Extract addition in last 15min of boil?

I emailed both Briess & Muntons regarding late boil addition of LME & DME.

This came back from "Andy" at Muntons.


If you want a good laugh looks at this. I think the advice should taken with a grain of salt.



If you guys are successfull with this, then I guess its not a big deal.

How is the clarity of the beers you make? (Minimal Chill Haze)

Do you hop differently?

BTW - Briess never replied. I guess they don't give a rats a$$ about customer questions.

FYI - I fired back a few more questions about the need for a hot-break, impact of hop efficiency and specifically asked why most recipes say to boil malt. I'll share the answer I get back as well.

Schlenkerla said:

4. Transfer the beer into bottles or a pressure barrel and add half a teaspoon of Light Spraymalt per pint to each bottle, or a maximum of 85 grams (3oz) per 5 UK gallon pressure barrel.....

Click to expand...

If you think bottling is a PITA..... try priming this way!

Just got this 2 minutes ago.


I don't know if this is a 180.... opinion-wise

It is not necessary to boil the extract. Even the kit directions don't tell you to boil the extract. The instructions are to add boiling water to the fermenter (which, if it's glass, is a bad idea). The reason for hot water is to make it easier to mix the liquid extract, not to sanitize.

His later comment isn't necessarily a change of heart. He already stated that boiling the extract may damage some of its flavor components. You do need to be aware that boiling a lower gravity wort will increase hop utilization, so be prepared to adjust your recipes when adding the extract late.

Yuri_Rage said:

It is not necessary to boil the extract. Even the kit directions don't tell you to boil the extract. The instructions are to add boiling water to the fermenter (which, if it's glass, is a bad idea). The reason for hot water is to make it easier to mix the liquid extract, not to sanitize.

His later comment isn't necessarily a change of heart. He already stated that boiling the extract may damage some of its flavor components. You do need to be aware that boiling a lower gravity wort will increase hop utilization, so be prepared to adjust your recipes when adding the extract late.

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I've done several No-Boil Hopped Extract kits. They are super clear w/ no chill haze. Many of my HB Club members are surprised on how clear they are, but I also bottle lager.

I thought the same thing with hops. How much less do you need if the wort gravity is 1.000? (Just water)

What is the hop utilization with just water? 50% 75% ???


Any ideas?

This is a great thread. Thanks for all the input and for bugging the malters for info. Priceless.

So I happened to have just read the section on "Trub and Hop Removal" in Papazian's "The Home Brewer's Companion" just before I read this thread. I'm currently brewing extract + steeped grains and I was not thinking that I had anything that might be dubbed trub in my wort after boiling a mix of DME and LME for 60 min. The only thing floating around in there is hops and irish moss. I had already come to the conclusion that, while he doesn't state it clearly, that section is really meant for all grainers or partial mashers who still have protiens that need to be removed.

It is puzzling that all the extract + grain steeping recipes call for boiling the extracts.

Since my buddies and I want to do a hefewiezen or wit next we're going to want to keep the color light. We might try the late addition.

I'm looking at ProMash and trying to figure out how to get it to calculate that. I tried setting the Boil Time (in the malt section to the right of the Pre-Boil button) to zero, but that had no effect on the Total IBU's, in the way that I has hoping/expected.

In fact, I'd have to say that it seems to produce an error! Try adding some *ME and some hops at 60 min. As you reduce the boil time the IBU's (both in the hops list and total) remain unchanged. Then jack up the hops. If the Boil Time is less than the Boil Time for the hops the row for the hops becomes "corrupted" with bad characters and all the data goes blank.

Can anyone else replicate this?

Does anyone have any suggestions for calculating hop contributions with a late *ME addition?

Moon

Here's a screen shot of the error. Seems like it's having problems when the hop boil time is longer than the malt boil time which will make caculating late malt additions impossible.

Moon

If you dont boil the extract you get cloudy beer, if you do you dont. I'm new but this has been true with all 5 of my brews so far so im sticking to it.

My only cloudy beer (that wasn't a wheat) i boiled all the DME. Now I always do late additions, and have had great success.

I also don't suggest LME, I always seem to end up with a sweeter brew because, I assume, it gets overcarmelized.

Munton's has no boil kits, they thought you were talking about one of those, the malt in them is prehopped. You must do a boil if not using prehopped extract to add bitterness to offset the otherwise intense malt flavor.

I use Brewsmith, you can do late additions of extract with it.

In order and what they said is in blue.

Dear Customer,

QUESTION:
People in my home brewing community are saying that you no longer have to boil LME or DME for 60 minutes. Only 10-15 minutes. The claim is its not necessary since its already done in manufacturing of the malt. The motivation is so they don't caramelize the malt any more than necessary which would make their beers darker than the desired color.
Is this true? - Thanks!!

ANSWER:
To be honest with you don't need to boil Muntons LME or DME at all as we pasturise our LME and the DME, by the nature of the process, will be pasturised.
By not boiling you will maintain the delicate malt flavour in our products and obtain a far better beer.


Please feel free to get back to us for any further assistance.

Sincerely,
Ask Andy
www.muntons.com

James,

Is it also correct to say that you don't need to have a hot break to precipitate and coagulate proteins?

If you don't boil LME and DME won't your hop efficiency be high (much more bitter) since a 60 min boil would occur with just water and hops?

A lot, if not most, of the recipes out there always say to boil your malt. Most of the time it's the first addition to the boil. I'm guessing its been done mainly for sanitation and blending ease. Has the whole school of thought of boiling malt changed recently?

Thanks!

John

Dear John,

I miss understood your original question. Much literature in the homebrew trade has stated that you should boil kits when brewing to sanitise it. All I am saying is that this is not necessary as we already do this as we pasteurise the malt before canning.

However if you are boiling in partial or full mash recipe already to help with hop addition then carry on. My original comments mainly apply to one step kit producers.

Regards

James

James - Thanks for the quick reply.

I think most of the online community are doing extract brews with some specialty grains. Mainly starting with unhopped extract, specialty, grains and whatever hops they like. They question the need to boil the DME/LME with the bittering hops. I think the beer would have much higher IBU's without the malt in the boil. Am I wrong?


Yes I think you are right but we don't do a lot of mashing brewing work to know for definite.

Many thanks

James


Both questions where answered confirming you can do late malt additions and the beer will have a higher hop rate as result.

I don't feel that I learned anything new, nor do I feel inspired by their expertise

So the big question is how much less you should hop?

cool, i'm gonna give that a shot this weekend, maybe add at 40 minutes into boil right before flavoring hops

brewing a heffe saturday with DME and LME. I will add the DME close to the beginning of the boil and the LME at the end. Guess we will see.

Just brewed a belgian wit and it came out really really dark. I added all extract at the beginning of the boil. (Cuz the directions told me too).......

Schlenkerla said:

So the big question is how much less you should hop?

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It seems to me like this could get pretty confusing - if you have a low gravity for most of the boil, and then a higher gravity for the last 10 - 15 minutes, it would be pretty difficult to calculate the hop utilization. Perhaps it would be easier if you just boiled with the lower gravity for the full 60 minutes and did some math or used some software to calculate the IBUs with the lower gravity. Then, add the bulk of the extract at flame-out and let it sit for 15 minutes to pasteurize (like HB99 mentioned above). After the 15 minutes, cool the wort and pitch yeast. It seems like this would work, unless there's going to be much utilization while it sits for 15 minutes after flame-out. I'm not sure how may IBUs would be added when the water's not boiling.
Anyways, if sitting for 15 minutes after flame-out isn't going to affect the IBU count, then it would be pretty straightforward to calculate the utilization with the lower gravity during the boil. That being said, I don't know how this would affect the flavor and aroma - I don't think you can calculate that. Are these two qualities affected by the boil gravity?
Of course, I've never done the late extract add, so this is all just guessing. I do want to try it for my next beer though. If anyone can verify what I'm thinking, or tell me that I'm completely wrong, I'd appreciate it!

The "Wealth of Information" sticky in general discussion led me to this page,
which lists Glenn Tinseth's data on hop utilization (HU) both as a function of boil time and of wort gravity. We are primarily concerned with HU as a function of varying gravity, since the 60 minute hop addition is the one that extracts the most bitterness. So I plugged in his values for HU in a 60 minute boil against increasing wort gravity. The resulting curve is not quite linear - slightly logarithmic, and it may offer a fair representation of AA extraction in different concentrations of wort. I'm not quite sure what the utilization "units" refer to, but its not that important, since they are all relative to each other.

This is what it looks like:


According to that, of you were shooting for a wort gravity of 1.050 (HU=0.24), the HU in water (SG = 1.000) would be around 0.36, which is a 50% increase.

So if you trust those numbers, I guess cutting your hop addition by a third might be the way to go, at least in the case of a 1.050 OG. Of course, this is all on paper. The actual gravity doesn't stay constant in a 60 minute boil - water evaporates and it increases. But it might be a good starting point. Only one way to find out, I guess!

This thread has been extremely informative. Thanks everyone!

We just did a hefe with the DME added at the beginning of 60 min boil and LME added at flameout. Lightest in color of any wort I've ever made. Of course I have mostly made beers that are intentionally dark in the past.

We'll see how it goes!

Hey, this might help with my search for a "light" beer to brew. trying to cater to older women that prefer a "light" beer.

gotta get a beer ready for a high school graduation party in june.

I am making alehole's SNPA clone

grain bill:

1lb. Crystal 60
5.5 Lbs Light DME

.5 Yakima Magnum 60
.5 Perle 30
1 Cascade 10
2 Cascade 0

If I add the DME at the end, are you telling me that this APA will turn into a super IIPA? I think it is about 56 IBU's

Kayos said:

If I add the DME at the end, are you telling me that this APA will turn into a super IIPA? I think it is about 56 IBU's

Click to expand...

With a full boil, adding the extract at the beginning, you're looking at about 34 IBUs.

If you add the extract late, it jumps to 52 IBUs.

IIRC, you'd need to increase the alcohol as well to call it a IIPA, but if you add the extract late, you could certainly call it an IPA.

Yuri_Rage said:

With a full boil, adding the extract at the beginning, you're looking at about 34 IBUs.

If you add the extract late, it jumps to 52 IBUs.

IIRC, you'd need to increase the alcohol as well to call it a IIPA, but if you add the extract late, you could certainly call it an IPA.

Click to expand...

I am using the calc. on tastybrew.com...it must be off then. I want the SNPA clone taste, not an IPA. This is going to be an easy-drinker, just an APA. Suggestions as to what to change the hop additions to? Hoping to add the DME at flameout.

Kayos said:

I am using the calc. on tastybrew.com...it must be off then. I want the SNPA clone taste, not an IPA. This is going to be an easy-drinker, just an APA. Suggestions as to what to change the hop additions to? Hoping to add the DME at flameout.

Click to expand...

I wasn't sure whether your calculation was for early or late extract addition, so I did my own. Hop utilization algorithms are always estimates, and there are a lot of different ways of calculating IBUs. So, it's not surprising that tastybrew.com differed just a bit from the BeerSmith calcs I used.

To keep your brew closer to the original recipe with a late extract addition, cut the first two additions down to .25 oz each. That yields about 26 IBUs.

I am planning on doing my first partial mash soon, Kolsch. I want to try to do a late boil malt addition. I will mash then boil 45 min then add DME. I have put the recipe below and broke the IBU additions up into the first 45 min (with only mash malt) and the last 15 min (with DME added). I think I did it right. Comments are greatly appreciated.

Grains:
2 lbs. Bohemian Pilsner Malt (Moravian) 1.8L
1 lb. munich malt (4-7 L)
8 oz. Flaked Wheat 2.0 L
Mash 90 min at 152F

Add water to 3 gallons.

At this point, with 60% efficiency, the SG should be 1.025.

With a SG of 1.025:
Hops:
0.5 oz. Hallertauer (at SG 1.025 for 45 min 7.7 IBU; at 1.085 for 15 min. 2.4 IBU)
0.75 oz. Saaz (at SG 1.025 for 45 minutes 10.1 IBU; at SG 1.085 for 15 min. 3.4 IBU )

With 15 minutes remaining:
4 lbs. Extra light dried malt extract (1-3 L)

SG now at 1.085

Boil for 15 min more.

Flame off:
1 oz. Saaz (aroma)

Dilute to 5.5 gallons.
OG 1.046
Adding it all up, 23.6 IBU

Yeast:
White Labs Kolsch

Expected FG 1.012 (75% attenuation)

The IBUs are a bit high for a Kolsch, but if it evaporates some this should bring this down (not too much I hope; BU/GU=0.51)

Thanks!! I don't want my Kolsch to come out as dark as molasses like my hefeweizen did.

When I started the late addition I used the chart on page 258 in Charlie P's 3rd edition of TCJOHB.

It states that if you boil 1 gal of water with 1 lb of malt that's 1.040. If you boil that for 1 hour with 1 oz of hops (an understood) you get 30% utilization (the max).

My math skills led me to the 30 min boil which equals 15%. So, if you add 2 oz of hops then you get the same 30% max bittering utilization.

All of my "light" beers have been very light in color, but I admit are cloudier than usual. I remedy this by using gelatin in the secondary 2 days prior to bottling/kegging.

I don't own that book yet (blasphemy!).

I used http://hbd.org/recipator/ to get the utilizations.

Thanks for the gelatin tip, will do.

Beerrific said:

I don't own that book yet (blasphemy!).

I used http://hbd.org/recipator/ to get the utilizations.

Thanks for the gelatin tip, will do.

Click to expand...

I use Recipator also, but not for utilizations, just because I like the format of the recipe and it converts to a Word.doc well.

As for the gelatin, I know a lot of usage instructions say to use it prior to/when bottling. Trust me on this one, that's NOT what you want to do.

However, be sure not to boil the water. After you add it to your secondary it will start to coagulate/gel and it'll look pretty U-G-L-Y in there.

Don't worry, some will fall out and some will stay in suspension, but all of it will remain in the carboy during the syphon. It washes out easily.

This thread is going aginst alot of books that I have read. Is this tread changing extract brewing as we know it?

it's revolutionary

kingjam said:

This thread is going aginst alot of books that I have read. Is this tread changing extract brewing as we know it?

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I wouldn't go that far, but it is an alternative way to brew.

Do you have to use the gelatin sold by homebrew/wine shops, or can you use nonflavored gelatin from the grocery store? How much are you using in a 5 gallon batch, Bill?

My beer I brewed Saturday was a short (35 minute) boil, with late DME addition, so I'm thinking it'll need the gelatin treatment to halfway clarify.

For my 1st post I must start off by saying how helpful I found many here to be. There is such passion for the hobby, and willingness to share knowledge in this community, that I am very glad to be a part of it.

I am really intrigued by this late extract edition, as my few rookie batches have seemed dark as many others claim here. I find the idea of shortening the boil & adding more hops to be an idea worth trying too. I was thinking for perhaps combining both ideas into a 15 minute pale ale.
Any idea/suggestions on if this is worth trying?

Here's what I came up with on recipator:

Brewer: ytsejam
Beer: 15 minute Pale Ale
Style: American Pale Ale
Type: Extract w/grain
Size: 5 gallons
Color: 10 HCU (~7 SRM)
Bitterness: 47 IBU
OG: 1.057 FG: 1.012
Alcohol: 5.8% v/v (4.6% w/w)

Grain: 8 oz. American crystal 40L, 8 oz. Cara-Pils
Steep: Steep at 155° for 30 minutes.

Boil: 15 minutes SG 1.095 3 gallons
6 lb. Munton's light DME
1 tsp Irish moss for 10 minutes.

Hops: 3 oz. Amarillo (8.9% AA, 15 min.)
1 oz. Yakima Magnum (15.7% AA, 15 min.)
1 oz. Amarillo (aroma)

Yeast: White labs California Ale WLP001 starter

I just picked midway point of style on FG.
This look ok?
Anyone tried anything similar?

My hops reasoning went: I'll take the clean bittering of the Magnum, but I want the flavor/aroma of the Amarillo.

Ideas/suggestions are surely welcome.

LouT said:

Do you have to use the gelatin sold by homebrew/wine shops, or can you use nonflavored gelatin from the grocery store? How much are you using in a 5 gallon batch, Bill?

My beer I brewed Saturday was a short (35 minute) boil, with late DME addition, so I'm thinking it'll need the gelatin treatment to halfway clarify.

Click to expand...

I use the gelatin sold in the HBS. Per Charlie's TCJOHB (3rd ed), page 98 says to use 1 TBS per 225 ml (that's almost 1 cup)...warm to dissolve. Do not boil the water.

I'd let it sit in the secondary to see how it clears on its own before adding anything. If it's still cloudy a couple of days prior to bottling/kegging then add the gelatin.

ytsejam said:

For my 1st post I must start off by saying how helpful I found many here to be. There is such passion for the hobby, and willingness to share knowledge in this community, that I am very glad to be a part of it.

I am really intrigued by this late extract edition, as my few rookie batches have seemed dark as many others claim here. I find the idea of shortening the boil & adding more hops to be an idea worth trying too. I was thinking for perhaps combining both ideas into a 15 minute pale ale.
Any idea/suggestions on if this is worth trying?

Here's what I came up with on recipator:

Brewer: ytsejam
Beer: 15 minute Pale Ale
Style: American Pale Ale
Type: Extract w/grain
Size: 5 gallons
Color: 10 HCU (~7 SRM)
Bitterness: 47 IBU
OG: 1.057 FG: 1.012
Alcohol: 5.8% v/v (4.6% w/w)

Grain: 8 oz. American crystal 40L, 8 oz. Cara-Pils
Steep: Steep at 155° for 30 minutes.

Boil: 15 minutes SG 1.095 3 gallons
6 lb. Munton's light DME
1 tsp Irish moss for 10 minutes.

Hops: 3 oz. Amarillo (8.9% AA, 15 min.)
1 oz. Yakima Magnum (15.7% AA, 15 min.)
1 oz. Amarillo (aroma)

Yeast: White labs California Ale WLP001 starter

I just picked midway point of style on FG.
This look ok?
Anyone tried anything similar?

My hops reasoning went: I'll take the clean bittering of the Magnum, but I want the flavor/aroma of the Amarillo.

Ideas/suggestions are surely welcome.

Click to expand...

I didn't do the math for the 15 min boil versus the larger amount of hops, but if you did a 1 hour boil you only need to use 1 lb of malt. For a 15 min boil you would have to add 3 lbs of malt in the boil w/3 gals of water. Is that your intent?

I've never used the hops you are referring to so I can't say one way or the other.

Hmmm good I found this thread.

I'm going start my second batch of beer brewing this weekend. My first bath was a pre-hopped LME and this time I'm going to be making a honey ale with DME.

My stove is a crappy POS so its good that I can stick the DME in at the end. What the absolute minimum amount of water I should boil with the hops to get all of the flavor out before dumping it with the rest of the water in the bucket. Would a gallon be enough? Two? Even that is pushing it with my crappy stove

Oh and I assume I should boil the honey as well?

Bosh said:

Hmmm good I found this thread.

I'm going start my second batch of beer brewing this weekend. My first bath was a pre-hopped LME and this time I'm going to be making a honey ale with DME.

My stove is a crappy POS so its good that I can stick the DME in at the end. What the absolute minimum amount of water I should boil with the hops to get all of the flavor out before dumping it with the rest of the water in the bucket. Would a gallon be enough? Two? Even that is pushing it with my crappy stove

Oh and I assume I should boil the honey as well?

Click to expand...

I use 1.5 gal of water for my boils. Add 1 lb of malt for the entire boil and the bittering hops. Add hops and other ingredients per the recipe.

You can add the remaining malt and honey at the end and let sit for 15-20 mins to pasteurize the honey if you want the honey flavor to come through.

I also use PUR filtered tap water which I have in 1 gal milk jugs then place them in the freezer for 4-5 hours prior to brewing to get cold/icy. I brewed last night and after topping off to 5.25 gals in the primary the temp was 64F.

homebrewer_99 said:

I use 1.5 gal of water for my boils. Add 1 lb of malt for the entire boil and the bittering hops. Add hops and other ingredients per the recipe.

You can add the remaining malt and honey at the end and let sit for 15-20 mins to pasteurize the honey if you want the honey flavor to come through.

I also use PUR filtered tap water which I have in 1 gal milk jugs then place them in the freezer for 4-5 hours prior to brewing to get cold/icy. I brewed last night and after topping off to 5.25 gals in the primary the temp was 64F.

Click to expand...

Great! Will do just that...

Bosh said:

Great! Will do just that...

Click to expand...

I have a nylon net with elastic along the edge that goes over my primary bucket. Be sure to use about 6 cloths pins to hold it on or it will fall in when you pour your wort through it to catch/seperate the hops.

After reading this thread for the 2nd time today I'm still left wondering if you get better clarity from a full boil or from a late addition. There seems to be quite a few conflicting opinions.



I'm going to brew an extract brew this weekend. My first IPA was somewhat cloudy but I didn't use anything for clearing.

My 2nd brew was a fruit beer and I used Irish Moss but it's still VERY VERY cloudy, was bottled that way.

I'd like the 3rd batch to be clear if I can do it.

Szerek said:

After reading this thread for the 2nd time today I'm still left wondering if you get better clarity from a full boil or from a late addition. There seems to be quite a few conflicting opinions...I'm going to brew an extract brew this weekend. My first IPA was somewhat cloudy but I didn't use anything for clearing.

My 2nd brew was a fruit beer and I used Irish Moss but it's still VERY VERY cloudy, was bottled that way.

I'd like the 3rd batch to be clear if I can do it.

Click to expand...

IMO, it's your fruit that's causing the cloudiness for that brew. Give it more time and it'll fall out I'm sure.

The first and second pics are late addition/all DME brews. The 3rd is a Hefe Weizen BEFORE I pour in the yeast. Clear enough?

homebrewer_99 said:

IMO, it's your fruit that's causing the cloudiness for that brew. Give it more time and it'll fall out I'm sure.

The first and second pics are late addition/all DME brews. The 3rd is a Hefe Weizen BEFORE I pour in the yeast. Clear enough?

Click to expand...

Those look awesome!

What is the second?

EDIT: I see you already answer "light ale experiment."

Are these using gelatin?

Beerrific said:

Those look awesome! What is the second?

Click to expand...

That one I called a Light Ale Experiment.

I used 5 lbs Extra Light DME, Northern Brewer whole hops, Safale-56 yeast, and gelatin several days prior to bottling. It was a 45 min boil for hop additions and a 15 min steeping period after adding the last 4 lbs of DME.

I am planning to repeat the recipe, but use another hop. I don't think I like NB.

It has a slight oxidation problem (tastes a little like wet cardboard), but not un-drinkable. It still tastes better than BMC in my book.

I think it happened when I added cold water to the brewing pot to cool it before pouring it into the primary. I never did that before and don't know what made me do it that time either, but...it hasn't happened again since I haven't repeated that step.

I purposely overprimed (4 oz of corn sugar to 4 gals of brew) to make it more carbonated. I'm looking to make a good light summer brew. I think I'm almost there. Next time should do it...just have to wait for more DME to arrive...

homebrewer_99, thanks for carrying the torch on this subject. not to mention the input of others. Seems to be a lot of interest in this. I'm still learning lots from posters with questions and those who've gone before.

many thanks!