Wheat beer yeast for ciders? Banana and clove esters?

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TimpanogosSlim

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I've searched a bit but there seems to be no single really handy search query to find out if many people have done this.

What about an esterous wheat beer yeast in cider?

I am planning, when i get a round tuit, to brew a 1 gallon batch of an experiment I'm calling "buckwit". I've got an 11g packet of wb-06 for the job, which is more than twice as much as a 1 gallon batch needs, even pitched directly into the wort.

A cider with banana and clove going on could be good! And a gallon of apple juice is not expensive.

My house seems to be maintaining a wretched 75f this summer, and humid, which is a travesty since i live in a desert. I can wrangle a cooler fermentation chamber, but i also have a basement closet that is in the low 70's.
 
Used WB-06 in a cider before, no real noticeable esters came from it. The main difference I noticed was that, compared to identical batches of ale and lager yeasts, it maintained more CO2 in solution and had a slightly longer finish.

Contrary to popular belief yeast esters don't actually come from the yeast itself. But rather the the wort/must being used. The yeast highlights and brings out the already present flavors. The flavor profile you are reading about is likely referring talking about beer wort, which can have banana and clove flavors depending on the brew. Apple juice however, will probably not have any clove or banana notes to it unless you have done some serious apple research and testing and have strict control over the base blend. Another possibility would be to add small amounts of those ingredients to the primary and then have the yeast highlight them. But, if you're going to do that I would just suggest adding them to the secondary to get the same results with more control.

So, yes, it will work fine. Just not in the way you think.
 
I have used a White Labs liquid hefeweizen yeast and was asked by a couple friends if I had added banana to my cider and said it had great taste. Also, recently used a liquid White Labs Belgian yeast and definitely notice an esthery profile. These were all made with storebought juice and nothing more than apple juice and yeast. Not sure about the conflicting info. Alot will say different yeasts have little to no difference with cider. I will disagree. For what it's worth, these two examples I gave were both liquid yeasts.
 
I meant to add that I don't let my cider ferment to ~1.000 either. I like it sweeter and I don't backsweeten unless I feel the need. I rack and cold crash around 1.02.
 
LeBreton said:
Used WB-06 in a cider before, no real noticeable esters came from it. The main difference I noticed was that, compared to identical batches of ale and lager yeasts, it maintained more CO2 in solution and had a slightly longer finish.

Contrary to popular belief yeast esters don't actually come from the yeast itself. But rather the the wort/must being used. The yeast highlights and brings out the already present flavors. The flavor profile you are reading about is likely referring talking about beer wort, which can have banana and clove flavors depending on the brew. Apple juice however, will probably not have any clove or banana notes to it unless you have done some serious apple research and testing and have strict control over the base blend. Another possibility would be to add small amounts of those ingredients to the primary and then have the yeast highlight them. But, if you're going to do that I would just suggest adding them to the secondary to get the same results with more control.

So, yes, it will work fine. Just not in the way you think.
Click to expand...

Curious. I was not under the impression that there is any amyl acetate in malt. I do know that it's very easy to make for both plants and humans, and my chemist friend warns me that there are other naturally occurring esters that smell and taste like amyl acetate except many times stronger.

I'm not sure what causes clove-like odor or flavor. At least I'm assuming it's not eugenol that people are getting in witbier.
 
JtotheA said:
I meant to add that I don't let my cider ferment to ~1.000 either. I like it sweeter and I don't backsweeten unless I feel the need. I rack and cold crash around 1.02.
Click to expand...

My dry yeast batch stopped at 1.004 if I recall correctly. Those combined with different juice base clearly accounted for the difference in sensory perceptions. Darn, now I'll just have to brew more batches to narrow it down :D
 
LeBreton said:
My dry yeast batch stopped at 1.004 if I recall correctly. Those combined with different juice base clearly accounted for the difference in sensory perceptions. Darn, now I'll just have to brew more batches to narrow it down :D
Click to expand...

I usually brew with dry Notty and dry S-04. In my area, my LHBS's stock all sorts of the White Labs vials so I've done some experimenting with different varieties of them. I wonder if there is a difference in the end result between using dry yeast versus liquid in a vial. It seems like there shouldn't be but I wonder. I hate it when I have to brew more batches! ;)
 
TimpanogosSlim said:
Curious. I was not under the impression that there is any amyl acetate in malt. I do know that it's very easy to make for both plants and humans, and my chemist friend warns me that there are other naturally occurring esters that smell and taste like amyl acetate except many times stronger.

I'm not sure what causes clove-like odor or flavor. At least I'm assuming it's not eugenol that people are getting in witbier.
Click to expand...

Perhaps you could encourage the creation of amyl acetate by fermenting at warmer temps than I did (mid 60s) which tends to increase the volatile acidity of cider. Additionally, I've found that not using nutrients in cider can cause certain tropical notes to be formed. I'll definitely be interested in your results!
 
LeBreton said:
Perhaps you could encourage the creation of amyl acetate by fermenting at warmer temps than I did (mid 60s) which tends to increase the volatile acidity of cider. Additionally, I've found that not using nutrients in cider can cause certain tropical notes to be formed. I'll definitely be interested in your results!
Click to expand...

Interesting wrt nutrients. I've seen some people (e.g. the skeeterpee guy) imply that nutrient starvation can lead to sulfur hydroxide production (rotten egg smell) but the "rhino farts" discussion in the big apfelwein thread leads one to believe that it doesn't happen with all strains of yeast. And edwort is of the opinion the apple juice contains ample nutrients.

Dunno when I'll get around to it. I also need to do something with the ginger beer plant sachet i recently received, and I'm planning a belgian wit this weekend, assuming i finish my fermentation chamber on friday.

On the other hand, how hard can it be to rehydrate a third of a packet of wb-06 in the bottom of a 1 gallon jug, dump 3L of TreeTop on top of it, install an airlock, and shove it into a 75f closet? maybe I'll start it tonight.
 
TimpanogosSlim said:
Interesting wrt nutrients. I've seen some people (e.g. the skeeterpee guy) imply that nutrient starvation can lead to sulfur hydroxide production (rotten egg smell) but the "rhino farts" discussion in the big apfelwein thread leads one to believe that it doesn't happen with all strains of yeast. And edwort is of the opinion the apple juice contains ample nutrients.
Click to expand...

Definitely a complected issue. Less nutrients can lead to H2S production, H2S can be limited by more nutrients, different fermentation temp, SO2 addition, copper additions, mechanical means, etc, etc, etc. So it's all in the balance. Some styles of cider, French cuvee for example, are the direct result of low-nutrient fermentation being selectively chosen over more modern techniques.

Another thing to remember is not all apple juice is created equal. There is a direct link between the amount and use of fertilizer in the orchard to the amount of nutrient needed (if any) with nitrogen seeming to be the major player. It's even let to rather a divisive issue among orchardists on the use of grass in the orchard and can also be affected by the age of the orchard itself, not to mention terroir, water, and sunlight.

If you really want to geek out on it keep close tabs on the YAN (Yeast available Nitrogen) levels in the juice during fermentation.

Still boils down to juice + yeast though.:drunk:
 
yeah, I've heard that about copper in beer brewing, too. I don't notice any difference from before or after i started using a copper chiller, though. *shrug*. maybe i have plenty of copper in my water as it is.

I have both copper and galvanized plumbing - with proper dielectric junction between 'em - but the copper pipes could still be throwing ions like crazy for all I know. I am also under the impression that my water comes from a well pumping station across the street, and it would be reasonable to presume that there is some copper in the local geology, since the world's largest open pit copper mine is a mere 45 miles away.
 
I've used wyeast 3333 german wheat yeast in a spiced cider before. It had a lot of clove flavors, a bit of banana. not a bad choice for something different.
 
This is an old thread but wondering if adding it to cider it has a crazy fermentation like with a hefe?
 
CiderRules said:
Depending on the temp, 5 gallons has fit in a 6.5 gal bucket fine. Maybe a little bit of blow off when I was doing it at ambient (~70 deg).
Click to expand...

Doing 3 in a 5 now, but that's with ale yeast... my next washed/left over yeast is from a hefe I did. Next batch I was planning on using that. Might just do it in the carboy with the 1" just in case. Hate it when the lid blows off, makes a good mess.
 
theck said:
Doing 3 in a 5 now, but that's with ale yeast... my next washed/left over yeast is from a hefe I did. Next batch I was planning on using that. Might just do it in the carboy with the 1" just in case. Hate it when the lid blows off, makes a good mess.
Click to expand...

Overpitching with a hefe yeast will cause almost complete loss of banana esters.
 

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