Critique and help with fruit lambic recipe

Been brewing for years, but have just recently gotten into wild brewing. In the past few years I've developed a taste for Belgian sours and lambics and thought I'd try producing some at home.

I would like to make something like a fruit lambic, although not necessarily exactly to style. My wife and I both love New Glaurus' Belgian Red cherry Lambic. I was thinking I would do something like that, although maybe a little more sour. I have no idea what their process or recipe is, but after doing some research I've formulated my own recipe that I think will fit our palates.

Feel free to suggest anything different, or comment otherwise on this.

5 gal net volume

9 lb Pilsner malt (U.S.)
.25 lb C-40
4 lb White wheat malt
2 lb Aromatic (Belgian)

Mash at 155F for 90 min

1 oz. Hallertau 105 minute boil
Hallertau is already sitting in an open bag at room temp, in an effort to emulate the stale "aged" characteristics of Belgian hops used in these types of beers. I'm guessing it will be there for about a month or two.

1200 mL starter of WY3278 Belgian Lambic Blend yeast/bugs

The next step is where I'm not sure yet. I'm trying to decide from two options (chime in if you have another better option)

Option 1:
After 2 months in primary, add 6 lbs Oregon cherry puree along with oak chips to the primary, bulk age for 12-18 months or...

Option 2:
After 2 weeks, rack beer onto 6 lbs cherry puree & oak chips into secondary and bulk age for 12-18 months

I've read conflicting information about keeping wild beers on the trub in primary being good/bad. I'm open to ideas.

Thanks!
TB

I would rack the beer after two months in primary. Extended primary with sours (my opinion) isn't going to hurt anything.

As for your recipe... most standard lambic recipes are just 60/40 or 70/30 Belgian pils and wheat. You should use a neutral yeast to do the bulk of fermentation. I typically use US05. When fermentation is just about done, add your lambic blend.

If you're wanting the flavor like New Glaurus, you'll need to wait until closer to 6 months in before you add cherries. You'll also need to stop the yeast from eating all the sugar in the cherries, otherwise it won't be nearly as strong of a flavor.

Good luck.

Thanks for the comments!

Suthrncomfrt1884 said:

I would rack the beer after two months in primary. Extended primary with sours (my opinion) isn't going to hurt anything.

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I was leaning towards something like that, but wanted to leave the OP a bit more neutral for comments. I think I like this option more, based on what I've read about wild brews. What is your experience with this method?

As for your recipe... most standard lambic recipes are just 60/40 or 70/30 Belgian pils and wheat.

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That's consistent with what I've read, too. Like I said, though, I'm not necessarily looking to stick strictly to style. Do you foresee a problem or any ill effects of the added malts in my recipe? Will the aromatic conflict with the fruit or sourness of the fermentation?

You should use a neutral yeast to do the bulk of fermentation. I typically use US05. When fermentation is just about done, add your lambic blend.

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1. Are you suggesting that I add the lambic blend after the US-05 is done, then add the fruit and chips at that time?
2. Will this give a strong wild/sour characteristic, medium or mild? Or does it not make that much difference?

If you're wanting the flavor like New Glaurus, you'll need to wait until closer to 6 months in before you add cherries. You'll also need to stop the yeast from eating all the sugar in the cherries, otherwise it won't be nearly as strong of a flavor.

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If I add the cherries at around 6 months, how will I stop the yeast from eating the cherries? Won't the beer be too acidic and alcoholic for the saccharomyces to feed? Or will the extra sugar dilute it so that they can feed along with the bugs? (I'm showing my ignorance here.)

Good luck.

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Thanks! And thank you for your comments! I'll update this thread with what I end up doing, along with pictures of beer as it progresses.

TB

Tiber_Brew said:

I think I like this option more, based on what I've read about wild brews. What is your experience with this method?

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I haven't had any noticeable issues from leaving it in primary for 2-3 months.

Tiber_Brew said:

That's consistent with what I've read, too. Like I said, though, I'm not necessarily looking to stick strictly to style. Do you foresee a problem or any ill effects of the added malts in my recipe? Will the aromatic conflict with the fruit or sourness of the fermentation?

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I doubt it'll cause any problems. Homebrewing is all about experimenting, right? I just like to stick with basic recipes to showcase the yeast.

Tiber_Brew said:

1. Are you suggesting that I add the lambic blend after the US-05 is done, then add the fruit and chips at that time?

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Actually, after looking at the yeast you're using, it looks like you can use just that without additional yeast. Since it includes saccharomyces, it should ferment fully before the lactic acid and brett kicks in. Either way, I would wait until the beer has been fermenting for around 5-6 months before adding any fruit or oak.

Tiber_Brew said:

2. Will this give a strong wild/sour characteristic, medium or mild? Or does it not make that much difference?

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In my experience, the only thing that really influences how sour the beer gets is the length of time you let it age. Lactic acid will continue to sour the beer for close to 2 years.

Tiber_Brew said:

If I add the cherries at around 6 months, how will I stop the yeast from eating the cherries? Won't the beer be too acidic and alcoholic for the saccharomyces to feed? Or will the extra sugar dilute it so that they can feed along with the bugs? (I'm showing my ignorance here.)

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I've never personally tried this, but I've read that adding campden tablets before adding the fruit will stop the yeast and you'll just get flavor from the fruit instead of added alcohol. I'm not sure if this will work with lambic yeast though. At 6 months though, the saccharomyces will have already dropped out of suspension. What will continue to work in the beer is the lactic acid and the brett bacteria which are able to ferment more complex sugars that saccharomyces can't.

So, quite a bit going on already in this thread

I would diagree with suthrncmfrt on a couple areas

1. - no need to rack a lambic, and it may be detrimental to the bacteria over the long run, as the cake is a source of nutrients and food for them as the beer ages, traditional lambics are left on the cake for the entire fermentation, and Ive found that if your doing a sour in glass, even something like a flanders red which is racked by commercial producers, benefits from sitting on the cake in a homebrew situation

2 - dont add the fruit for a looooooong time (think 6-12mos), you want to feed the brett/bacteria and not the sacch, this will help it get more sour and funky, also unless you plan on cold crashing, fining, adding sulfite and then sorbate you will not stop the bacteria from eating all the sugars in the cherries, going that route you will also need to keg to carbonate

3 - start with the sour blend from the start, your already at a disadvantage fermenting in a carboy, you need the bacteria to get a start when there are lots of simple sugars available, if you ferment first with a clean ale yeast it will never get as sour as you want, and it will take a long aging period to get tart and funky

time does play a role, but the most important thing is food sources, severely limiting the brett/bacteria out the door limits what they will do over the long run, although you can supplement with something like maltodextrin should you choose to go the sacch first route, by feeding maltodextrin your adding a bacteria only food source, and if in say 6-9mos its not really sour you can easily add this to feed the bugs

also, do not do a starter with the lambic blend, the pedio in the blend will die if exposed to an oxygen rich environment, and they are the primary souring bug for a lambic


Another thing I would suggest doing would be to get at least one more batch going in a month or so, in my experience with sours the only way to make an exceptional beer is to blend

Suthrncomfrt1884 said:

I doubt it'll cause any problems. Homebrewing is all about experimenting, right? I just like to stick with basic recipes to showcase the yeast.

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Exactly. Hopefully this will turn out OK, but if not, I'll know more than when I started.

Actually, after looking at the yeast you're using, it looks like you can use just that without additional yeast. Since it includes saccharomyces, it should ferment fully before the lactic acid and brett kicks in. Either way, I would wait until the beer has been fermenting for around 5-6 months before adding any fruit or oak.

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That makes sense. I'll stick with that.

In my experience, the only thing that really influences how sour the beer gets is the length of time you let it age. Lactic acid will continue to sour the beer for close to 2 years.

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So if I bottled it in less than 2 years will end up with a bottle bomb?

Thanks,
TB

ryane said:

So, quite a bit going on already in this thread

I would diagree with suthrncmfrt on a couple areas

1. - no need to rack a lambic, and it may be detrimental to the bacteria over the long run, as the cake is a source of nutrients and food for them as the beer ages, traditional lambics are left on the cake for the entire fermentation, and Ive found that if your doing a sour in glass, even something like a flanders red which is racked by commercial producers, benefits from sitting on the cake in a homebrew situation

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I've read similar things. So you're suggesting I leave it in the primary for the whole duration of fermentation and bulk aging?

2 - dont add the fruit for a looooooong time (think 6-12mos), you want to feed the brett/bacteria and not the sacch, this will help it get more sour and funky, also unless you plan on cold crashing, fining, adding sulfite and then sorbate you will not stop the bacteria from eating all the sugars in the cherries, going that route you will also need to keg to carbonate

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I want to bottle this beer, what do you suggest?

3 - start with the sour blend from the start, your already at a disadvantage fermenting in a carboy, you need the bacteria to get a start when there are lots of simple sugars available, if you ferment first with a clean ale yeast it will never get as sour as you want, and it will take a long aging period to get tart and funky

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Suthrncomfrt mentioned this as well, which is what I originally had planned on doing. I'll just stick with my original plan to put the lambic blend in from the start.

also, do not do a starter with the lambic blend, the pedio in the blend will die if exposed to an oxygen rich environment, and they are the primary souring bug for a lambic

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Damn, I bought a WY propagator, not a pitchable smack pack. I don't think there will be enough viable cells to start a healthy fermentation. What do you suggest? Do I have to guy an activator pack now? Or is it OK to step up my propagator pack a little?

Another thing I would suggest doing would be to get at least one more batch going in a month or so, in my experience with sours the only way to make an exceptional beer is to blend

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Even for a fruit lambic?

Thanks,
TB

I've made perfectly fine fruit lambics without blending. I make a batch usually once every 3-6 months and before I bottle it, I check to see how I like the flavor. If it doesn't taste right, I'll let it sit for another few months until my next batch or two is done and blend it.

When it comes time to bottle, do I need to add a campden tablet or similar to prevent bottle bombs?

What do you guys do when bottling wild beers?

Thanks,
TB

Tiber_Brew said:

When it comes time to bottle, do I need to add a campden tablet or similar to prevent bottle bombs?

What do you guys do when bottling wild beers?

Thanks,
TB

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No need for campden, you need to make sure that the FG is stable though and that takes a loooong time, if your in the neighborhood of 1005 you should be pretty good to bottle, 1008 is a tad high, some of my sours have finished out there and were stable for 6+mos others drop lower, when in doubt wait, and use heavy bottles

BTW Ive never had a bottle bomb, but Ive had a few that got a bit over-carbed, and they were in my early days of brewing sours when I was still getting the feel of it

Also, as far as blending fruit beers, I guess I wasnt as clear as I shouldve been, I tend to suggest brewing many sours as one never knows what the flavor profile of a given beer will be like in 6,10,18, etc months, and its not exactly the best idea to decide upon a fruit to add without knowing if it will match the base beer

I feel that sours that fit best with fruit tend to be a bit low on the funk, and have a softer but brighter acidity, and can have an almost citrus-like quality to them, this isnt to say that other bases can make a good beer, just that in my experience they tend to have other flavors that distract from the fruit

by having some beer to blend, even in a fruit lambic, you can also adjust the acid profile when bottling to incorporate more acetic, etc should you choose to, all in all its a very good idea to have a lot of diffterent batches around, even if they half batches...........

Thanks, guys, for all the great advice. I feel like I'm a brewing n00b again, and I've been all-grain brewing for 6 years. I still laugh at these recipes calling for everything that I've been trying to keep out of, or avoid, in my beer for all these years.

So, compiling all the advice here, here's the latest procedure I'm going to use:

Stick with the original malt bill, and pitch the WY3278 lambic blend in primary. Hopefully the sacch yeast in there will carry out the initial fermentation and then the bugs can go to work. After about 2-3 weeks or so, I'll put the oak chips in. At around 6 or 7 months, I'll add the fruit puree (all in primary carboy). Bulk age for at least 12 months. Test gravity periodically and look for it leveling off. I'm using belgian bottles for bottling along with corks and cages. I'm planning on using 2/3 cup priming sugar for 5 gal along with some neutral ale yeast at bottling (suggestions welcome there, too).

I probably won't have any other wilds ready at that time, so I might not blend. I plan on doing a Flanders Red, or maybe a sour brown soon, too, but we'll see about blending that.

Thanks again for the help! I'll keep this thread updated with any new info (maybe some pics of pellicle too).

TB

couple things

1 - there isnt much oak flavor in lambics, by adding chips basically this is a way to repitch in the future, also, adding the oak early will result in a more subdued wood flavor, if you want something stronger I suggest adding it closer to bottling as it will fade

2 - I would add the fruit later in the game, say like 3-4mos from before you want to bottle, it doesnt need to sit in there for 6mos, although its not gonna hurt anything, but fruit flavor can and does fade

Cork + cages, look nice but can be kinda pricey, if you want a nice presentation which i can easily understand on these beers, you might try the cantillon approach, add a wine cork and then cap on top of it, looks good and is very cheap

ryane said:

couple things

1 - there isnt much oak flavor in lambics, by adding chips basically this is a way to repitch in the future, also, adding the oak early will result in a more subdued wood flavor, if you want something stronger I suggest adding it closer to bottling as it will fade

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I'm not looking for huge oak flavor, but just a slight bit. I was thinking it would also give a place for the bugs to grow, too. Am I correct about this?

2 - I would add the fruit later in the game, say like 3-4mos from before you want to bottle, it doesnt need to sit in there for 6mos, although its not gonna hurt anything, but fruit flavor can and does fade

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Maybe add it at about 8-10 months instead? I'm kind of looking for a fruit flavor/aroma, but not like drinking liquid cherries, either. What do you think?

Cork + cages, look nice but can be kinda pricey, if you want a nice presentation which i can easily understand on these beers, you might try the cantillon approach, add a wine cork and then cap on top of it, looks good and is very cheap

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Good suggestion. I might do a combination. I have a few of those bottles that would work, and a few that require the cork + cage. Maybe those are the ones I could give as gifts (if this turns out OK).

Thanks again!

So, I'm going to revive this thread. I apologize for putting this off for so long, but I am finally getting around to brewing this beer within the month.

I'm not going to use the malt bill listed in the OP. I think I'll go with a more conservative approach, maybe pils, wheat, and a tad of aromatic. No crystal.

Thanks again for all the tips guys. I'll try to update the thread periodically.

Also, if anyone else has any suggestions, tips, corrections to any of my assumptions, or questions, feel free.

Thanks
TB

Question: since I was advised to not make a starter with the Lambic blend, and my current packet is several months old, should I pick up another packet and pitch two into the carboy?

Thanks!

I wouldn't worry about another packet. Usually, sour yeasts say not to use them after 6 months, but I've used some that are closer to a year old without any problems.

Suthrncomfrt1884 said:

I wouldn't worry about another packet. Usually, sour yeasts say not to use them after 6 months, but I've used some that are closer to a year old without any problems.

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I disagree, I would get another fresh packet to pitch along with your old one

You want viable bugs,and especially yeast when you start, the mixed blends already have low amounts of each organism in there, think about it basically for all "clean" beers you need to make a starter with a smack pack, you dont want to do this with a sour blend so you need to make sure the pack is fresh

If you have another sour you can add some of the cake from that along with the old pack and youd probably be ok, though I would still add a pinch of a dry yeast myself

ryane said:

I disagree, I would get another fresh packet to pitch along with your old one

You want viable bugs,and especially yeast when you start, the mixed blends already have low amounts of each organism in there, think about it basically for all "clean" beers you need to make a starter with a smack pack, you dont want to do this with a sour blend so you need to make sure the pack is fresh

If you have another sour you can add some of the cake from that along with the old pack and youd probably be ok, though I would still add a pinch of a dry yeast myself

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I guess I just look at it like..."it's already going to be funky...why spend more money?" I'm pretty lazy when it comes to sours. I don't take all the time and effort that most people put into theirs. Yes, I blend, and I age them...but other than that, I don't do much. I don't sanitize as much as I normally do...that's for sure.

I'll probably pitch another fresh packet, just to be safe.

Thanks for the help, guys.

This is my first pLambic, BTW. My only wild beer experience is with Brett beers.

Heating up strike water for this beer as I type.

New recipe is:

8 lb 2-row pale (used the last of my Pils for a Bohemian Pils)
3.5 lb white wheat
.75 lb Belgian aromatic

154F for 75 min
168 for 10 min

1 oz. aged Hallertau 90 min

Cool, pitch WY Lambic blend activator into primary

Ferment for 10 months, add cherry purée

10 days prior to bottling, add .75 oz oak chips

Cheers,
TB

Primary was slow to start, but on the 3rd day it took off with explosive kraeusen. Color was spot on, OG was 1.052, and the aged hops tasted pretty bad.

More updates as they develop.

All sacch activity seems to be done, but from a recent sample, it tastes like the Brett has started working on the wort. No signs of a pellicle yet.

Tiber_Brew said:

All sacch activity seems to be done, but from a recent sample, it tastes like the Brett has started working on the wort. No signs of a pellicle yet.

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I would just forget about it for awhile. The more samples you take now, the less you'll have at bottling! I just tried my 7 month old pLambic for the first time and it tastes great. It has a tart sour flavor with some funkiness. Reminds me of Russian River Temptation at this point.

Good luck with your brew!

That's my plan. I wanted to take a gravity reading and make sure it was off to a good start. Now I put it up stairs in the guest room closet to forget about for a while. I might have to brew another batch in a few months for potential blending.

Thanks for the wishes!
TB

Any updates on this beer? I'm looking to start a raspberry lambic in the next couple days. This will be my first wild fermentation. I'm most worried about contaminating my brewing equipment and cross contaminating.

Yes, this beer is almost ready to rack onto my cherry puree. I added 1 oz. of oak about 2 weeks ago. I pulled a sample late last week and it tastes really good. I'm tempted to just bottle it as is, but I will still add the fruit.

I use separate carboys, siphon, bottling bucket, and bottling wand. Not sure if that's absolutely necessary, but I have the extra set of equipment, so I might as well use it. I still plan on soaking the equip in PBW and sanitizing as usual, though. I have a sour brown fermenting right now, but I want to get another 10 gallons of pLambic going ASAP. I might try my hand at blending now that I have a couple basic batches under my belt.

I will try to get a decent shot of the pellicle if I can. The carboy is pretty gunked up from the initial kraeusen, so it might be difficult to get a good shot w/ the camera.

TB

Did you end up bottling this yet? I've done my first batches of plambics over the last couple weekends. Now comes the waiting game...

joshrosborne said:

Did you end up bottling this yet? I've done my first batches of plambics over the last couple weekends. Now comes the waiting game...

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Yes, I bottled this fairly recently. It has carbonated sufficiently, but I'm still giving it some more time before I start opening too many more. I added some fresh US-05 yeast at bottling, along with about 1/3 cup sucrose for mild-mid carbonation.

I struggled a bit with the fruit puree. It came down to a choice: leave the bottom 1/5th of the puree/beer sludge in the carboy, or transfer all of it to the bottling bucket and have some sludge in each bottle. I decided to put everything in the bottle, so we'll see how that pans out. You do have to decant, unless you want that thick cherry sludge in your glass.

It tasted pretty damn good when I opened the last bottle. I think it will benefit form age, but it is promising. Waiting is the hardest part, so I brewed a couple more batches of pLambic for later blending and to somewhat build up a pipeline of sours.

Hi Guys! I was planning on brewing my first lambic and have a couple of questions!

-Does anyone have experience on using oak barrels?

- I know that lambics in belgium are fermented and aged in oak barrels. I actually have a new 5 gallon oak barrel at home and was thinking on using it. Do you think it would be fine or should I use a glass carboy?

If your barrel is brand new (charred, I assume?), then I wouldn't use that for your lambic. I would get a hold of some French or Hungarian oak and use that in a carboy if it were me.