am I steeping or mashing?

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Walker

I use secondaries. :p
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I've never understood the difference between a simple steep and a single step infusion mash.

Let me describe how I use specialty grains, and some of you veterans can tell me what I'm actually doing; steeping or mashing.

  1. I bring about 1 to 2 quarts of water to 175°F in my kettle.
  2. I put my grains (1 to 2 lbs) in a bag and drop them into the kettle. (This results in a mixture in the upper 150's°F.)
  3. I let this sit (occasionally dunking the bag about) with the lid on it for 45 minutes, give or take 10 minutes.
  4. I remove the grain bag and put it into a strainer.
  5. I slowly pour 2 to 4 quarts of 175°F water over the grains and allow it to drain into the kettle.
  6. I discard the grains and crank up the heat to a boil, and then proceed with adding extract and hops in the standard fashion

-walker
 
and what would turn this into a single-step infusion mash? it seems to me that I am doing all the same basic things (hold at the proper temp for a while, use proper water to grain ratios, and rinse the sugars out with sparge water), I am just not using any special equipment.

-walker
 
In order for it to be considered mashing, you need to use some grain with active enzymes. These enzymes will convert some of the starches to sugars. IE 2 or 6 row barley. To do this, the general rule of thumb is 1 quart (1/4 gallon) per 1 lb of grain. So if you have 2 lbs of grain, you need to mash with apx 2 quarts (1/2 gallon) of water to get optimal efficiency. Generally, steeping grains add flavor and color to your beer. The mashing has already been done for you (in the form of your extract) so all you are doing by steeping grains is adding some character to your brew.
 
I never said what kind of grain was in the bag. Maybe it's a mixture of 2-row base, biscuit, and victory. This will contain enzymes. They should convert starch to sugar.

I also know the water to grain ratio. (Going by guidelines in the complete joy of homebrewing.)

so......... what do I need to change?

this is important for me, because I am going to brew my fat tire clone tonight and I have grains that need to be mashed.

NOTE: my original post contains wrong numbers. I start with soaking the grains in 1.5 QUARTS of water. (1 quart per per pound of grain.) I edited the original post to contain accurate numbers.

-walker
 
Well I'm not the one to explain mashing, but in reading any of the how-to's on mashing, you can see that sparging is not anything like rinsing. Pouring water through a bag that's already been drained is just going to let the bulk of the water channel down quickly into the pot. You're essentially getting first running and not much else. Beer Recipator estimates that you get 40% efficiency from steeping.

That's just the difference in rinsing/sparging, then there's temp maintenance, and other diffs. You're not mashing, you're steeping. Still you could go all grain that way if you really wanted too...you'd just have to use twice as much grain.
 
ok, so if I do my best to mimic the lauter tun with what I have on-hand (and so a slower sparge with grains 'floating' in water, reciruclating the first runnings) I have made the last step to mini-mashing?

The temp maintenance is fine. My water holds in the upper 150s during the initial soak when all the important bits are happening with the starch->sugar conversion.

other differences?

-walker
 
El Pistolero said:
Still you could go all grain that way if you really wanted too...you'd just have to use twice as much grain.

Maybe I'll just do that instead of worrying about it. Grains are pretty damn cheap, so if I can use $1.50 worth of grain and steep it instead of $0.75 worth of properly mashed grain, I can live with that.

If I feel creative one of these days, maybe I'll cobble together something 'proper'. For tonight, however, I think I'll just double the grains and steep them.

Thanks El.P.

-walker
 
It is my understanding that if you are soaking malt at the productive temperature for either alpha or beta amylase enzymes approx range 141-158 degrees or resting at temps that are ideal for protien or acid rests you are mashing. steeping , the way I learned it, is dropping your grains (in a grain bag) in the brewing liquor as you heat it up and removing them just before the liquor reaches the boiling point before adding extract.
 
*sigh*

and this is the kind of thing that has always left me confused about the difference. one source says my method is pretty close to a mash, one says it's just a steep.

I consider it a mash with a poor-man's sparge.

If I could just find out how much effeciency I am getting out my method, I would end my internal debate.

:)
 
I would say first that you are mashing. If you are using well modified malts
you are probably getting good conversion. the short sparge probably limits your efficiency. Remember that in an all Grain batch, the volume of the wort starts out much higher than final volume, in extract brewing it is opposite. for me sparging a 5 gallon batch sometimes uses 7-8 gallons and that strips alot more fermentables from the grain.
 
Understood. But since I use only 1 or 2 pounds of grain in my recipes (the rest is extract) I can get away with a much smaller scale operation when dealing with my grains.

As long as my method results in less than 4 gallons of wort from the grain processing, I can add my extract and boil in my stove-top kettle.

IS there anyway to check the efficiency of my conversion with a decent degree of accuracy?

Can I simply take a gravity reading of the wort that I get off my grains and figure it out that way?

-walker
 
When you steep grains in an extract/steeped grains recipe, you aren't trying to get any sugar out of the grains, you're trying to extract the color and flavor from them. Maybe you are getting some sugar out, but the amount is insignificant compared to the sugars coming from the extract.

When you do a mini-mash, you combine the steeped grains with a small amount of base grains. In this case you are hoping to extract some sugars from your base grain, and you decrease the amount of extract used accordingly.

In your case, you're using the grains for their color, flavor, and mouthfeel. You shouldn't count on any sugar extraction from the grains. You're steeping them. You may have gotten a little mashing going on in the process, but you shouldn't count on much of the sugar actually getting into your wort.
 
Like I said earlier, I never made any mention of what grains I am using here. If I've got enough enzymes in the mix I should get some sugars out of my grains.

I'm not going to worry about it. My beers are generally fine and dandy. This was an attempt to understand what makes steeping enzymatic grains different than full-on mashing.

I'm not sure if I came out with any clarity on the subject, but I think I'll just go back to brewing my beer and forget I ever asked. :D

-walker
 
Walker said:
Can I simply take a gravity reading of the wort that I get off my grains and figure it out that way?

Of course. You would have to figure out the potential contribution of your 'grain bill' per pound of grain per gallon of wort. Normalize that to the volume of water you're using and compare it to your actual SG reading.

Ultimately, I think it's purely academic in that I agree with El P that the sugar contribution to the wort from this method is minimal compared to the volume of extract.
 
argh.......

I guess I have been thinking to much about this.

if the only difference is whether or not I am getting SUGAR out of my grian, I could care less. True, El P, I am after flavors from my grains... my fermentables are coming from my extract.

As long as I get the flavor, I have acheived what I wanted. If I want more sugar, I'll add more extract.

For some reason, I had the impression that I wasn't getting all the FLAVOR out of my grains and needed to move up in to mashing to get it. This is because I see "this grain must be mashed" and I assume that means that if I want to use it AT ALL, I need to mash it. The implied end to that sentence is "... if you want to get sugar out of it."

Boy... i feel really REALLY stupid right now.

Can the admins delete this thread please? :eek:

-walker
 
my lord... i need to lie down. my world has just changed dramatically.

Don't make fun, but i feel that i have many new colors to paint with now.

I only recently stopped using kits. I never paid much attention to the grains in those kits, and (due to my gross misunderstanding of what was going on) I just assumed I was being sent "safe steeping grains".

Now, I have started making my own recipes, and I have been sticking to roasted and caramelized malts... ie; steeping grains. I just walk right past grains that "must be mashed (to get sugar from them)".

I have actually been sitting on the ingredients for my Fat Tire out of fear here, thinking I was going to make a crappy brew since I lack mashing equipment for the non roasted, not crystal grains.

wow....

holy sh*t....

-walker
 
excerpt from Palmer's online book

"Specialty malts like caramel and roasted malts do not need to be mashed. These malts have undergone a special kilning process in which the starches are converted to sugars by heat right inside the hull. As a result, these malts contain more complex sugars, some of which do not ferment, leaving a pleasant caramel-like sweetness"

Depending on which grains you use, you should get some fermentables.

BT
 
Keep in mind that if you don't mash "must be mashed" grains, you'll end up with more then just flavor, you'll end up with a decent amount of unconverted starches floating in there. It's the enzymes that convert that starch to sugars.

But yeah, this is the same mental "wtf is the difference!?" dilemma I went through a few weeks ago. If you already control your temps, and follow the water ratios, etc, as far as procedure goes, there is no bleeping difference.

On the "specialty grains are for flavor / color" only: Specialty grains do impart sugars to the wort, even with steeped. Please note that said sugars are mostly unfermentable, thus resulting in better mouthfeel. Here's Palmer's chart showing potential points extracted from grains when steeped. Of course, if you're only using a pound of grain, the amounts of sugars you get are going to be relatively small, but they're there.
 
Mashing is not that complicated.

Any malt that has been roasted to color should be consitered a non-enzmatic malt, any whole grain is non-enzmatic. Any starch adjunct, must be pre boiled before mashing.

Three simple rules. for mashing.

Infusion mast at 153 +/- degrees. Slightly higher for more unfermentables and slightly lower for more fermentables.

You must have an equal amount of base (non roasted) malt to the amount of roasted malt and adjuncts. (Carapils should be consitered roasted)

Use 1 qt per pound of total grains and adjuncts.

Follow these three guidelines and you are mashing.

Use too much water and you're not.

Don't add the equal amount of base malt and you're not.

Don't hold the temp between 149 and 159 and you're not.

Simple stuff.
 
This has possibly been said, but i think the problem with not mashing "must be mashed" grains is that they will then contribute a lot of starch to your beer, and this will affect clarity etc.

If that's not a concern, then go for it.
 
is this something a fining agent might strip out? (I don't care about clarity, but having the knowledge is good.)

-walker
 
Depending on how much "must be mashed" grain / adjuct used, you'll end up with Jill's Starch-blob-o-doom in your fermenter. I'd guess that a fining agent might be effective since the starches seem to be "heavy".
 
Good call, LU. I racked to the primary and pitched maybe a half hour ago, and I already have 4 inches of sludge at the bottom of it. I guess this is either one massive pile of yeast from my starter, or a bunch of starch. Either way, I'm going to have to lose a decent bit of this batch when I rack to the secondary.

-walker
 
Good news.

I checked the fermenter this morning before coming to work. That 4 inches of sludge has compressed to about 1.5 inches.

-walker
 
LupusUmbrus said:
Depending on how much "must be mashed" grain / adjuct used, you'll end up with Jill's Starch-blob-o-doom in your fermenter.

I was thinking about this and I don't believe this is true.

Since the only difference between what I do and a true "mash" is the way I rinse the grains, I HAVE converted starch to sugar, just like a true masher would have done (right temp, right water amount, right amount of time).... I am simply not getting all of the sugar out of the grain in the end. The starch shouldn't be there.

-walker
 
Walker said:
I was thinking about this and I don't believe this is true.

Since the only difference between what I do and a true "mash" is the way I rinse the grains, I HAVE converted starch to sugar, just like a true masher would have done (right temp, right water amount, right amount of time).... I am simply not getting all of the sugar out of the grain in the end. The starch shouldn't be there.

-walker
Quite right. Had the wires crossed there, as there is a distinction between "must be mashed" grains, and adjucts that need to be mashed with "must be mashed" grains. That being that the grains have the enzymes needed to convert their own starches while the adjucts (unmalted grain, oats, etc) do not.

I wonder what your sludge was... Maybe hop pellet stuff?
 
Ok.... in MY specific case, I had some issues, remember? I got the grains too hot, so I would have stopped the starch->sugar conversion when I got above 170 degrees. So, in my case the sludge was probably hops, yeast, and starch.

HOWEVER, in the general (not-f'ed-up) case, the starch would have been converted.

-walker
 
on a related note, that beer has developed a SECOND krauesen head. This one is gummy-looking, and I think it's because of the starch.

I probably will try to use gelatin to fine this one, just in case.

-walker
 
in my reading about step-mashing, it says that you can increase the temp of the mash to 170 to stop the starch->sugar conversion (that temp de-activates the enzymes that do the work.)

that's what lead me to make that comment.

-walker
 
Enzyme denaturing isn't instantaneous, so hopefully you got some conversion done in there.

Gumming looking krausen :confused:
 
Walker said:
in my reading about step-mashing, it says that you can increase the temp of the mash to 170 to stop the starch->sugar conversion (that temp de-activates the enzymes that do the work.)

that's what lead me to make that comment.

-walker

I'll have to read some more...I know in some processes higher temperatures will work for conversion, but perhaps not for the grains used for making beer.
 
i wasn't concerned with getting sugar out of the grains anyway, so it doesn't matter. I just wanted the grains' flavors (and I got them.... with no harsh tannins luckily.)

and, yes, gummy head. I have seen people talk about getting this due to using wheat in their beers (probably because of glutins and starch in the wheat). I am assuming that this gummy stuff is in my beer due to starch.

-walker
 
Quote from Papazian's 3rd edition, page 286, under the heading "LAUTERING":

"Now that you have successfully converted your grains to the better things in life, it is necessary to stop the conversion process and separate the sweet liquor from the particulate matter (the spent grain and husk material). You accomplish this by raising the temperature of the mash to 170 degrees F (77 C) in order to deactivate enzymes..."

this is why your sparge water is supposed to be 170 to 180 degrees in temperature.

-walker
 
But I've also got some links (on my laptop...I'll try to post from there after lunch) that indicate that amylase processes continue until anywhere from 83-89C before complete denaturation, although that is well beyond the optimum range for conversion. There was also some indication (I believe in byo of all places) that there is some hysteresis before the temperature actually denatures the enzymes. And then there are processes outside of alpha/beta, but I sold my biochem book for beer money after the exam :drunk:

I thought the major benefit of a higher temperature sparge was to "liquefy" the mash and rinse the sugars better.

In any case, I agree it's not pertinent in this case. :cool:
 
It sounds like you are doing a mini-mash to me. Temps seem good, hold time seems pretty good. The question is, what grain are you using?

If the right grain, then you are getting a significant addition to your fermentables as well as flavor.
 
we've already beat this horse dead, but what prompted the question was my recent fat tire clone, which used biscuit, victory, and munich.

-walker
 

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