Parti-gyle

Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

mux

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 23, 2011
Messages
1,864
Reaction score
66
Location
Chicago
Any one doing parti-gyle. What are some good recipes/ combinations?
 
cswest said:
Search for "Pliny and the Blonde". They both came out real well for me.

Oh, nice. I was think about darker beer. I like IIPA and lighter beer combo. Thanks.
 
I have done a nice barley wine and esb combo before, and stout and porter... also you can always add some fresh grains before you go for second runnings to change it up a little.
 
I did a barleywine/mild combo that came out alright. It was my first (and only) partigyle attempt. If it's your first time, I'd recommend having some DME handy in case you don't hit your gravities, I'm glad I did.
 
I have done an DIPA and Blonde before. I am currently fermenting an English Barleywine and ESB partigyle. Next up will be a Belgian Golden Strong Ale and a Kolsh. My only tip is to try and reserve some of the first runnings for your "small beer". It is nice if you pick a "big" beer that includes some sugar in the recipe. It helps to boost the gravity and lets you use some of your first runnings for the second beer.
 
Fullers ESB and London Pride is a partigyle, mostly Maris Otter. Target, Northdown, Goldings and Challenger hops. I've been threatening to do this one for a while.

This is the thread that got me going on it. The Jamil Show also has a great podcast on their attempts. Pretty sure there's a link to it somewhere in there.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/can-you-brew-recipe-fullers-london-pride-179859/

Jw
 
I have a plan to do a SMaSH barleywine and ESB next month.

15# of Maris Otter for the grain and EKG for hopping. Planning on mashing low and hoping for a good *second* conversion to get a good OG for the ESB.
 
I have read before that barleywine and pale ale is a good combo... But I can't imagine the color coming out right for a pale ale, can anyone comment?
 
You can do any two beers that use the same base malt. Just add any crystal separately
 
You can do any two beers that use the same base malt. Just add any crystal separately

So if I wanted to do a barleywine I would have to do two mashes for the big beer? I thought that was contradictory to the process, I thought parti-gyle was one mash/two beers?

I was thinking that maybe the second runnings after sparging might be thin enough to dilute the color, but was unsure and hoping that someone here could confirm...
 
So if I wanted to do a barleywine I would have to do two mashes for the big beer? I thought that was contradictory to the process, I thought parti-gyle was one mash/two beers?

I was thinking that maybe the second runnings after sparging might be thin enough to dilute the color, but was unsure and hoping that someone here could confirm...

Nope, not two mashes. It's called capping. You just drain the first beer, then add crystal/roasted malts and wait a bit, and then drain the second beer. Crystal/roasted only needs to steep for ~20 minutes. If you need steeping grains for the first but not the second beer, you can steep it in water and add it separately to the boil. Actually, if you're using any dark malts that's good practice anyways, since you can add them at the end of the boil to reduce astringency. There is only one restriction to partigyle and that is that you can't make two beers with different base malts, which means you can't use a pound of munich in one beer but not the other...unless you wanted to do a second mini-mash, which you could do. ;) It's not as complicated as you think, it's actually the only way I brew now.

Also, I would avoid making a beer from entirely the second runnings, as I've heard that the flavor is inferior. I always do a 1/3-2/3 split, which results in a bit of the first runnings going into the second beer. Here's a handy chart: BT - Parti-Gyle Brewing
 
HollisBT said:
I was thinking that maybe the second runnings after sparging might be thin enough to dilute the color, but was unsure and hoping that someone here could confirm...

I'm more of a session beer guy and don't normally want 5 gallons of a big beer. This method allows me to make around two gallons of a big beer and 5 gallons of something with a lower gravity using one mash in my 10 gallon cooler.
 
Nope, not two mashes. It's called capping. You just drain the first beer, then add crystal/roasted malts and wait a bit, and then drain the second beer. Crystal/roasted only needs to steep for ~20 minutes. If you need steeping grains for the first but not the second beer, you can steep it in water and add it separately to the boil. Actually, if you're using any dark malts that's good practice anyways, since you can add them at the end of the boil to reduce astringency. There is only one restriction to partigyle and that is that you can't make two beers with different base malts, which means you can't use a pound of munich in one beer but not the other...unless you wanted to do a second mini-mash, which you could do. ;) It's not as complicated as you think, it's actually the only way I brew now.

Also, I would avoid making a beer from entirely the second runnings, as I've heard that the flavor is inferior. I always do a 1/3-2/3 split, which results in a bit of the first runnings going into the second beer. Here's a handy chart: BT - Parti-Gyle Brewing


I notice that you do partigyle brews exclusively these days. I was wondering if you could help a new comer to the practice formulate a recipe. I have the basics tenants down, I just get confused on the grain bill.

My plan is to brew a 1.100 barleywine and a 1.050 ESB from a SMaSH grain bed of maris otter. If my reckoning is correct, I need 15# of grain to get these gravities (referring to the Mosher table). My main question is: do I have to double this grain bill (to 30#) to ensure appropriate OGs? If yes, I fail to see how this is an economical method of brewing. My logic on the practice was to use only the first runnings of a 5 gallon grain bed (in this case, 15# MO) for the big beer, and then remash or sparge to get the small beer.

Using that method, I come up with on 4.7 gallons of pre boil volume for the big beer (mashing thin), so I would never get up to 5 gallons for that brew.

Any information you can give me would be greatly appreciated!
 
I think what you might be missing is that for 15 lbs of grain you will never get 5 gallons of barleywine AND 5 gallons of ESB. It is more likely that you could get 2.5 gallons of BW and 5 gallons of ESB. I don't know if you are familiar with the gravity points system but It goes something like this. For every pound of grain(base) you can expect to get so many points based on your efficiency. Lets say you get 25 points for every pound mashed. Times that by 15 and you get 625. You have 625 gravity points to play with. You could do 10 gallons of a 1.0625 beer. For an BW/ESB split you might do 2.5 gallons at 1.100 for your barleywine . You then have 375 gravity points to play with for you ESB. Roughly you get 6.5 gallons at about 1.054. Of course you can blend the worts to get whatever SG you are looking for.
 
I notice that you do partigyle brews exclusively these days. I was wondering if you could help a new comer to the practice formulate a recipe. I have the basics tenants down, I just get confused on the grain bill.

My plan is to brew a 1.100 barleywine and a 1.050 ESB from a SMaSH grain bed of maris otter. If my reckoning is correct, I need 15# of grain to get these gravities (referring to the Mosher table). My main question is: do I have to double this grain bill (to 30#) to ensure appropriate OGs? If yes, I fail to see how this is an economical method of brewing. My logic on the practice was to use only the first runnings of a 5 gallon grain bed (in this case, 15# MO) for the big beer, and then remash or sparge to get the small beer.

Using that method, I come up with on 4.7 gallons of pre boil volume for the big beer (mashing thin), so I would never get up to 5 gallons for that brew.

Any information you can give me would be greatly appreciated!


Yeah, you do need just around 15# of grain to get that. Double it? I'm not sure I understand. Normally, when you brew a very big beer your efficiency will suffer, but you are not brewing anything different than a 1.060-ish beer, just splitting it. I've never noticed a problem with my gravities. The important thing is to make sure that your final volumes are correct. Also, if you happen to lose a few points on your barleywine OG, you can always add a little sugar to make up for it, or just forget about it since no one will notice the difference anyways.
 
Thanks for clearing this up for me. I guess it is just kind of counter intuitive for me. It seems too simple to work, so I try to convince myself that it won't work.

Many thanks for responding. I know answering the same questions can get to be a PITA.
 
rexbanner said:
Yeah, you do need just around 15# of grain to get that. Double it? I'm not sure I understand. Normally, when you brew a very big beer your efficiency will suffer, but you are not brewing anything different than a 1.060-ish beer, just splitting it. I've never noticed a problem with my gravities. The important thing is to make sure that your final volumes are correct. Also, if you happen to lose a few points on your barleywine OG, you can always add a little sugar to make up for it, or just forget about it since no one will notice the difference anyways.

I understand u say ur brewing a 1.060ish beer but just splitting it. But is the overall grain bill based on say a normal 5 gal batch, or based on a 10 gallon batch if splitting it?

Also say if it's based on a 5 gal batch and a 15lb grain bill. I usually mash in at 1.3qts/lb, so that's 4.875 gal of strike water. After absorption I figure I can run off 2.95 gal. Do I just dilute with water or how do I get the 7 gal preboil vol I need?
 
I understand u say ur brewing a 1.060ish beer but just splitting it. But is the overall grain bill based on say a normal 5 gal batch, or based on a 10 gallon batch if splitting it?

Also say if it's based on a 5 gal batch and a 15lb grain bill. I usually mash in at 1.3qts/lb, so that's 4.875 gal of strike water. After absorption I figure I can run off 2.95 gal. Do I just dilute with water or how do I get the 7 gal preboil vol I need?

The grain bill will be based on the total gravity points. In this case you are essentially making 7.5 gallons of a 1.060ish beer. You would need to know your efficiency to calculate how much grain you need. You mash in with your normal amount of strike water. The first runnings, or at least the majority of it, becomes your "big" beer. When you sparge you need to calculate the amount of water needed for your "small" beer. If you want 5 gallons post boil you will need around 6 gallons....but it depends on your system.
 
Phunhog said:
The grain bill will be based on the total gravity points. In this case you are essentially making 7.5 gallons of a 1.060ish beer. You would need to know your efficiency to calculate how much grain you need. You mash in with your normal amount of strike water. The first runnings, or at least the majority of it, becomes your "big" beer. When you sparge you need to calculate the amount of water needed for your "small" beer. If you want 5 gallons post boil you will need around 6 gallons....but it depends on your system.

My eff is a constant 70%.

So I guess my big beer is only 2.95 gal preboil? That is unless I wish to dilute it even more with plain h20?

How would I plan on collecting 7 gal preboil for my big beer? I assume I have to increase my grain bill, but how do I calculate that?

I understand about just sparging for your small beer, and u dont have to account for grain absorption. Right?

Thanks
 
My eff is a constant 70%.

So I guess my big beer is only 2.95 gal preboil? That is unless I wish to dilute it even more with plain h20?

How would I plan on collecting 7 gal preboil for my big beer? I assume I have to increase my grain bill, but how do I calculate that?

I understand about just sparging for your small beer, and u dont have to account for grain absorption. Right?

Thanks

I really don't understand what you're asking. I don't mean to be rude, but it really isn't very complicated. Follow the chart. Calculate for evaporation and grain absorbtion like you would any other beer. You know your system.
 
My eff is a constant 70%.

So I guess my big beer is only 2.95 gal preboil? That is unless I wish to dilute it even more with plain h20?

How would I plan on collecting 7 gal preboil for my big beer? I assume I have to increase my grain bill, but how do I calculate that?

I understand about just sparging for your small beer, and u dont have to account for grain absorption. Right?

Thanks

I think the miscommunication is that the "big" beer does not mean bigger in volume..it means a higher SG. The "small" beer has a lower SG but is bigger in volume. Clear as mud??
Yes you might only end up with a PB amount of roughly 3 gallons for your first beer. And yes you shouldn't have to account for grain absorption when sparging for your second beer.
 
Do you normally batch sparge, Mpavlik22?

I ask because, from what you posted, it looks like you are planning to run off the first runnings with just the water you doughed in with. As far as I know, you mash in with enough water ti get your grist ratio right, then you add enough at the end of the mash to make your first runnings the volume you want them to be. Then run off untill dry, and add the sparge water.
 
Do you normally batch sparge, Mpavlik22?

I ask because, from what you posted, it looks like you are planning to run off the first runnings with just the water you doughed in with. As far as I know, you mash in with enough water ti get your grist ratio right, then you add enough at the end of the mash to make your first runnings the volume you want them to be. Then run off untill dry, and add the sparge water.

You know, this is the best description of the method I have yet to see. Thanks, Corncob.
 
corncob said:
Do you normally batch sparge, Mpavlik22?

I ask because, from what you posted, it looks like you are planning to run off the first runnings with just the water you doughed in with. As far as I know, you mash in with enough water ti get your grist ratio right, then you add enough at the end of the mash to make your first runnings the volume you want them to be. Then run off untill dry, and add the sparge water.

Is there any reasoning as to why you wouldn't want to mash in with the total boil volume of your big beer? I would think that this would give you the advantage of having a thinner mash, which would lead to a more fermentable wort. And since it is going to be a high gravity beer, you would want it to be highly fermentable to let the yeast do their business.
 
corncob said:
Do you normally batch sparge, Mpavlik22?

I ask because, from what you posted, it looks like you are planning to run off the first runnings with just the water you doughed in with. As far as I know, you mash in with enough water ti get your grist ratio right, then you add enough at the end of the mash to make your first runnings the volume you want them to be. Then run off untill dry, and add the sparge water.

Thank you! Crystal clear. Now I understand. That's what I was asking.
 
How do you predict the color of the beers that will be produced when using this method? Or do you simply throw your grains in and go for it?
 
How do you predict the color of the beers that will be produced when using this method? Or do you simply throw your grains in and go for it?

If I gather correctly, some keep an amount of carafa or other color giving malt on-hand to steep with after mashing. I think it is usually the small beer that suffers in this respect.
 
Is there any reasoning as to why you wouldn't want to mash in with the total boil volume of your big beer? I would think that this would give you the advantage of having a thinner mash, which would lead to a more fermentable wort. And since it is going to be a high gravity beer, you would want it to be highly fermentable to let the yeast do their business.

I don't know about the thin vs. thick mash argument. I am always brewing English ales, and I mash at 1 qt./lb because they do, or did, at least, based on what I read at Shut Up About Barclay Perkins.

How do you predict the color of the beers that will be produced when using this method? Or do you simply throw your grains in and go for it?

I don't know. I have read some about it on the net, but it looks like maybe there isn't a very good model and you just have to experiment. I usually do 12 gallons as 2 6-gallon gyles, blended to make a 1.040-ish and a 1.060-ish beer. The second gyle is way paler. If the first is copper, the second will be golden, for instance, and way more tannic. Also, the second gyle will always have about 30% of the total mash sugars.
 
Randy Mosher has a good recepie in Radical Brew. Basically the rule of thumb is first runnings are half as big in volume and double the OG. So you get a 2.5 gallon Barley Wine at 1.090 and a 5 gallon Bitter at 1.045.

The Brewing TV episode "Wookie and the Ewok" is a Partigyle episode.

Rock Chalk

Chris
 
I'm gonna have to check out radicals recipe. I did a parti gyle last week all willy nilly without a recipe or a plan. I enjoyed it thoroughly. I got 5.5g 1.070 "doppelbock" and 3g 1.030 small beer. I should have stopped draining my ton on the first beer when I hit 7.5 gallons, but like an idiot, kept lautering and had to do a 90 ninute boil. That left me with a smaller second beer. It's ok, I got 2 beers, and a basis for next time I try. I like the parti-gyle technique a lot.
 
To calculate color for a parti gyle:

Multiply Lovibond by pounds for each item on your grain bill and add to get a total coloring units (TCU).
I use the formula Color in SRM = 1.4922*(TCU*0.6)^0.6859

The 0.6 comes from the amount of extract in your first beer (I figure 60% for my system). By amount of extract, I mean amount of color extracted from the mash, not the volume of the mash.
I believe that the formula is based on Beer's Law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beer–Lambert_law) though I could be mistaken.
I believe that the 1.4922 and 0.6859 were determined empirically.

If you're doing 3 beers, your second beer's color is going to have 60% of the remaining 40% of color, so multiply by 0.24 (0.6*0.4 = 0.24).
Now you've used 84% of the color units (1-(0.6+0.24) = 0.84. The third beer gets 60% of the remaining color. So that's 60% of 16% = 0.096.

Summary:
First beer Color in SRM = 1.4922*(TCU*0.6)^0.6859
Second beer color = 1.4922*(TCU*0.24)^0.6859
Third beer color = 1.4922*(TCU*0.096)^0.6859

In any case, this formula works for me (ymmv).
 
Considering doing a partigyle of an IPA, a special bitter and a dark mild.

Mainly doing a grain bill of 20lb pale malt and 1lb medium crystal malt. I'll have to do some calculations but expecting to do a first batch of 7.5 gallons (+10%) at 1.060 and a second batch of 7.5 gallons (+10%) at 1.025. Doing the first 7.5 gallon boil to 55IBU with Challenger and late EKG additions. Doing the second 7.5 gallon boil to 20IBU with only Challenger as a bittering hop.

Blends as follows:
5 gallons of first boil for the IPA - 1.060, 55IBU, finished with Notty.
2.5 gallons first boil and 2.5 gallons second boil for the special bitter - 1.042, 37IBU, finished with S04
5 gallons of second boil for the dark mild + 1lb dark invert syrup - 1.032, 20IBU, finished with S04.
 
Back
Top