have two 2 litre mini kegs that I experimented with and will change to the 3 litre type. The existing ones will be a present for my wifes gardening exploits, fertaliser and weed killer.

Note to self. Identify the mini kegs.

So there we have it.
 
Well I have two 2 litre kegs. I know a 2 litre pet bottle could be used but a standard tap will not fit.

What I did was cut the special nut out of the spray head. I then used that to clamp a reducing socket (From Hardware which I rounded the square corners. I used an "O" ring to seal when clamped by the above nut. In the now internal female thread I screw the tap.

Usage:-

Get a small balloon and insert about 1/3 cup beer a pinch of sugar seal and sanitise (Reason later)

Fill and prime 2 litre keg with beer/sugar. Push balloon into neck of keg. Assemble as above. Let the keg carb up tap down.

After 3 weeks or so Release little beer to clear sediment then refrigerate.

As the beer is dispensed the pressure build up in the balloon expands and replaces the beer dispensed. The ballon is burst and removed after.

I am not going for a bigger Spray Bottle as 2 litres is quite sufficient and a couple is great for carrying to a party in an eski.

I am satisfied with my project and have my cheap kegs. I have not arrived at the proper charge for the balloons yet as there is weeks between each trial. I have some small round balloons. They have to expand as big as the inside of the keg and some. If anyone experiments I would be interested on the ratio of beer to sugar you have used.

I have yet to find if the balloon perishes in the beer, time will tell
 
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