Making large batches...equipment

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BryanZ

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I'm a complete beginner to brewing, I have a couple questions about going large scale (compared to what I'm doing now atleast)

Like 200gallon batches and such

I was just wondering what the expensive things I'm not thinking of are, what is difficult about doing it at such a large scale

Just brainstorming here, I know I'm a long ways away, but if I can start looking for parts the more time the better

I was thinking of a oil tank for a home would make a good boiler and fermenter.

Maybe connect 5 or 6 car radiators in series and have them sit in cold water to cool the batch on its trip to the fermenter

For the boiler, because it's not a round container I could put 2 or 3 motors on the top in order to stir it...

I dunno, it just seems so easy....when I know it's not

what are some more complicated issues I'm not thinking about, I know people spend several thousand dollars on a 200 gallon setup, why?
 
ok just found out radiators wont work, maybe solid aluminum turbo intercoolers though, whatever, I'm sure I can figure that out
 
Things that immediately pop to mind:

1. The legal limit for homebrewing is 200 gallons a year per household (in the US), so you would only be able to brew once.

2. Are oil tanks and car radiators even remotely 'food safe'? Could be hazardous material used in the construction, like lead solder.

3. 200 gallons of boiling wort has a huge amount of stored energy, and although I am not able to do the physic calculations, I would assume it would take a huge amount of cold water to bring that much volume to pitching temperature.

4. How would you move that volume of liquid around? It would have to be pumped, and how much would a food grade pump cost to move that sort of volume around in a timely manner?

5. Keeping a mash that size at a constant, uniform temperature would also be very difficult.

That's all I can think of right now, but those are pretty big hurdles...and you would have to have a pretty big keggerator or one massive collection of bottles to hold 200 gallons!

Rhino
 
I've heard of the occasional 55gal drum homebrew system. Those are the largest I've heard of and are by far the exception. (I'm sure someone will pitch in with their 80bbl homebrew system to prove me wrong now).

However, if you're curious your local craftbrewery will likely be happy to give you a tour. I went to Clipper City here in Baltimore recently. They have 10x 130 bbl primaries! Their copper was about 75 bbl or so, meaning they have to brew twice to fill a fermenter.

During the tour I was standing next to a blowoff from one of the fermemters that was gurgling into a 5gal bucket which was overflowing with yeasty froth that then ran down a drain. It even gurgled onto my pants!
 
from my limited familiarity with the fuel oil tanks in houses....they're made from steel.

That works fine with oil, but the acidic wort will rust them out in a hurry...putting loads of iron in your beer, and creating lots of pits in the tank for bacteria to hide, you could treat the inside, but you'd still have a problem with cleaning...there's lots of nooks and crannies that would be difficult to keep clean.

you might get away with using one as a boil kettle, but you'd still have the rust issues...and don't forget water weighs more than oil...and you don't want 200 gallons of boiling water to suddenly find itself uncontained
 
As far as doing this cheaply... I hope cheap to you is similar to buying a new summer house on a whim, because if it is not this will not be cheap project. Put it this way, just your ingredients for one batch on that bad boy will cost you around $1200 USD, maybe less due to the ridiculous bulk you could buy in.

Your best bet would to go, as previously suggested, to a local brewpub and find out how much their setup cost and where they got their equipment. You can find liquidated microbreweries on ebay and criagslist every once in a while of that size for around... say... $25,000. Sounds cheap to me. :D

Not to rain on your parade, but I would start with a smaller batch size first. Get into it, and if you still want to have a brewpub sized homebrewery, get the permits together and brew to your hearts content.

Good luck with the madness!!! :mug:
 
BryanZ said:
what are some more complicated issues I'm not thinking about, I know people spend several thousand dollars on a 200 gallon setup, why?
Click to expand...

1) Energy required to bring 200g to boil.

2) Means of accepting and storing pallet loads of grain.

3) Fermentation Temperature Control.

4) Means of transferring: Hot Wort, Grains - Dry and Spent, Finished beer

5) Potential Risk of 1 Bad Batch
 
Oh, and as far as cooling wort goes, you could use any run of the mill counterflow chiller and a pump. Probably one of the simplest parts of upgrading batch sizes...
 
As everyone else said 200 gallons is a lot and you could only brew one batch per year.

I brew 25 gallon batches and it is difficult for me to store that much beer, to store 200 gallons you would need a huge walk in cooler.

Since you cannot sell the beer you make at home it is not worth brewing such large batches, you want some variety anyways.
 
Ok, so basically don't even think about going to that scale until I'm lisenced. To be honest I sort of pictured doing it Drew Carrey style until I have large scale equipment, but I guess it's not as easy as he makes it on the show.

does anybody have the slightest clue how much it costs for a lisence to brew and sell your beer? I am in NJ, about 5 mins from philly. I will probably sell it in PA as from what I understand its next to impossible in NJ.

It is my dream, and I've been doing some research on it with a lot of mixed results. I really need to talk to someone whos done it, but I don't have access to that right now.

Does anybody have the slightest clue? I'm sure I could get a business loan for the equipment and facility, but is a lisence going to cost me like $50k, $200k, $1mill?, I really don't have a clue.
 
There is a huge risk involved when taking out loans for a brewery and so getting a loan would not be that easy.

You are new at brewing and you really have no clue how a brewery runs and what it takes to market beer.

I've been brewing 14 years, I have multiple awards from contests around the U.S. and I know people that have owned breweries and other who are brewers at brewpubs. With everything I have learned about brewing over the years the one thing I have learned is brewing is a tough business and if you don't have an excellent product, a huge amount of money and determination you will not make it.

Before you even concider brewing for a living you need to work on your skills as a brewer, you need to learn everything there is about brewing and beer styles and try to get a job as a brewer to learn how a brewery operates.
 
Monster Mash said:
As everyone else said 200 gallons is a lot and you could only brew one batch per year.

I brew 25 gallon batches and it is difficult for me to store that much beer, to store 200 gallons you would need a huge walk in cooler.

Since you cannot sell the beer you make at home it is not worth brewing such large batches, you want some variety anyways.
Click to expand...
Mash Man....

You have the best beer p0rn E V A R ! ! ! !
 
You can either hire a head brewer or learn yourself. You can start by volunteering as an assistant brewer cleaning out the mash tun and stuff. Most folks start out brewing as a hobby for many years before wanting to take their well tested creations commercially. If you want to do it quickly as a business venture, hiring a really good, awarding winning brewer is the only way. You won't be selling much beer if it's your 10th batch ever.
 
Monster Mash said:
There is a huge risk involved when taking out loans for a brewery and so getting a loan would not be that easy.

You are new at brewing and you really have no clue how a brewery runs and what it takes to market beer.

I've been brewing 14 years, I have multiple awards from contests around the U.S. and I know people that have owned breweries and other who are brewers at brewpubs. With everything I have learned about brewing over the years the one thing I have learned is brewing is a tough business and if you don't have an excellent product, a huge amount of money and determination you will not make it.

Before you even concider brewing for a living you need to work on your skills as a brewer, you need to learn everything there is about brewing and beer styles and try to get a job as a brewer to learn how a brewery operates.
Click to expand...

I have the determination, the cash, and I definatly have the business skills. The only thing I don't have is the beer. I've already been brain storming how to get different brews.

I'm an avid beer drinker, and I have realized that making a good beer is really not the key to success, it mainly just marketing.

Corona, budweiser, coors, etc, all make billions with crap beer. I'm not saying I'm going to make anything like that, but I don't think the brewing side of it is the difficult part.

In order to get to that point (hopefully within 5 years) I need your experienced advice, please if educate me on what you have learned in your years about starting a business, lisencing, money needed, etc.

Basically my plan goes as follows....pay cash for the lisence, and then maybe build a bigger garage at my house, and set up a small scale brewery and sell to the local liquor stores, friends, local bars, etc. Once I judge that its a good investment, I will go ahead and get a loan for the big equipment and a warehouse. I doubt it would cost me more then 250K, which is really not that huge of an investment considering the warehouse and the equipment can be sold if I am a failure.

I'm just brainstorming btw, you probably know way more then me, which is why I joined here, so people like you could share your experience.
 
Bobby_M said:
You can either hire a head brewer or learn yourself. You can start by volunteering as an assistant brewer cleaning out the mash tun and stuff. Most folks start out brewing as a hobby for many years before wanting to take their well tested creations commercially. If you want to do it quickly as a business venture, hiring a really good, awarding winning brewer is the only way. You won't be selling much beer if it's your 10th batch ever.
Click to expand...

This is not going to happen for several years, sorry if I sound like I'm getting ahead of myself. I know I come off like it's as easy as 1-2-3, I'm aware it's not. I just don't know how else to ask the questions I need answers for
 
BryanZ said:
Basically my plan goes as follows....pay cash for the lisence, and then maybe build a bigger garage at my house, and set up a small scale brewery and sell to the local liquor stores, friends, local bars, etc. Once I judge that its a good investment, I will go ahead and get a loan for the big equipment and a warehouse. I doubt it would cost me more then 250K, which is really not that huge of an investment considering the warehouse and the equipment can be sold if I am a failure.

I'm just brainstorming btw, you probably know way more then me, which is why I joined here, so people like you could share your experience.
Click to expand...

You can't sell beer you made at home, you won't even be able to get a license until you have a business location and at that point you had better have customers already lined up.
 
Monster Mash said:
You can't sell beer you made at home, you won't even be able to get a license until you have a business location and at that point you had better have customers already lined up.
Click to expand...

exactly the type of info I was looking for, anything else?
 
Go to your state's website and do a search for liquor licenses, brewery licenses, brewpub, microbrewing. (You get the idea.)

You may also want to go the BATF website at the Federal level.

That just tells you about licensing. Marketing your product, however, is going to cost you a great deal more than the actual cost of the product.

I sold advertising to merchants on a group of radio stations for almost nine years. Obtaining a rung on the positioning ladder inside the consumers' heads is an extremely expensive and an extremely slow process.
 
It's not easy man. Even when you convince a few places to carry the beer, people have to want it and buy it. The buy rite near me has a rack with Climax Brewing growlers. I asked them if they sold a lot of it. The guy that stocks the shelves told me he can't remember the last time they had to order more. I mean, that's a fine local brew (Roselle Park, NJ) but there's just so much selection out there.

I'd recommend starting a restaurant first, get some cash flow, then add a brewery inside. It's the food that will keep people coming in. Jersey is a bit saturated with brewpubs though.
 
Bryan Z,

You might want to look over this site http://www.beertown.org/craftbrewing/about.html

It is the home of the Brewers Association. They have LOTS of information about the craft brewing industry. Send them an E-mail and tell them your plans. They should be able to suggest more information for you.

Look through all the links, read the statistics and join the BA. Get the Brewers Resource Directory.

Contact the turn-key brewery suppliers. They may have some used equipment on hand they may be willing to sell.

A lot of the early brew-pubs and micros started out with used dairy tanks.

You really don't want to use ANY equipment that is not stainless.

You are correct in thinking THE MOST IMPORTANT thing in the brewing BUISNESS is marketing. If no one buys the beer, it doesn't matter how good it is. You should contact a distributor to see what sort of "product" they might be able to sell. In some states a brewery is NOT allowed to self distribute.

Here is another link http://www.beerinsights.com/
This is for a trade publication called beer marketeers insights. It should give you a better idea of what sort of challenges you might face.

When I was hired to open the Hubcap Brewery and Kitchen in Vail, CO in 1991, the entire build out of the brewery and restaurant was about $350,000. that was with a 7 bbl, steam fired, two vessel, brewhouse, three 7 bbl open fermentors (they had lids, they just weren't pressure vessels) and 12 used Grundy tanks (British pressure vessels adapted for serving).

The SandLot Brewery at Coors Field was built as a pure brewery. 10 bbl three vessel, steam brewhouse (mash mixer, Lauter tun, Kettle) with four 20 bbl cylindro-conical fermenters, four 20 bbl aging tanks, and eight serving tanks. Coors was paying the bills. The budget was $500,000. We spent $800,000.00 before opening day. I made a few mods to the gear and probably spent an additional $50,000 in upgrades during the first year.

The last place I was involved with was the RockYard Brewing Co. Another pub. Budget was $250,000 each for the Brewhouse equipment and kitchen equipment. Both came in over budget.

It typically takes 2-3 years of operation before a business venture will show a good profit. In budgeting start-up costs, you should also figure in operating capital to keep you going during the months when you are running at a loss.
 
Wayne1 said:
The SandLot Brewery at Coors Field was built as a pure brewery. 10 bbl three vessel, steam brewhouse (mash mixer, Lauter tun, Kettle) with four 20 bbl cylindro-conical fermenters, four 20 bbl aging tanks, and eight serving tanks. Coors was paying the bills. The budget was $500,000. We spent $800,000.00 before opening day. I made a few mods to the gear and probably spent an additional $50,000 in upgrades during the first year.
Click to expand...

great info man!

think you could give me a little more info? you sound pretty knowledgable on the commercial aspect of it

I wouldn't mind some educated guesses on some stuff so I can figure out my potential proft, specifically on the setup I quoted....

when going commercial how long is the batch in each fermenter and and secondary? about the same as a homebrew? or is there some other things that speed up the process?

I'll just guess that the longest process is the aging tanks....Because you can only produce as much beer as your tanks can hold... so i'm gonna take a guess of 2 weeks in the secondary tank.

if my math is correct, I have a maximum output of 5314 gallons of beer/month, or 56,682 12oz bottles

any idea how much I'm going to pay for ingredients/water/glass bottle/etc? Just make a guess on how much ingredients would cost on a 600gallon batch

What do the brewers usually sell the 6 packs for....$4.50? kegs?

I'm not seeing too much room for profit here, even with the brewery operating at max output

The most money I could probably ever sell 12 oz bottles for is 75 cents a bottle, which would put me at a max income of $42,500/month, which is like a small diner lol. I guess there is less overhead with a brewery. Very few employees
 
holy crap

I just called up a bottle distributor

I got a price quote for 10,000 bottles

44 cents a bottle!!!!!!!!!!!

thats absurd

how do you make any profit????
 
are you the man who had that brewery?

think you could give me some advice?
 
wow man, just read your 4 part journey to becoming a brewer

fantastic read, wish I could buy you a beer
 
scoates said:
Here are some pictures I took of 3 breweries I toured near Toronto, last November:
http://montrealers.ca/node/487

Some interesting ideas, there. I especially like the frosty glycol pipes (-:

S
Click to expand...


:off: A little off topic... Maybe I live in another universe but... Is it just me or did that brewery do just enough cleaning to not infect their beer and just say screw the rest? From the mold on the walls to that poor copper instrument panel that was all oxidized and scratched up to the mineral buildup on the fermenters themselves... It's a shame I tell you! A shame indeed! hehe Looked like a damn good time though :D :off:
 
Monster Mash said:
You can't sell beer you made at home, you won't even be able to get a license until you have a business location and at that point you had better have customers already lined up.
Click to expand...

So in your backyard if you put up a very nice brew shed that met all food & safety guidelines etc... you can't get a liscense to brew and sell beer on a very small scale? (35-40ish gallons a week small. Ultra micro lite brewery)
 
Grimsawyer said:
So in your backyard if you put up a very nice brew shed that met all food & safety guidelines etc... you can't get a liscense to brew and sell beer on a very small scale? (35-40ish gallons a week small. Ultra micro lite brewery)
Click to expand...
not unless your home is zone as industrial/commercial.
 

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