Question of Ethics during the Hop "Crisis"

I was browsing Ebay tonight looking for decent deals on equipment, and found a guy thats selling whole leaf, pellet, and plug hops in 8 oz to full pound quantities. Since he had quite a few up for sale, I looked him up, and found he owns a shop in my area.

The funny thing is, when you go to this guys store, he won't sell you hops without buying a recipe kit. If I can buy his hops (ONLY HOPS, no recipe) on ebay, shouldn't I be able to do the same in his shop?

Not only that, but his prices in store are completely different than on his ebay "store" and he is definitely price gouging.

I have had issues with this guy before messing up a recipe (horribly I might add), but this just seems completely rediculous.

Perhaps I'm off-point on this, but does anyone else have an opinion on this situation?

I know that many hbs's, mine included, are only selling hops with the purchase of either grain, extract, or a kit. As for price gouging on ebay, that's a ****** move. It sounds like you need to find a new hbs.

If you were looking for a deal and he was willing to give you one on-line, but not in his store, I would try to press him into the deal. If he refused I would tell him that I was going to turn him into the BBB and do it.

I agree, ****** gouger...

homebrewer_99 said:

****** gouger...

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That sounds so painful:cross:

there are sooo many places to buy on the web! I wouldn't give him the time of day...
JJ

Well isnt it his right to set his own policies at his store?

BuffaloSabresBrewer said:

Well isnt it his right to set his own policies at his store?

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Sure, he is, but having two policies is questionable.

Why would he give a better deal (if it is a better deal) to on-line customers and not walk-ins/regular customers who just need some hops?

Who knows, it may not be the price of the hops but the P&H charges he's making $$$ on.

c.n.budz said:

That sounds so painful:cross:

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Not really. It's all relative to the water pressure...

homebrewer_99 said:

Sure, he is, but having two policies is questionable.

Why would he give a better deal (if it is a better deal) to on-line customers and not walk-ins/regular customers who just need some hops?

Who knows, it may not be the price of the hops but the P&H charges he's making $$$ on.

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Because running a business online has alot less overhead. You can argue this point I know but still.

homebrewer_99 said:

If he refused I would tell him that I was going to turn him into the BBB and do it.

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Save yourself the call. You would get better results telling your pet goldfish...

Simple answer: Don't buy from him.

Yeah price gouging sucks, and it's not ethical, but as long as people keep paying, he's going to keep the prices high and make you buy extra stuff to get the hops. I have a LHBS that is a bit like that; everything in his store is way overpriced. Needless to say, I don't shop there anymore unless there's no other option.

We are also in MA - could you please PM me the name of the shop so we can avoid shopping there?

pldoolittle said:

Save yourself the call. You would get better results telling your pet goldfish...

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srsly...talk about a dog with no teeth.


OP: There are lots of business that set different prices and policies for their internet/ebay sales than they do for their walk-in customers...see this kinda thing quite a bit. If you don't like their policies & practices, I would speak with my dollar and shop elsewhere.

Ethical or not, possesion is 9/10's of the law. If he currently owns them he can sell them anywhere he wants for what he wants, and as long as someone is buying, he can keep doing it.

I say dont waste your time on him, there are plenty of other hbs out there.

Sounds like that LHBS is very STRANGE. If he won't honor his online price or his eBay price in his store, I would not frequent his STRANGE store and I would tell him that I do not shop at stores so STRANGE, but normal stores who appreciate customers regardless of how they buy, online or walk in.

How STRANGE.

Looks like Edwort knows who I'm talking about.

My issue is not with the fact that he sells his hops on ebay. My issue is that he raises the prices online, and is willing to sell in bulk to make a profit. When you go to his store, its completely different. You can't buy bulk hops, and you HAVE to buy a full recipe and equipment for him to sell you any hops at all. If I can buy it online in bulk, why can't I do so in-store?

You guys are right though, its his property and he can do whatever he wants with it. However it doesn't make his retail "choices" ethical. I'm happy to be limitted in the amount of hops I can buy if that means that my suppliers will have hops until the 2008 crops are in and the supplies are replenished. Ya, it sucks that I can't make a HUGE IPA, but I can live with it.

-I just can't live with someone who is supposed to be supporting homebrewers and then screwing us-

Well, don't let a STRANGE lhbs mess with your BREW. I must say, I have not seen STRANGEr thing while BREWing. There are plenty of other places online that would like your business.

pldoolittle said:

Save yourself the call. You would get better results telling your pet goldfish...

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Dang! Now I've got to buy a goldfish! It never ends....

NoClueBrewMaster said:

Looks like Edwort knows who I'm talking about.

My issue is not with the fact that he sells his hops on ebay. My issue is that he raises the prices online, and is willing to sell in bulk to make a profit. When you go to his store, its completely different. You can't buy bulk hops, and you HAVE to buy a full recipe and equipment for him to sell you any hops at all. If I can buy it online in bulk, why can't I do so in-store?

You guys are right though, its his property and he can do whatever he wants with it. However it doesn't make his retail "choices" ethical. I'm happy to be limitted in the amount of hops I can buy if that means that my suppliers will have hops until the 2008 crops are in and the supplies are replenished. Ya, it sucks that I can't make a HUGE IPA, but I can live with it.

-I just can't live with someone who is supposed to be supporting homebrewers and then screwing us-

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We're tracking, Brother!!

I drove 100 miles to our "local" HBS yesterday and didn't even buy 1 oz of hops. I looked, but that's all.

I have since moved on from using this LHBS anyhow. The guy couldn't even build a Kolsch kit correctly. Anyone ever by a 10 gallon MLT cooler conversion for 150 bucks? I doubt it... The funniest part of this guy is he dresses/acts like a hippy... At some point he kinda lost the hippy mentality... It's quite an insult to the grateful dead to use their logo's and act like this...

Yeah them hippies are nothing but trouble.

EdWort said:

Well, don't let a STRANGE lhbs mess with your BREW. I must say, I have not seen STRANGEr thing while BREWing. There are plenty of other places online that would like your business.

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I think a hearty guffaw is in order at this point in the thread :fro:

What shop are you talking about?

EDit: oH wait i get it now

homebrewer_99 said:

\Why would he give a better deal (if it is a better deal) to on-line customers and not walk-ins/regular customers who just need some hops?

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The obvious answer would be that there's more direct competition on teh interwebs than there probably is at his shop. It's not like there's a HBS on every corner, even in big cities. More competition typically either means better product or lower prices (or both), so it only makes sense that he would charge less online.

Hey, guys, FYI: if people are willing to pay it, then it's not gouging! Hell, I don't like paying $85/month for satellite teevee, but I don't consider it "gouging" just because it's more than I want to spend. I also wish Ferrari's cost $10,000, but I don't accuse them of gouging...

Look up the definition of capitalism. It's what our entire economy is based on and is basically the opposite of communism. It's really only price gouging if it's an item you can't live without like bottled water and food in a natural disaster. Some people think they're being price gouged when they buy a burger at Disney World, but it's not really the case because you are not forced to go there and are not held there against your will.

The truth is, it's his business and if you don't like the way its run, there are a hundred other places to buy from. Everyone hates capitalism when demand is high and they're on the buying end.

I think of Ebay as the most pure form of free market. It literally sets the value of any item almost instantly. If the price is too high, it sits. If it's not, it sells.

I don't understand which ethical principal is being broken here.

Bobby_M said:

Look up the definition of capitalism. It's what our entire economy is based on and is basically the opposite of communism. It's really only price gouging if it's an item you can't live without like bottled water and food in a natural disaster. Some people think they're being price gouged when they buy a burger at Disney World, but it's not really the case because you are not forced to go there and are not held there against your will.

The truth is, it's his business and if you don't like the way its run, there are a hundred other places to buy from. Everyone hates capitalism when demand is high and they're on the buying end.

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BRAVO! Finally someone else who understands econ 101...



I really get a huge kick out of this whole thing. One day I'm sitting around listening to people argue that the low prices at WalMart are bad for the economy and are "predatory". The next day, people are whining about "gouging" because a shop owner charges more for something because, um, supply is down.

Charge too little and it's predatory pricing. Charge too much and it's gouging. Charge the same as your competitors and it's collusion.

Evan!... you are quickly becoming my smiley idol

Down with the Capitalists. FREE BEER FOR EVERYONE!!

Bobby_M said:

I don't understand which ethical principal is being broken here.

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Those who don't understand economics think that an item's price should be tied solely to the base cost of the item. Thus when someone sells the same product for more in one location and less in another, they think that it's "unethical", not realizing that an item's price is not just set by its cost alone, but by other factors such as competition (as it is in this case). It's why, when you drive up route 1 between Paso Robles and Santa Barbara, there's like 2 gas stations, and you have no way to get across the mountains back to "civilization", so the gas stations charge twice as much for gas. The gas doesn't cost twice as much to make, does it? No. But its scarcity relative it its location and lack of competition serve to set the price that high. You wouldn't expect water to cost the same in the middle of the desert as it does in the middle of lake country, would ya?

If you have a basic understanding of economic principles you'll quickly realize that there has been no ethical breach here. On the other hand, if you're naive enough to think that a product should cost the same no matter where it's sold, then yeah, I guess it seems pretty unethical.

Reading Ed's response has given me a strange hankering to listen to some Clapton.

I also think that it's important to step back for a moment from our skewed view of things and realize that the hop "crisis" is really not that much of an emergency in the grand scheme of things. This is a hobby, this brewing thing we do. I know, to us, the hop shortage seems like the end of the world, but it's not like you HAVE to have hops like you HAVE to have water and food and clothing. Hops are not essential for survival (though we all may think so).

Denny's Evil Concoctions said:

Down with the Capitalists. FREE BEER FOR EVERYONE!!

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Alrighty comrade!

Evan! said:

Those who don't understand economics think that an item's price should be tied solely to the base cost of the item. Thus when someone sells the same product for more in one location and less in another, they think that it's "unethical", not realizing that an item's price is not just set by its cost alone, but by other factors such as competition (as it is in this case). It's why, when you drive up route 1 between Paso Robles and Santa Barbara, there's like 2 gas stations, and you have no way to get across the mountains back to "civilization", so the gas stations charge twice as much for gas. The gas doesn't cost twice as much to make, does it? No. But its scarcity relative it its location and lack of competition serve to set the price that high. You wouldn't expect water to cost the same in the middle of the desert as it does in the middle of lake country, would ya?

If you have a basic understanding of economic principles you'll quickly realize that there has been no ethical breach here. On the other hand, if you're naive enough to think that a product should cost the same no matter where it's sold, then yeah, I guess it seems pretty unethical.

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IF you read all of what I have said, my problem is not that he is selling his items on ebay or what he is charging. My problem is that he is willing to part with said items on ebay, yet won't do the same in his store front. To purchase hops from him, you have to purchase other items as well. Thats what seems unethical to me. He should be treating his "E-customers" the same as the guys that actually come into the store.

Also, I have taken Econ as well as other business related classes. I have a full understanding of supply and demand as well as standard business practices due to economy, location, etc.

This might be best solved with a swift punch to his head. Preferably while wearing a ski mask. It's not robbery if you don't steal nothin' (excuse the dbl negative).

Also hiring some hackers to hack his ebay account might be fun too.

But the most fun I think is to hire some unemployed college kids to protest outside of his store for week with those big ass protest signs. The protesting won't mean ****, but it would be amusing.

He's setting prices and practices differently for two totally different markets. Many businesses with both retail and online presence have different policies. Locally, he's competing with other local home brew shops. Online, he's competing with other online businesses. Why not just buy from him on Ebay and ask for a local pickup?

When you talk about ethics, you talk about some duty to others, whether an individual, a group, or the public as a whole. This guy is one of a large number of hops vendors. Other than to obey the law, he has no duty to sell his hops or anything else in any particular manner. Typically, the only relevant legal obligations are to refrain from deceptive practices and maintain fair competition. There is nothing unethical about offering his hops in one manner at the store and another at eBay. Likewise, if he wants to change his mind and offer them differently tomorrow, he can do so. He has no duty to anyone to offer those hops consistently across venues (so long as he obeys the law).

There is no "price gouging" here. Actual price gouging is when a vendor raises prices for necessities during or in anticipation of some emergency that will decrease the supply or increase the demand of those necessities. Those necessities are along the lines of food, potable water, fuel, and maybe even something like batteries or portable generators. Those emergencies are along the lines of natural disasters or wars. No matter how homebrewers may feel about it, hops are not a necessity, and a bad hop crop or hop warehouse fire is not an emergency. Vendors are simply raising their prices in response to a decreased supply and increased demand. It happens all the time.

However, you are the consumer, and you can choose to buy those hops or pass. If you do not like the guy's practices, move on. That is your power.

This goes back to what Evan! said. More and more often, consumers expect that they should always be able to get what they want, how they want it, when they want it, and at their chosen price. More precisely, consumers feel that vendors have some duty to make goods available to the public at some "fair" (read "cheap") and consistent (or consistently decreasing) price. No such duty exists.

(Good heavens. Did I just agree with Evan!? )


TL

TexLaw said:

When you talk about ethics, you talk about some duty to others, whether an individual, a group, or the public as a whole. This guy is one of a large number of hops vendors. Other than to obey the law, he has no duty to sell his hops or anything else in any particular manner. Typically, the only relevant legal obligations are to refrain from deceptive practices and maintain fair competition. There is nothing unethical about offering his hops in one manner at the store and another at eBay. Likewise, if he wants to change his mind and offer them differently tomorrow, he can do so. He has no duty to anyone to offer those hops consistently across venues (so long as he obeys the law).

There is no "price gouging" here. Actual price gouging is when a vendor raises prices for necessities during or in anticipation of some emergency that will decrease the supply or increase the demand of those necessities. Those necessities are along the lines of food, potable water, fuel, and maybe even something like batteries or portable generators. Those emergencies are along the lines of natural disasters or wars. No matter how homebrewers may feel about it, hops are not a necessity, and a bad hop crop or hop warehouse fire is not an emergency. Vendors are simply raising their prices in response to a decreased supply and increased demand. It happens all the time.

However, you are the consumer, and you can choose to buy those hops or pass. If you do not like the guy's practices, move on. That is your power.

This goes back to what Evan! said. More and more often, consumers expect that they should always be able to get what they want, how they want it, when they want it, and at their chosen price. More precisely, consumers feel that vendors have some duty to make goods available to the public at some "fair" (read "cheap") and consistent (or consistently decreasing) price. No such duty exists.

(Good heavens. Did I just agree with Evan!? )
TL

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I'm on the side of the TexLaw.

Evan is throwing you eastside right now...

TL, I felt the same way when I realized Evan and I now have some kind of agreement connection.

I have seen similar situations with a particular used car dealer in my area. They have one price on the car sitting in their lot, and another on Ebay. Just keep in mind everything is negotiable.