Converting a Carboy to a Keg

My origioinal thread was removed but I was hoping to continue the dialog.
Mod edit: It was removed because you do not have a vendors account and you were promoting your product.

So I did not explain well why I created the carboy keg adapter in the first place – some of you will agree with my story and many of you won’t (and probably be offended) but that’s all part of the process.

To begin, the soda manufacturers are very capable of changing the seals in a Cornelius container, these containers were designed this way on purpose. They discarded these containers for another reason such as health, safety, or reliability. For example, if the container is dented, the passivation process on the stainless has now been compromised. For whatever reason, the home brewers, including myself once, think they have found a treasure at the scrap yards and recycle centers and only need to change out the replaceable parts to make them new again but in reality, no one knows the real reason the Cornelius container was discarded (and never will) BUT we home brewers have no problem placing our brew, to be consumed, in that same scrapped container – go figure. The argument “I can buy these for $20” doesn’t fly with me because you are buying “contaminated stainless scrap” which is the exact category. Obviously, if you purchase these containers new and take care of them, it’s a great solution.

Yes, I’m on the conservative side especially when it comes to the health and safety to anyone I share my brew with and that is exactly why I came up with another way to keg… The Carboy Keg adapter is NOT recycled it is NEW. Manufactured from high quality materials where there are no health concerns. Yes this solution leverages from a plastic bottle with inherent disadvantages but it is NEW, made from food grade materials (water is a food) and can be easily replaced. Compare the solutions new to new, not new to scrap.

I don't think the carboys are designed to be under pressure.

You're thread got deleted because you don't have a vendor membership and you're hocking your wares.

You are basically claiming that 1000+ homebrewers are jeopardizing their health because they're reusing a stainless container. Do you have any evidence to support your theory that stainless can somehow harbor pathogens even after sanitizing it? Using health concerns as an (false) arguement to create value for your product is just a lame appeal to consequences. To your point, as soon as your device is used once, it's also now not new and therefore must be contaminated recycled scrap also.

The soda industry abandoned corny kegs because a cheaper solution came along. It's not that sanitizing was impossible, it was just more trouble and cost than the newer solution. Each unit cost them over $100, and with raw goods prices going up, it was getting worse. The board of health had to do spot checks to make sure the distributor's process was sound. Now they just move boxes of syrup. Less labor and equipment for them, no seals to deal with, etc. It became easier to pump syrup from the bags rather than pressurize each vessel. I received this information from at least three distributors and they all said the same things whether they sold me cornies or not.

What I'd like to see is your version of a completed keg, ready to take gas and dispense with a list of additional parts needed, where to get them, and a total cost. I'll then show you a cleaned, sanitized corny keg that I've been using over and over for a year on countless batches that have not gotten anyone sick; that I paid $5 (plus $2 for new Orings); that does the job better.

You can't just make these unsubstantiated claims and not get called on them. That is part of the process.

I hear your argument and am not taking sides, I just feel I would never use this but can see a niche where it may be used. Personally, if I were moving 5 gallons or more of beer anywhere, I would use a 5 gallon sanke. This is how my setup operates though, and it is just simpler for me to use all the same taps and fittings and tubing, etc. I am just stating from my view here, so please don't take offense. Most people, if they were just starting out kegging, would have a glass/BB/plastic carboy that they use for primary/secondary. You are selling them another plastic bottle (be-it new) instead of them going out and buying a used keg or new if they are that worried about what was in it before. You are also selling them one piece of equipment that has to stay on top of said bottle the entire use of that bottle (as a serving keg/pressured fermentation vessel, etc), which prompts me to a question. What happens when they want to go bigger? They have to buy your system again with the bottle and everything, or without it doesn't matter. At this point, some would already have saved money by not going your route and buying the keg(sanke or corny), since they can simply un-tap/un-connect it and it is a storable pressurized vessel. They can use one/one set of the tap/connectors on now another keg if they grew and not have to buy anything except the keg. Your way would have them with 10 gallons of "storage" with a high price in my opinion. If the moved all the way up to 15 gallons then you can really see how your system would weight compared to what is already in place for them to buy. This being said I also don't want you to get disappointed. Sometimes/most of the time, when a person has a new idea it gets trampled by most, accepted by a few, and built on and made better/workable from the rest. I am sure you can find a few people this would benefit, I am just not one. I would damn sure love to help make them though, metal projects are fun on the CNC lathe and mill. I used to work in a machine shop and miss the fun in manufacturing something from nothing.

Bobby_M said:

You can just make these unsubstantiated claims and not get called on them. That is part of the process.

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LOL, you mean can't don't you, lol.

I use 4-5 gallon sankes and 1-15.5 gallon sanke, plus one 15.5 sanke as a fermenter. That is like over $200 in kegs (but over 35 gallons in storage, not counting the fermenter) with three taps, which is unnecessary because I only use two of them for $35 each. My storage/fermentation/everything like you are describing would be under $300 and I am sure to easily size up without any cost other than the vessel, and don't have to worry about sunlight/gas exchange through the plastic/or buying anything else to close up and store under pressure.

Yup, I meant "can't". I'm a party pooper and all but once you outfit the whole system, you COULD buy cornies brand new for a few bucks more. You've got to really hone the snake oil sales pitch to sell this thing and I suppose that's where the "health risk" angle came from. If a product is really the golden solution, it sells itself.

Thanks for the feedback - I am really wanting the discussion both pos and neg because you people are the "experts" in the field and with my origional posting, I was not trying to unfairly promote my wares (notice no link- in this one at least), I was only wanting to discuss another way of doing something.

As far as the "claims" I made- I never said people would get sick by using the Corney's - my only point was they were discarded for an unknown reason. I personally don't like that idea of revamping a discarded product but then possibly I am more paranoid than most.

It looks nice.



There is no problem discussing design etc. as long as you don't try to promote or sell them. Get a vendors account and you can.

Pros:
A brand new thing, not reused stainless.
If cornies weren't available anymore, it would be a logical next step.
Cons:
Expensive for one "keg".
Oxygen permiable with #7 bottles, better bottles would be better but that's another $25.
Clear bottles = sunlight skunking (already mentioned above).
Incomplete so far, no gas/beverage connections or diptube (have you figured this part out yet or is it up the end user?)
Water bottles are not pressure rated (you've tested one and it held. I'd recommend testing 10 of each type to failure and take half of the average failure pressure).
No overpressure safety valve. This is a far more scary condition than syrupy stainless in worst case scenario.
Assuming it's aluminum, it won't stand up to the acidity. I've left beer in an aluminum bottle overnight and it started corroding. Maybe your finish is protective?
Plastic bottles are not as easy to sanitize as stainless.
You can't fit many in a fridge/chest freezer. I fit 5 cornies in mine, only 2 five gallon better bottles.

Let's talk a little more about the unknown nature of corny kegs. The last time they were used, it was for food grade purposes especially if you get them right from a soda distributor. What do you suppose happens between then and now? It's a huge reach in logic to suggest it "might" be tainted. Even if there was something really disgusting in there, stainless isn't exactly porous. Micro breweries buy well-used dairy equipment for kettles and fermenters. How do they get away with it? Is the entire homebrew community getting scammed?

I don't know how much money you've spent in development but I'd recommend you cut your losses. I don't know why I'm the single devil's advocate here because I guarentee you're not going to convince the vast majority of keggers to take their questionable cornies to the scrap yard. If you really want to develope this thing, maybe put a spunding valve on there for pressurized fermentation.

I will agree completely with Bobby_M's statement about convincing any of us here. Also, about the metal part-I wouldn't buy anything metal for my brewery unless it was stainless. I still think it is cool though and just couldn't bring myself to a devil's advocate, lol.

Again, thanks for the feedback and Bobby not sure why you are taking the concept so personally. I realize this is "not the way it has always been done" but that does not mean there can't be another alternative - probally this still needs work and I need to conside another container method. For now, and for the benifit of others who do like other concepts/technology (yes even in the home brewing world) a response to Bobby's questions.

Expensive - yes - just getting started, the cost is likely to drop
Oxygen permible- yes but I don't find this to be an issue as long as CO2 is applied while aging kegged. Probally a PET is the preferred container I should consider
Clear - got me there
Pressure - I've tested several because I wanted to verify on many different brands with no issues. I currently have my brew using this adapter.
Safety valve - any of the 4 ports allow this feature. I will sell an 'approved' relief valve with the kit eventually.
Aluminum - it is hard anodized for corrosion resistance
Incomplete -drop tube, etc. Also plan to sell with an expanded kit. Standard fittings, hose, etc. can be used and easily obtained

Even if the Keg is out for multiple reasons, this can still be used during the fermentation and closed system transfer. It's actually quite a useful device if given the chance.

Sorry if my words come across a little harsh. I'm not taking it personally, just being a vocal critic. You posted here (the first post was an advertisement) and asked for a dialog about it and I assume you want honest opinions. I can easily keep my mouth shut but I like speaking my mind about brewing equipment because that's what we do here. I'm just saying that if you're touting your product as a reasonable replacement for a corny keg, it ought to do the job at least as well, if not better for less money. It happens to be more expensive and inferior to the thing it's intended to replace. I understand that as its innovator, it's really hard to hear criticisms. I wish you luck in the development of it and hope you can find a market.

rcinnovations said:

Oxygen permible- yes but I don't find this to be an issue as long as CO2 is applied while aging kegged.

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Keeping the keg pressurized will not stop oxygen from diffusing in.

http://home.chattanooga.net/~cdp/3lkeg/3lkeg.htm

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-0]Don't plan on storing brew in the mini-kegs for much longer than a month or two assuming you keep them cold. YMMV with delicate brews and warmer temps. Long term storage is said to cause the brew to become oxidized since the PET plastic the bottles are made of is not a good O2 barrier. Yes, the CO2 pressure in the bottle after filling is much greater than atomspheric pressure, but, as counter-intutive as it seems, oxygen will still pass through the plastic.[/SIZE][/FONT]

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Furthermore, it sounds like you're really grabbing at straws when you say that cornelius kegs were "discarded for an unknown reason", when the soda industry's shift to a cheaper single-use bag-in-box system is quite clear. Despite trying to make cornelius kegs seem unsafe, it seems that the only direct claim you have made is the one regarding dents compromising the passivation. Do you have any evidence that suggests that minor cosmetic dents compromise the passivation on stainless steel to the point that it is not safe for food use? Commercial beer kegs see a lot of abuse, and yet they stay in service for a long time. Don't you think that if there's a real health hazard due to minor dents in stainless that something would be done about it?

Of course you're entirely free to be paranoid about what you wish, but it's quite another thing to advertise a product based upon your own fears. If you plan to advertise your system for what it is and let the consumer decide, great, best of luck. But I sure hope you're not going to make the sorts of vague, unsubstantiated claims about SS kegs in your advertisements as you have been saying here.

Exactly why I was being slightly more critical than I normally would be.

I can see that.

LOL good idea, im going to scrap all my cornie kegs for glass carboys that have no handle and are a PIA to move around, and take up alot more space!! not to mention that i have to worry about dropping it and possibly cutting my foot in half! no thanks bud, keep your carboy keg system, im going to stay with my contaiminated SS kegs. i guess sainitizer and cleaner is a market gimick eh..?

*the only reason they would take a keg out of service for a dent is due to it not holding its orginal volume of liquid not due to contamination issues...

Ok got it. I wasn't suggesting a superiorior method, just an alternative. I never meant to imply Corney's were unsafe - people read alot into a simple posting. Thanks for the respone, honestly. Maybe I will try again someday.

rcinnovations said:

I never meant to imply Corney's were unsafe - people read alot into a simple posting.

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And what exactly were you trying to imply when you said; "you are buying 'contaminated stainless scrap' "

It's not the product that people take personally, it's your tact.

rcinnovations said:

I was not trying to unfairly promote my wares (notice no link- in this one at least), I was only wanting to discuss another way of doing something.

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Then why did you make the same post verbatim to multiple boards. Both of which you joined just today and haven't posted anything to except your spiel and a link. And at least one of which you were banned from, and re-posted to anyway. You don't care about your audience or making a contribution, only exposure for your product. It's the social equivalent of spamming.

Furthermore, you try to sell your wares based of FUD and negative marketing, not the merits of your product. You attempt to create FUD by using technical terms that are literally correct, but contextually inaccurate. These are the tactics of a dishonest salesman, an inferior product, or both.

If you wish to market your product through online forums, your whole approach has to change. Seek first to give, and last to gain. Find relevant forums, join them, participate and enrich the forum with your knowledge. All without seeking personal gain. As (much) time passes, you will see problems arise for which you have a solution. At that time, it is appropriate to offer that "XYZ may be useful" or perhaps "have you tried ABC". If they inquire for more info, respond simply and politely.

As you have found, if you are only after cheap advertising, you will not be well received. I run a very successful internet business. Have you ever seen me mention it here? No, it's not relevant to the board. I do, however, participate in other boards that are relevant. There, I advise, consult, try to help, and every so often I take the opportunity to hand out a business card.

rcinnovations said:

Maybe I will try again someday.

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I assume this means you won't be a visiting HBT again soon. That's a shame, because although it's not for me, I do think your product has a market. It's your marketing that is useless as **** on a bull.

rcinnovations said:

For example, if the container is dented, the passivation process on the stainless has now been compromised.

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For the record, passivation isn't a one-shot process. If stainless is left to its own devices in the presence of oxygen, it will passivate on its own.

Here's John Palmer's instructions relating to it.

Also, for example, if you scrub a plastic container then you can scratch it, and make it nearly impossible to clean.

Additionally, this issue of the amount of pressure in the serving vessel shouldn't be glossed over. I have yet to hear of a Cornelius keg exploding. Yet I've heard of numerous glass carboys exploding from relatively low pressures. So either I can risk ruining a beer and spending hours cleaning up a pile of glass and beer or I can use a 125psi rated Cornelius keg at 20% of its rated capacity.

It seems like a case of fixing something that isn't broken.

In the last couple of weeks we've had 2 people that obvioulsy have the skills to envision a product and work with a manufaturer to bring a high quality good to the marketplace.
In both cases, the product seeks to replace a current method or traditional piece of equipment. The overwhelming reation has been that there is no compelling reason to switch based on the balance of features or on cost.

In short, they seem to solve problems that we have already solved (and the current solution is at a lower cost).

Here's an idea that we can all get behind and it's no trade secret:
A plate chiller that can be opened up for cleaning, preferably in the sub $100 range.

That's a real problem that is looking for product.

Good one but I'm afraid it's not going to happen. It will have to rely on seals between each plate so we're at least talking about 10 large silicone seals. The machining alone would probably run $40 per unit.

olllllo said:

In the last couple of weeks we've had 2 people that obvioulsy have the skills to envision a product and work with a manufaturer to bring a high quality good to the marketplace.
In both cases, the product seeks to replace a current method or traditional piece of equipment. The overwhelming reation has been that there is no compelling reason to switch based on the balance of features or on cost.

In short, they seem to solve problems that we have already solved (and the current solution is at a lower cost).

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So true. It's really too bad, as I'm certain forum members would be very supportive of someone bringing a new, useful, worthwhile product to market, but lately all we've been able to do is give a dose of reality to hopeful inventors whose ideas just weren't likely to fly. I just hope that maybe these guys will try again with a more promising product idea.

olllllo said:

In the last couple of weeks we've had 2 people that obvioulsy have the skills to envision a product and work with a manufaturer to bring a high quality good to the marketplace.
In both cases, the product seeks to replace a current method or traditional piece of equipment. The overwhelming reation has been that there is no compelling reason to switch based on the balance of features or on cost.

In short, they seem to solve problems that we have already solved (and the current solution is at a lower cost).

Here's an idea that we can all get behind and it's no trade secret:
A plate chiller that can be opened up for cleaning, preferably in the sub $100 range.

That's a real problem that is looking for product.

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What was the other one? Because I know I can have some crazy ideas sometimes .

Pasties.123

By the way, I chuckled at keg pasties, because where I live, this is a pasty:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Cornish_pasty.jpeg

I can't imagine that on my keg!

Where I live, this is a pastie:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pasties

You could put them on a keg (and perhaps Cheese does), but I can't imagine why??

YooperBrew said:

By the way, I chuckled at keg pasties, because where I live, this is a pasty:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Cornish_pasty.jpeg

I can't imagine that on my keg!

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And me.

I prefer option 2 though.

Bobby_M said:

Pros:
A brand new thing, not reused stainless.
If cornies weren't available anymore, it would be a logical next step.
Cons:
Expensive for one "keg".
Oxygen permiable with #7 bottles, better bottles would be better but that's another $25.
Clear bottles = sunlight skunking (already mentioned above).
Incomplete so far, no gas/beverage connections or diptube (have you figured this part out yet or is it up the end user?)
Water bottles are not pressure rated (you've tested one and it held. I'd recommend testing 10 of each type to failure and take half of the average failure pressure).
No overpressure safety valve. This is a far more scary condition than syrupy stainless in worst case scenario.
Assuming it's aluminum, it won't stand up to the acidity. I've left beer in an aluminum bottle overnight and it started corroding. Maybe your finish is protective?
Plastic bottles are not as easy to sanitize as stainless.
You can't fit many in a fridge/chest freezer. I fit 5 cornies in mine, only 2 five gallon better bottles.

Let's talk a little more about the unknown nature of corny kegs. The last time they were used, it was for food grade purposes especially if you get them right from a soda distributor. What do you suppose happens between then and now? It's a huge reach in logic to suggest it "might" be tainted. Even if there was something really disgusting in there, stainless isn't exactly porous. Micro breweries buy well-used dairy equipment for kettles and fermenters. How do they get away with it? Is the entire homebrew community getting scammed?

I don't know how much money you've spent in development but I'd recommend you cut your losses. I don't know why I'm the single devil's advocate here because I guarentee you're not going to convince the vast majority of keggers to take their questionable cornies to the scrap yard. If you really want to develope this thing, maybe put a spunding valve on there for pressurized fermentation.

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What he said.

as an FYI, this dude posted the exact same thing(word for word) on the Greenboard and got pretty much the same response. I wouldn't be suprized if he has spammed every homebrewing forum around. IMO he should get a vendor account or quit posting his product info and discussing it.

It's too bad that people can't deal better with "market research" like this. Though, I always loved that "American Inventor" show because of the ones where the people came on there talking about how they'd spent their life savings and lost their family all just to develop the invention, and the judges then proceed to laugh and call it a piece of crap. Maybe it's a little sick, but that sh*t was comedy gold to me.

I don't know if the carboy keg conversion thing is viable at all, but I will tell you that basing your marketing on fear is a surefire way to lose...especially if this fear has no scientific backup, and is based entirely on your paranoia.

Let me just say, if you do a good job cleaning and sanitizing you have no worries about where your kegs come from. I sanitize new kegs so well that a homeless Hep-C patient could have taken a dump in one of my cornies, and I would have no problem using it after all the valves are replaced and it goes through a complete disassemble and sanitization.

rcinnovations said:

To begin, the soda manufacturers are very capable of changing the seals in a Cornelius container, these containers were designed this way on purpose. They discarded these containers for another reason such as health, safety, or reliability.

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No, the soda manufacturers didn't abandon this method. Corney kegs are still being produced, and still being used by soda distributors, albiet it's much more rare now. I was just at a convention this weekend and both the hotel and convention center still use corney kegs. I really wanted to grab a couple of them. Also, the beer industry still uses them as well. You can purchase a 5 gal corney of Goose Island.

The shift in the beverage industry, as some have mentioned, is the bag-in-box method. It's cheaper and easier for both the manufacturer and the end-user. It has nothing to do with health reasons, safety or reliability.

Additionally, the way you're selling these is insulting to the intelligence of your audience. To think that no one on this forum would have an insight into the food/beverage business and would believe your pitch is actually insulting. Additionally, to out-right misrepresent facts is again insulting. Saying that the beverage industry has abandoned something when it hasn't is misrepresenting. You've also "implied" that corney kegs are unsafe healthwise when it's just not the case.

Wow, way to completely alienate your entire customer base. I regularly surf two forums and check a couple others and if there's one thing homebrewers don't appreciate, it's this type of spamming.

srm775 said:

No, the soda manufacturers didn't abandon this method. Corney kegs are still being produced, and still being used by soda distributors, albiet it's much more rare now. I was just at a convention this weekend and both the hotel and convention center still use corney kegs. I really wanted to grab a couple of them. Also, the beer industry still uses them as well. You can purchase a 5 gal corney of Goose Island.

The shift in the beverage industry, as some have mentioned, is the bag-in-box method. It's cheaper and easier for both the manufacturer and the end-user. It has nothing to do with health reasons, safety or reliability.

Additionally, the way you're selling these is insulting to the intelligence of your audience. To think that no one on this forum would have an insight into the food/beverage business and would believe your pitch is actually insulting. Additionally, to out-right misrepresent facts is again insulting. Saying that the beverage industry has abandoned something when it hasn't is misrepresenting. You've also "implied" that corney kegs are unsafe healthwise when it's just not the case.

Wow, way to completely alienate your entire customer base. I regularly surf two forums and check a couple others and if there's one thing homebrewers don't appreciate, it's this type of spamming.

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I don't think most people are aware of just how intelligent most home brewers are, I think they have the impression that we are all back woods hicks making hooch or something. I see plenty of home brewers who have highy technical and analytical jobs, that require advanced degrees. The same skills that make people good at research, IT or experimentation are skills that are good for home brewing.

I may not be a medical doctor, but they don't call me Dr. Don because I have lots of street cred (shout out to the east side, and my homeboy Dr. Dre).