Belgian Dark Strong Ale The Pious - Westvleteren 12 style quad - multiple

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Hello, CSI. Did you ever try this experiment? If so, how did the Grolsch bottles hold up? I will soon be bottling my Westy, and was intending to use some Grolsch bottles, since I have lots of them, but few others.

Unfortunately I never got back to it. Orangehero left a link for some already vulcanized grolsch washers just above. They look like a winner to me. I'm going to buy some.
 

Thanks for the link. I'm tempted to purchase them, but the cost of shipping (to Canada) is quite a bit more than the cost of the gaskets. We always pay much more for almost everything (especially if it includes shipping) than in the U.S. (free shipping). I wish they had parcel normal mail service to Canada rather than just priority service.
 
Unfortunately I never got back to it. Orangehero left a link for some already vulcanized grolsch washers just above. They look like a winner to me. I'm going to buy some.

Looks like with these, it should work. Wish they were less expensive for us Canadians. I might try it by replacing the existing Grolsch gaskets with regular new Groslch/flip-top gaskets, which are available here.
 
I am going to brew the traditional version of this from the OP for the first time in a few months time. I haven't had the time yet to read through all 200+ pages and years of research you all have done, but quite frankly I don't know I have the stomach for 200+ pages.

Can someone sum up any important facts/tips or recipe changes that were made in the last 200+ pages. I greatly appreciate it!

Cheers,
Steve
 
I am going to brew the traditional version of this from the OP for the first time in a few months time. I haven't had the time yet to read through all 200+ pages and years of research you all have done, but quite frankly I don't know I have the stomach for 200+ pages.

Can someone sum up any important facts/tips or recipe changes that were made in the last 200+ pages. I greatly appreciate it!

Cheers,
Steve

If brewing the Traditional brew this one:

http://www.candisyrup.com/uploads/6/0/3/5/6035776/westvleteren_12_clone_-_single_malt_040.pdf

On first brew, follow the pitch rates linked in the doc, (for 5 gallons - 20 liters pitch 320 Billion cells).
http://www.candisyrup.com/uploads/6/0/3/5/6035776/westvleteren_12_clone_-_single_malt_040.pdf

Have plenty of fermenter head room and a sterile blow-off capture.
 
I am going to brew the traditional version of this from the OP for the first time in a few months time. I haven't had the time yet to read through all 200+ pages and years of research you all have done, but quite frankly I don't know I have the stomach for 200+ pages.

Can someone sum up any important facts/tips or recipe changes that were made in the last 200+ pages. I greatly appreciate it!

Cheers,
Steve

CSI made some great comments post 2153. The one tweak that I like that is not in the original recipe is to collect 3/4 gallon of the first runnings and boil it down to syrup. Then add it back to the boil kettle.
 
CSI made some great comments post 2153. The one tweak that I like that is not in the original recipe is to collect 3/4 gallon of the first runnings and boil it down to syrup. Then add it back to the boil kettle.

Although we can't prove the monks at St. Sixtus do a clear-wort decoction and boildown, a subtle maltose caramel is in the palate of the Westvleteren 12 import. They could be using a re-boiled pils LME, or they could be doing it using clear-wort decoction. For flavor I would lean toward the latter, (if going the decoction route). It will probably alert any BJCP judge to pay close attention to your ale.
 
At the board advice of SmokingHole a while back we began a series of tests for an oak barrel-aged variation of the Westy clone. We're using 5 gallon barrels for small batch testing. Since it's barrel-aged this may be off topic on this board so I'll only mention it once. So far the intermediate tests have been spectacular with the oak creating a silky ale while adding only a hint of oak tannin. We'll know more in about 3-4 months.

Full_Barrel.jpg


Barrel_Label.jpg
 
Has anyone covered how best to brew the traditional with with single-infusion mashing? I do the cooler mash tun thing and generally mash with ~3/5 of my water at my target temp, then i'll add add another ~2/5 of boiling water to bump the temp up 7-9 degrees for a mash-out for 15 minutes. So if i looked at the posted mash schedule (below) I think i would just have to skip the protein rest and do the 151 and 159 steps with my normal technique. Thoughts/advice?

10 min Protein Rest Add 32.00 qt of water at 137.5 F 132.0 F
30 min Saccharification Decoct 8.79 qt of mash and boil it 151.0 F
30 min Saccharification Decoct 4.85 qt of mash and boil it 159.0 F
 
Has anyone covered how best to brew the traditional with with single-infusion mashing? I do the cooler mash tun thing and generally mash with ~3/5 of my water at my target temp, then i'll add add another ~2/5 of boiling water to bump the temp up 7-9 degrees for a mash-out for 15 minutes. So if i looked at the posted mash schedule (below) I think i would just have to skip the protein rest and do the 151 and 159 steps with my normal technique. Thoughts/advice?

10 min Protein Rest Add 32.00 qt of water at 137.5 F 132.0 F
30 min Saccharification Decoct 8.79 qt of mash and boil it 151.0 F
30 min Saccharification Decoct 4.85 qt of mash and boil it 159.0 F

As Saq mentioned in an early post (Number 8) a protein rest is not strictly necessary, and each method will yield slightly different flavors. I do a single infusion mash and no decoction, except for boiling down part of the first runnings. I've never had a Westy 12 so I have no opinion on how close I come to the original, just very pleased with the result.
 
As Saq mentioned in an early post (Number 8) a protein rest is not strictly necessary, and each method will yield slightly different flavors. I do a single infusion mash and no decoction, except for boiling down part of the first runnings. I've never had a Westy 12 so I have no opinion on how close I come to the original, just very pleased with the result.

I also did a single infusion and boiled down the first 3/4 gallon of runnings into a syrup. I have tried a true Westvleteren 12, and although still early, based on the recipe I followed (saq's revised recipe), I find the taste closer to a Bernardus 12 than to a Westy. Based on a lot of comments I've seen on the Internet, most people seem to think that the two taste very similar. I tried a Westvleteren beside a St. Bernardus, and found the two to be as different as day and night. The Westvleteren had a much more smooth, bready, malty, cinnamon, mild plumb-like taste than the St. Bernardus, which seemed more "fruity" and acrid, and not as smooth. But that's my taste buds and opinion.
 
Has anyone covered how best to brew the traditional with with single-infusion mashing? I do the cooler mash tun thing and generally mash with ~3/5 of my water at my target temp, then i'll add add another ~2/5 of boiling water to bump the temp up 7-9 degrees for a mash-out for 15 minutes. So if i looked at the posted mash schedule (below) I think i would just have to skip the protein rest and do the 151 and 159 steps with my normal technique. Thoughts/advice?

10 min Protein Rest Add 32.00 qt of water at 137.5 F 132.0 F
30 min Saccharification Decoct 8.79 qt of mash and boil it 151.0 F
30 min Saccharification Decoct 4.85 qt of mash and boil it 159.0 F

Oddly, multi-step or single infusion will make very little change in the final ale unless decocting. Decoction, (traditional or clear wort boil down), will make a noticeable difference. Performing the protease rest is usually done just to set up the mash for the temp rise to full conversion when adding the secondary boiled mass back to the mash tun.
 
So when pulling 3/4 gal to boil down.... do you wait for the mash to be finished, then pull 3/4 to the side and boil it while sparging... or pull that 3/4gal early and boil it while mash is finishing... or will it really matter? (plannign on a 90min mash and a slightly different quad recipe from the traditional FWIW.

Thanks
 
Oddly, multi-step or single infusion will make very little change in the final ale unless decocting. Decoction, (traditional or clear wort boil down), will make a noticeable difference. Performing the protease rest is usually done just to set up the mash for the temp rise to full conversion when adding the secondary boiled mass back to the mash tun.


apparently I need to read up on decoction mashing, I though this was done with heat/water additions. a simple googling told it was was not.

If i understand this brief description from John palmers website correctly you literally pull 8.79wt of the mash (liquid plus grains) out to a pot, raise the temp to 151 for 30 minutes, then bring it to a boil and pour it back into your cooler? Then repeat with 4.85 qt at 159? I thought one should never boil grains. forgive my naivete.
 
So when pulling 3/4 gal to boil down.... do you wait for the mash to be finished, then pull 3/4 to the side and boil it while sparging... or pull that 3/4gal early and boil it while mash is finishing... or will it really matter? (plannign on a 90min mash and a slightly different quad recipe from the traditional FWIW.

Thanks

I began boiling it as soon as it was drawn from the first runnings. By the time it was finished boiling down to a syrup, the boil was almost done, so I added it into the boil during the last 20 minutes or so. I just treat it like adding any syrup, although in this case, it has already been boiled. So it probably doesn't matter when it is added. Perhaps the later in the boil the better.
 
A few people have asked for a summary of the comments in this forum. I highly recommend that people read ALL the comments in this forum, since there are dozens and dozens of great tips. The following is a summary of SOME of the great comments that I have transcribed from my handwritten notes, and ones that I have used in my process. It is by no means complete, but I hope that it will be of some help to some. Note also that this is only ONE of several variations of the recipe. This is based on saq's revised recipe. I also recommend that you check out CSI's recipes.

WESTVLETERN RECIPE AND PROCESS

RECIPE

Saq’s Revised Recipe
--------------------
Recipe Type: All Grain
Yeast: WLP530
Yeast Starter: 3.8L stirplate
Batch Size (Gallons): 5.5
Original Gravity: 1.090
Final Gravity: 1.012
IBU: 35
Boiling Time (Minutes): 90
Color: 33
Primary Fermentation (# of Days & Temp): 5 @ 83
Additional Fermentation: 60 @ 50
Secondary Fermentation (# of Days & Temp): 2 @ 65

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 5.50 gal
Boil Size: 7.75 gal
Estimated Pre-Boil Gravity: 1.065 SG
Estimated OG: 1.091 SG
Estimated FG: 1.006 SG
Estimated ABV: 11.4 %
Estimated Color: 36.8 SRM
Estimated IBU: 37.9 IBUs (Rager)
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.00 %
Boil Time: 90 Minutes
Efficiency: 75.00

Measurements
--------------------
Measured OG: 1.090 SG
Measured FG: 1.012 SG
ABV: 10.4 %

Total Grains: 17 lbs 15.4 oz
Total Hops: 2.00 oz

Mash Ingredients
----------------------------------
Amt Name Type # %/IBU

8 lbs Pilsner (2 Row) Bel (2.0 SRM) Grain 1 44.5 %
4 lbs Pale Malt (2 Row) Bel (3.0 SRM) Grain 2 22.3 %
1 lbs 8.0 oz Caramunich Malt (56.0 SRM) Grain 3 8.4 %
12.0 oz Biscuit Malt (27.0 SRM) Grain 4 4.2 %
5.3 oz Aromatic Malt (20.0 SRM) Grain 5 1.8 %
4.0 oz Special B Malt (180.0 SRM) Grain 6 1.4 %
2.1 oz Chocolate Malt (350.0 SRM) Grain 7 0.7 %


Mash Steps
---------------
Name Description Step Temperature Step Time
Mash In Add 22.77 qt of water at 158.2 F 149.0 F 90 min
Fly sparge with 3.85 gal water at 168.0 F


Boil Ingredients
---------------------
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
2 lbs D90 Candi Syrup (90.0 SRM) Sugar 8 11.1 %
1 lbs D180 Candi Syrup (180.0 SRM) Sugar 9 5.6 %
1.00 oz Brewer's Gold [8.00 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 10 33.4 IBUs
1.00 oz Styrian Goldings [4.10 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 11 4.6 IBUs
1.00 Items Servomyces (Boil 5.0 mins) Other 12 -


Fermentation Ingredients
----------------------------------
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
1.0 pkg Abbey Ale (White Labs #WLP530) [40.00 ml] Yeast 13 -


Fermentation
------------------
1/5/2012 - Primary Fermentation (18.00 days at 80.0 F ending at 80.0 F)
1/23/2012 - Secondary Fermentation (3.00 days at 80.0 F ending at 60.0 F)
1/26/2012 - Tertiary Fermentation (3.00 days at 60.0 F ending at 36.0 F)

Do a separate boildown of about 0.75 gallons of first runnings into syrup, should be able to add back to boil kettle before boil gets rolling.
- Boiling down into syrup
That means take .75 gallons of runnings from the mash into a separate (pref a big 3.5-5gal pot) and boil it down until so much has evaporate that it starts to burn and bubble. At this point it will look like syrup and you'll have less than a pint to pour into the kettle. It’s like what you do with strong scotch ales.
I've done quads like this before at 30 SRM and it’s too light in color. 35 SRM or higher for sure.

GENERAL PROCESS

- prepare 2 liter starter of yeast
- mash in about 18 lb of grain - add 22.77 quarts of water at 158.2 F, resulting in 149.0 F
- mash for 90 minutes
- fly sparge with 3.85 gal (15.4 quarts) water at 168.0 F
- collect 7.75 gallons
- take out about ¾ gallons of first runnings, boil it down to about a pint, and add it back to the kettle
- boil for 90 minutes, add hops and end up with 5.5 gallons
- add candi sugar at flameout
- chill wort to 65 F
- pitch starter yeast, wrap carboy with a blanket, or sleeping bag, and let it self-rise to about 82-83 F
- hold it there for about 5 days (primary fermentation) – may have to add external heat
- when S.G. is about 1.015 - 1.018, start to chill to 65 F (secondary fermentation)
- hold there until you hit terminal gravity at 1.012 (about 2 days)
- then leave it on the yeast for another week
- then rack into secondary and chill to 50 F for seven weeks to 60 days (additional fermentation)
- carbonate ale
- three ways to bottle condition:
a) pressurize in keg
- pressurize keg to about 3.1 psi; bottle at about 3 psi
b) use candi syrup and harvested yeast
- use yeast from previous krausen – add DME, put on stir plate, and decant just before adding to bucket
- use about 30 grams/gallon of Candi Syrup (D-180 is best) for total of 150 grams with a ½ cup of water
- aim for about 2.5 – 2.6 volumes CO2
c) use yeast package and sugar
- generally, use ½ package of rehydrated yeast along with about 4 ounces (113 grams) of corn sugar (note – 5 ounces is too high for this style)
- yeast could be Nottingham (5 gm), Champagne yeast (Lalvin EC-1118), WLP530, or Safale US-05 (Champagne is probably the best)

GRAIN

- use Dingemann’s pilsener and pale malts which is better than Castle
- the German Pilsener results in a slightly more bready flavour that lends well to the Westy 12 clone
- CSI – for the Westy we grind the grain at .0320” gap – this could be a little coarse, but it cuts down on husk dusting and some of the astringency – low astringency matches the style well
- CSI – this is now a Pils only Belgian quad – pale malt is not required

HOPS

- use Brewer’s Gold for bittering rather than Northern Brewer
- it’s the actual bittering hop used for Westvletern 12
- for bittering hop, Brewer’s Gold ages well and retains some of its spicy character after 12 months in conditioning
- Northern Brewer is a little more floral and ages to “faintly noticeable” after 12 months
- Northern Brewer is likely the bittering hop used, but the IBU’s are probably higher than reported
- Poster – likely need 10-15% more hops than reported

SYRUPS

- add candi syrup at flameout
- some add it 10 minutes before flameout
- D180 is the premium Belgian style candi syrup you would use in the Westy clones
- D-180 has a shelf life of 6 months (at 60F) – tested for longer than that
- D-90 was crafted to be used mainly in dubbles
- D-180 was designed to be used for Westvleteren 12 and Rochefort 10

YEAST, YEAST STARTER AND PITCHING

- USE Westmalle yeast only:
WLP530
Wyeast 3787
- use a 2 liter starter (1.040 SG) on stir plate – give it two O2 infusions
- use servomyces for starter (yeast nutrient)
- rule of thumb – pitch yeast at about 1 million cells per ml per degree Plato
- best to pitch between 300 – 320 billion cells within 6-7 days
- a 2 L starter (with 150 billion cells) will create about 320 – 340 billion cells
- CSI – for a 2000 ml starter, we pitch 165 billion cells to end up at 340-350 billion cells
- CSI – pitch at 320-330 billion cells (used a 2000 ml starter seeded with 160 billion cells)
- CSI use a 200 ml starter seeded with 150 billion cells to give approx.. 320 billion cells
- CSI – we use a 4 L Erlenmeyer flask for yeast propagation and a 2” stir bar – we oxygenate our starters 2 times and keep it at a steady 72F during culture

MASHING

- mash for 90 minutes at 148-150 F
- for single infusion, do not mash higher than 150 F (152 F is too high)
- 165 F is too warm for the sparge
- some say to sparge at 168 F
- CSI – mashing in the low end (148 F) and mashing out on the higher end (170 F) gets the best of both worlds for fermentability and head retention
- do not do a mashout
- sparge as normal to get your pre-boil volume
- mash ph – Westy does best between 5.3 – 5.5
- CSI – our efficiency is set for 76% or up to 78%

BOILING DOWN INTO SYRUP

- add extra ¾ gallon of water in recipe for boiling down into syrup
- take about ¾ gallon (2.8 liters) of the first runnings from the mash into a separate pot (I prefer a big 3.5 gallon pot) and boil it down until it starts to burn and bubble foam up
- it will look like syrup and you will have less than a pint (0.5 liter)
- going too far is when it bubbles up so much that it starts to come out of your pot because it’s just so thick
- if you can shake the pot around and it still moves without leaving a sludge behind, then it’s not thick enough
- once you reduce it down big time (from 96 ounces > 12 ounces OR from 2.8 liters > 0.35 liters), transfer it to the main kettle and put some wort back in to deglaze the container to get all the syrup out

FERMENTATION

- need to get fermentation up to 78 F minimum to get the high attenuation that defines this style
- a finishing gravity of 1.012 is to style
- a finishing gravity of 1.016 wouldn’t be too sweet, but 1.020 is too much
- use a blow-off tube and ferment in a large carboy – 7 or 8 US gallons
- use fermcap to control the blow off – 2 or 3 drops per gallon
- recommend getting a thermowell for your carboy – I use the 16 inch stainless steel one from “Brewer’s Hardware” (ID = .305"; OD = .375") – [the STC-1000 temperature controller probe has an end that is 1/4" thick, so .3" ID would work perfectly]
- can use a stick-on temp. gauge, but take into account that the temperature in the centre of the wort is likely 1-2 F higher than the sidewalls
- to warm bucket and hold at the warmer temperatures, can use a fermwrap or some kind of heater that you can wrap around the fermenter
- a brewbelt could cause the fermentation temperature to rise too fast, which could cause the yeast to get a little harsh
- an aquarium heater with the fermenter in a water bath is an effective solution for warming the fermenter
- if final gravity is too high, you can use a more attenuative yeast (which can eat more complex sugars), such as WY 3711
- let it free rise to 82 F, which will likely happen by the end of about 36 hours, and hold it there until you get a SG of 1.015 or so – then drop some until you reach a FG of 1.012 – give it another week on the yeast after that, then rack and age it
- for this beer, you want to be hitting at least 84% attenuation – the target attenuation is 86%
- saq has lately been fermenting it to 78-80 to push the yeast hard
- poster – at an ambient temperature of 68-70 F, my ale was chilled to 65 and self-rose to 80 F by the 36th hour – from there he strapped on a brew belt with the temperature controller set at 82 F
- poster – my room temperature is about 71 F and I usually get about 7 F degrees on top of that from fermentation alone – I had wrapped the carboy in a fairly heavy blanket at the start and hit +82 F
- make sure the temperature stays under 83 F
- saq – should rise from 68-82 F in 4-6 days – we set to peak at 80-81 F
- oxygenate wort once at start, once at 6 hours, and once just before chilling
- CSI – we ramp as evenly as possible from pitch to 79F over 7 days – it’s very active for the first 3-4 days
- for beers this big, oxygenate the ale slowly and well with pure O2 for 90 seconds or better
- CSI ramping from 63F to 79F works best for us
- don’t let the yeast escape during the violent blow off – have a sterile trap to capture the yeast
- CSI – ramping up should be done as evenly and incremental a rise as possible over 7 days – about 2.2 F rise daily
- CSI – the monks at St. Sixtus crash the Abt 12 for about 6 weeks to floc the yeast once the FG is reached
- CSI – I like to keep it at the top of the 70s and even up to 80F until it reaches 1 point above FG (1.013)
- CSI – we always rack to the secondary when the ale reaches 1.013 to slow the fermentation down

AGING

- 8 months plus for aging is a bare minimum to begin to see some of the flavours peak

BOTTLING/KEGGING

Background
- can bottle from keg when it has sat and stabilized at about 3.1 volumes/CO2
- bottle when keg is set at about 3 psi
- use frozen bottles to reduce temperature shock and to keep foam down
- can also rack into glass carboy, let it sit for about 2 months, then pitch fresh yeast harvested from the primary fermentation and bottle with priming sugar
- make sure to add some fresh wort to the yeast and decant before using it for bottle conditioning
- the pitching rate for bottling – about equivalent to half a pouch of wyeast (resulting in roughly 50 – 75 billion cells) for a 5 gallon batch
- best to harvest yeast from the krausen – use a sanitized turkey baster and suck up the yeast from the middle of the krausen when it’s at its highest and most active – then store it in a small Mason jar in the fridge for later use – will have to add more wort to the yeast, put on stir plate, cool and decant before adding
- hold bottles at a modest temperature of about 75-78 F for 10-14 days for initial carbonation
- could take 3-6 weeks or much longer to carbonate properly
- category of beer – 18E Belgian Strong Dark
- for sterile yeast harvesting at high krausen, see Chris White and Jamil’s volume on “Yeast” for advice
- see calculator for calculating how much yeast to use for bottling – Page 103 of forum, Message 1025
- CSI – for priming, use 29 grams/gallon of Golden Candi Syrup (32 pppg) - corn sugar is about 46 pppg – that’s about 2.1 vol. CO2 using 20 grams/gallon of corn sugar – for this, standard bottles should be fine
- CSI - 320 grams/gallon of Candi Syrup at 68 F gives you about 2.3 volumes of CO2 – a good average
- priming with corn sugar is:
30 grams/gallon candi sugar * (32 pppg candi sugar/46 pppg corn sugar)
= 21 grams/gallon using corn sugar
That is the same as 2.2 volumes CO2
- for bottling, the actual Westy’s are not over 2.7 volumes of CO2 – we bottle at 2.5 volumes in standard long necks
- I keg mine at 10 PSI
- the proper level of carbonation is about 2.5 volumes – using standard 12 oz. (350 ml) bottles should be fine
- CSI – the Westvletern 12 seems to be in the 2.5 – 2.6 volumes range, although it is reported to be higher
- Poster – as a general rule, I take a cup of sugar dissolved in about a cup of water and add it to a 5 gallon corny and bottle it from the corny – seems to carb correctly for my palate
- good priming calculator – see link Page 187, Message 1869 of forum
- at room temperature for 5 gallons to 2.5 volumes, they recommend 37 grams/gallon of Candi Syrup – we recommend 33 grams/gallon
- CSI – when we repitch for bottling I like to use 50-75 billion cells or so for 5 gallons – can save some from the primary
Different Yeasts and Sugars Used
- for bottle conditioning, can use 40-41 grams/gallon of candi syrup (D180) – use another 1 liter stir plate pitch of a Westmalle culture from the original fermentation but decant before re-pitching
- one poster bottles with 5 grams of rehydrated Nottingham yeast and 5 ounces (142 grams) of dextrose
- one poster bottles with 5 grams of dry neutral ale yeast and dextrose to 2.7 volumes of CO2
- some posters recommend to use ½ package of champagne yeast for bottling
- champagne yeast will quickly settle to the bottom of the fermenter, so add it to the fermenter, and stir gently before bottling
- poster – for bottle priming, I advocate just using a packet of rehydrated champagne yeast which has been allowed to sit in your priming sugar for an hour or so – I’ve done this many times, even bottle conditioning a 16% ABV beer – it works well
- some posters use WLP530 yeast for bottling
- poster – rather than Champagne yeast, I used Safale US-05 ($4 in Canada)
- poster – I repitched with ½ pack of US05 and added 5.5 ounces (156 gm) of priming sugar – this should work out to 3.2 carb level – condition the bottles at 72-73 F – could take 3 weeks or more, even months
- poster – instead of using ½ packet of US-05, use Lalvin EC-1118 ($1 per 5 gm packet in US, $2.49 in Canada)) for beers 8-11% - it falls to the bottom of the bottling bucket fast, so give it a gentle stir before filling the first bottle and again a second stir mid-bottling
- you can use EC-1118 for all high ABV bottle conditioning – this is a Champagne yeast
- Poster – I used Wyeast 3787 (Trappist High Gravity)
- can use wine yeast to bottle condition – it can only ferment simple sugars and not the residual sugars in the beer
- can do a 500 ml stir plate repitch of WLP530 (per 5.25 gal) – use 29-30 gm/gallon syrup – usually Simplicity or CSI Golden - a 500 ml starter gets about 167 billion cells for bottle priming
- CSI – we use Westmalle for bottling – using Champagne yeast should also work

Different Bottles to Use
- for bottles, can use 375/750 ml. Belgian crown bottles
- for higher carbing, use magnum or mini Champagne bottles
- CSI - we carb around 2.4 volumes in standard bottles without breakage
- volumes of 2.6 – 2.8 is fine for standard bottles
- CSI – most standard bottles reach their pressure limitation at about 2.9 volumes
- can use Champagne bottles which can withstand more pressure
- concern about using Grolsch bottles – the rubber gaskets might dry out if left for a year or so of aging, releasing pressure (not tested in practice)
- EZ-cap bottles are tested to around 120 psi at which time the washer pushes out from under the cap

BOTTLE CONDITIONING BY CSI

1) Boil 30 gm/gal D-180 for priming diluted 2:1 by volume with water for miscibility. For 5 gallons, this is 180 gm syrup and about ½ cup water.
2) Cover and cool to room temperature.
3) Open the new batch fermenter (concurrent brew) and collect ½ cup of top krausen with a sterile stainless steel measuring cup – a little over is fine.
4) Stir in syrup and yeast to finished ale for priming – stir “gently”.
5) Bottle. Should get perfect carbonation.

NOTE: 1) yeast collected from another batch 12-18 hours into ferment;
2) any of the syrups can be used for priming – not a great difference in final profile but noticeable.

RE-YEASTING PROCEDURE BY POSTER

- yeasting dosing rate: 1 million cells/ml finished beer
20.0e9 yeast cells/gm of dry yeast
5.0 gal = 18,927 ml
1.0e6 * X/18,927
X = 0.95 grams of dry yeast
Boil 4 oz. (118 ml) of spring water in a 4 quart (3.8 liters) measuring cup
Chill to 80F or less.
Sprinkle 1.9 gm dry yeast on water surface and cover with plastic wrap.
Let it sit for 15 minutes.
(Note: measure by weighing full package with top cut off, tare scale and add gradually and keep weighing until about – 1.9 gm)
Stir yeast, pitch 50% of prepared yeast into bottling bucket during the transfer, discard the rest.
 
Wow.... Thanks Bottoms Up... Perhaps that should be added to page one of the thread for future reference?
 
apparently I need to read up on decoction mashing, I though this was done with heat/water additions. a simple googling told it was was not.

If i understand this brief description from John palmers website correctly you literally pull 8.79wt of the mash (liquid plus grains) out to a pot, raise the temp to 151 for 30 minutes, then bring it to a boil and pour it back into your cooler? Then repeat with 4.85 qt at 159? I thought one should never boil grains. forgive my naivete.

If I recall correctly, you pull 1qt of thick mash for every pound of grist and boil it for about ten minutes. Don't pull too much liquid. The goal is to leave the amalyse in the mash for conversion. Slowly add it back to the mash to raise the temperature to the next step, hold for 20-30 min, pull another decoction, boil it, repeat until mash out. Usually a double decoction is good enough unless you want to dedicate 3-4 hours to do a full triple decoction mash.
 
If I recall correctly, you pull 1qt of thick mash for every pound of grist and boil it for about ten minutes. Don't pull too much liquid. The goal is to leave the amalyse in the mash for conversion. Slowly add it back to the mash to raise the temperature to the next step, hold for 20-30 min, pull another decoction, boil it, repeat until mash out. Usually a double decoction is good enough unless you want to dedicate 3-4 hours to do a full triple decoction mash.

A decoction volume is a variable calculation based on current volume & temp and target temp desired. The calc and method was a little intricate so we created an entire help doc related to just single decoction. It's entitled "Single Decoction" out on http://www.candisyrup.com/help-docs.html

Most decided not to use the traditional decoction due to the added difficultly to an already complex brew. This is the reason we pulled it from the Westy clone recipe, but for those of us who don't mind the additional effort, it's out there :)
 
Bottoms_Up synopsis above is the best I have ever seen on this board. It's a good milestone reference point.

In the past thread contributors & visitors suggested moving to another thread that is condensed with what has been learned over the last 4 years. Bottoms_Up synopsis could give us a beginning transition post to do that. I'm OK either way.

Maybe we can post +1 for "yes", -1 for "no", or 0 for "ok either way"
 
Bottoms_Up synopsis above is the best I have ever seen on this board. It's a good milestone reference point.

In the past thread contributors & visitors suggested moving to another thread that is condensed with what has been learned over the last 4 years. Bottoms_Up synopsis could give us a beginning transition post to do that. I'm OK either way.

Maybe we can post +1 for "yes", -1 for "no", or 0 for "ok either way"

Sounds like a great idea, although I have no dog in this hunt. Reading the entire thread was fun for me as well as informative. Sure, most people just want a recipe and a few tips but if there were a leather-bound version of this on Amazon I would probably buy it!

So +1 (not sure that I meet the residency requirement though).
 
Bottoms_Up synopsis above is the best I have ever seen on this board. It's a good milestone reference point.

In the past thread contributors & visitors suggested moving to another thread that is condensed with what has been learned over the last 4 years. Bottoms_Up synopsis could give us a beginning transition post to do that. I'm OK either way.

Maybe we can post +1 for "yes", -1 for "no", or 0 for "ok either way"

+1

I'm posting +1 only to make it easier for new readers to get the whole story in fewer pages.
 
Bottoms_Up synopsis above is the best I have ever seen on this board. It's a good milestone reference point.

In the past thread contributors & visitors suggested moving to another thread that is condensed with what has been learned over the last 4 years. Bottoms_Up synopsis could give us a beginning transition post to do that. I'm OK either way.

Maybe we can post +1 for "yes", -1 for "no", or 0 for "ok either way"

I'll post a +1.

When I first started reading this forum in July, I had to go through and read 1,922 messages. It was a daunting task, but I ended up reading all the messages at least twice from start to end, making notes as I did so (the result being what I posted above). I still think it's a worthwhile exercise, but I agree that a newcomer might easily become discouraged from the start, and never attempt this amazing beer. There's such a wealth of information on this forum that I don't think it should so easily be ignored and buried as a result of such volume. The end purpose of all these forums is to pass along our experiences to others, who in turn can provide tips on how to improve the recipe, understanding, or process, so that everyone benefits.

At this time I want to thank CSI for his continual support and incredible contributions to this forum. Thanks also go to saq also for initiating this thread, and providing the first recipe, although unfortunately, he stopped contributing quite some time ago.

I also like the idea of the contents of this thread forming the background to a book especially dedicated to cloning the Westvleteren, and possibly another big Belgian, like Rochefort. I think that CSI would be an ideal author for such an undertaking.
 
I wouldn't recommend that a newcomer attempt to make this beer. It's not an easy beer to just get right unless you have plenty of DME or LME to fix a low extract if going all grain. It's easy to hit target OG with extract, but you don't get the same malty flavors. It's still good beer, just not exactly the same.

The grain bill is simple. Getting the right extract isn't. You need to have all of your variables in check: grist coarseness, PH, mash temp, water volumes, etc... High gravity, all grain beers are tricky and it takes a few attempts to dial them in on beers you haven't done before.
 
I wouldn't recommend that a newcomer attempt to make this beer.

I would agree if it's a new "homebrewer", but there are many experienced "newcomers" that browse through this board. For them, this beer is relatively easy to make. The only somewhat complicated part is the temperature regime, but with a large blow-off tube, blankets, a large tub, and an inexpensive temperature-controlled aquarium heater, it is quite manageable. Much more complicated is making a pilsner.
 
I would agree if it's a new "homebrewer", but there are many experienced "newcomers" that browse through this board. For them, this beer is relatively easy to make. The only somewhat complicated part is the temperature regime, but with a large blow-off tube, blankets, a large tub, and an inexpensive temperature-controlled aquarium heater, it is quite manageable. Much more complicated is making a pilsner.


The bigger question is when are you going to start this new thread so we can take what we've learned and expand on it? Please post a link afterwards. I can also start the new thread if needed and do a little formatting/condensing of the info for a cleaner start. Just let me know.
 
The bigger question is when are you going to start this new thread so we can take what we've learned and expand on it? Please post a link afterwards. I can also start the new thread if needed and do a little formatting/condensing of the info for a cleaner start. Just let me know.

Thanks for the offer, but my understanding is that CSI was going to start the new thread once he has heard back from enough participants as to whether or not they are in favour of it.

If my understanding is incorrect, then I would gladly take you up on your offer.
 
Just a suggestion; since this thread is an important resource to a whole strata of brewers, maybe we can hold out for a week, (until Sat. Nov. 1), to see additional ideas come up for distilling this thread to a new start?
 
Just a suggestion; since this thread is an important resource to a whole strata of brewers, maybe we can hold out for a week, (until Sat. Nov. 1), to see additional ideas come up for distilling this thread to a new start?


Here's one idea, we could just post it in the recipe section with the condensed notes so that it makes it easier for people who want to brew it and continue the discussion here.
 
The repeating issues that may need to be addressed:

1. "Thread is too long and too time consuming to read...I just want to brew this thing without reading a book"
2. "I read half way through and brewed what I thought was the best advice, then I found out that I under-pitched"
3. "There are like 9 different variations of the recipe. Which one is the closest clone to an actual Westvleteren 12?"
4. "Is this thread supposed to be just a great Belgian quad or are we looking to create as close to a Belgian Westy as possible? I'm confused on this."
5. "Can we focus in on brewing the best possible clone first, get that nailed down, then branch off to variations? We can always go back to the reference recipe."
6. "Why is there a kitchen sink recipe with a gob of malts and then one that looks closer to the BLAM spec? Aren't we brewing a Westvleteren 12 clone? One is a clone and one isn't."
7." So why are your guys throwing into the mix a barrel aged version when you know it isn't in the tradition of St. Sixtus? Not to offend anyone but isn't this moving away from the clone idea?"

I agree with every one of these comments. They're focusing us back to a pure clone.

Getting back to a pure clone is a good fix as a baseline of what's been learned over the past 4.5 years. Moving it to a new thread is looking more and more like a remedy. On a new thread anyone reading the first post can find the best clone recipe for the Westvleteren 12 clone at the beginning, then the science of brewing quads properly, then move on to lots of great innovative variations....creativity unimpaired :). It may also free us up from a lot of the repeating questions we see as new posters enter the board. Just a thought.
 
The repeating issues that may need to be addressed:

1. "Thread is too long and too time consuming to read...I just want to brew this thing without reading a book"
2. "I read half way through and brewed what I thought was the best advice, then I found out that I under-pitched"
3. "There are like 9 different variations of the recipe. Which one is the closest clone to an actual Westvleteren 12?"
4. "Is this thread supposed to be just a great Belgian quad or are we looking to create as close to a Belgian Westy as possible? I'm confused on this."
5. "Can we focus in on brewing the best possible clone first, get that nailed down, then branch off to variations? We can always go back to the reference recipe."
6. "Why is there a kitchen sink recipe with a gob of malts and then one that looks closer to the BLAM spec? Aren't we brewing a Westvleteren 12 clone? One is a clone and one isn't."
7." So why are your guys throwing into the mix a barrel aged version when you know it isn't in the tradition of St. Sixtus? Not to offend anyone but isn't this moving away from the clone idea?"

I agree with every one of these comments. They're focusing us back to a pure clone.

Getting back to a pure clone is a good fix. Moving it to a new thread is looking more and more like a remedy. On a new thread anyone reading the first post can find the best clone recipe for the Westvleteren 12 clone at the beginning, then the science of brewing quads properly, then move on to innovative variations....creativity unimpaired :). It may also free us up from a lot of the repeating questions we see as newcomers enter the board. Just a thought.

Great overview, and I heartily agree. One other aspect of the clone that seems a little sparse is an evaluation of the results. A lot of people have made the clone, but very few have come back with an evaluation of the results: how close it was to a true Westy, what seems to be lacking, how it can be adjusted to become closer, etc. I realize that it takes a year to make such an evaluation, but I think many have already made the clone at least a year ago, and others have sampled it along the way.

As I mentioned previously, my clone is still quite young, but having sampled it, it did not taste too close to a Westy. In fact, it tasted much more like a St. Bernardus. I feel it needs a little more "maltiness" or "breadiness", a little less fruit, and a little more of a cinnamon taste. Perhaps aging may change that.
 
Great overview, and I heartily agree. One other aspect of the clone that seems a little sparse is an evaluation of the results. A lot of people have made the clone, but very few have come back with an evaluation of the results: how close it was to a true Westy, what seems to be lacking, how it can be adjusted to become closer, etc. I realize that it takes a year to make such an evaluation, but I think many have already made the cone at least a year ago, and others have sampled it along the way.

As I mentioned previously, my clone is still quite young, but having sampled it, it did not taste too close to a Westy. In fact, it tasted much more like a St. Bernardus. I feel it needs a little more "maltiness" or "breadiness", a little less fruit, and a little more of a cinnamon taste. Perhaps aging may change that.

Yep, concur.
 
I was thinking that adding a little more biscuit malt to the recipe (up to 10% of the grain bill), and/or some Amber and Victory malt, may improve the "malty, bready" taste.

As long as we're still posting on this thread...here goes.

I recently read in an article that "European brewers change their ales starting with method while US brewers change their ales starting with grist." My first reaction to that was something like 'what a crock of stereotypical 'Sh@#'. I won't say which nationality the article was written from since we sell our products all over the EU now. There are a couple of ways to bring out the breadiness in brewing this ale without altering the grist. One is full mash decoction or multiple decoctions. The other is a clear-wort distillation (boil-down).

We order the Westvleteren 12 twice a year from BelgianShop.com to test each of our Westy clones that come of age. The Westvleteren 12 imports, (at least the one's ordered in 2013 and 2014), are not overly bready. In fact, the breadiness is very slight...more the result of toasted/decocted Pils, (than using more bready malts). We set aside the Pale malt altogether for just that reason since the Pale over-emphasized too bready a palate compared to the import. For the most part it worked out well.

Overly fruity Westy clones are usually the result of fermenting at too high a temp too early. An early rise to 80F+ and the fruity esters will dominate from then on. With a full Fix pitch, temp control is necessary to control the metabolic heat produced to keep the ale well under 70F in the first 2-3 days. Controlling the rise steadily from 63F to about 80F over 7 days is almost impossible to do without a night's watch and 24 hour vigil with a cooling hose (as they do as St. Sixtus). We use the Oasis 150/160 on our jacketed test fermenters. This small chilling unit is intended for laser cutters and CNC mills but they also work really well for small batch fermenter temp control. Sometimes you can find them on ebay for $200-$300 each. You can actually use just one across a couple of fermenters. With ramped temp control you'll finish with a balance of mild bread, hint of fresh plums, spice, hops, (hopefully Brewers Gold!), and a subtle candi syrup finish.

Oasis 150 - 1.jpg


Oassis 150 - 2.jpg
 
As long as we're still posting on this thread...here goes.

I recently read in an article that "European brewers change their ales starting with method while US brewers change their ales starting with grist." My first reaction to that was something like 'what a crock of stereotypical 'Sh@#'. I won't say which nationality the article was written from since we sell our products all over the EU now. There are a couple of ways to bring out the breadiness in brewing this ale without altering the grist. One is full mash decoction or multiple decoctions. The other is a clear-wort distillation (boil-down).

We order the Westvleteren 12 twice a year from BelgianShop.com to test each of our Westy clones that come of age. The Westvleteren 12 imports, (at least the one's ordered in 2013 and 2014), are not overly bready. In fact, the breadiness is very slight...more the result of toasted/decocted Pils, (than using more bready malts). We set aside the Pale malt altogether for just that reason since the Pale over-emphasized too bready a palate compared to the import. For the most part it worked out well.

Overly fruity Westy clones are usually the result of fermenting at too high a temp too early. An early rise to 80F+ and the fruity esters will dominate from then on. With a full Fix pitch, temp control is necessary to control the metabolic heat produced to keep the ale well under 70F in the first 2-3 days. Controlling the rise steadily from 63F to about 80F over 7 days is almost impossible to do without a night's watch and 24 hour vigil with a cooling hose (as they do as St. Sixtus). We use the Oasis 150/160 on our jacketed test fermenters. This small chilling unit is intended for laser cutters and CNC mills but they also work really well for small batch fermenter temp control. Sometimes you can find them on ebay for $200-$300 each. You can actually use just one across a couple of fermenters. With ramped temp control you'll finish with a balance of mild bread, hint of fresh plums, spice, hops, (hopefully Brewers Gold!), and a subtle candi syrup finish.

I only wanted to say-wow! What a wealth of information. Makes me want to drop what I am doing and brew another batch.
 
As long as we're still posting on this thread...here goes.

I recently read in an article that "European brewers change their ales starting with method while US brewers change their ales starting with grist." My first reaction to that was something like 'what a crock of stereotypical 'Sh@#'. I won't say which nationality the article was written from since we sell our products all over the EU now. There are a couple of ways to bring out the breadiness in brewing this ale without altering the grist. One is full mash decoction or multiple decoctions. The other is a clear-wort distillation (boil-down).

We order the Westvleteren 12 twice a year from BelgianShop.com to test each of our Westy clones that come of age. The Westvleteren 12 imports, (at least the one's ordered in 2013 and 2014), are not overly bready. In fact, the breadiness is very slight...more the result of toasted/decocted Pils, (than using more bready malts). We set aside the Pale malt altogether for just that reason since the Pale over-emphasized too bready a palate compared to the import. For the most part it worked out well.

Overly fruity Westy clones are usually the result of fermenting at too high a temp too early. An early rise to 80F+ and the fruity esters will dominate from then on. With a full Fix pitch, temp control is necessary to control the metabolic heat produced to keep the ale well under 70F in the first 2-3 days. Controlling the rise steadily from 63F to about 80F over 7 days is almost impossible to do without a night's watch and 24 hour vigil with a cooling hose (as they do as St. Sixtus). We use the Oasis 150/160 on our jacketed test fermenters. This small chilling unit is intended for laser cutters and CNC mills but they also work really well for small batch fermenter temp control. Sometimes you can find them on ebay for $200-$300 each. You can actually use just one across a couple of fermenters. With ramped temp control you'll finish with a balance of mild bread, hint of fresh plums, spice, hops, (hopefully Brewers Gold!), and a subtle candi syrup finish.

Great information! We should move that post to the new thread as well.
 
+1 for a new thread.

I brewed a blend of the "new world" versions this weekend. Pitched Monday night into 63deg wort and am slowly ramping up to 80 by upping the temp every 12 hours (at 67 right now). It's fermenting away nicely and has filled up the cup my blow-off tube terminates in with a thick yeast "cake". It smells exactly like banana LaffyTaffy :ban: - is that normal?

I also just now pitched a pack of roeselare into the other 5 gallons I made. Anyone else done this? it'll be my first sour - I'm really looking forward to it (next Thanksgiving...)
 
As long as we're still posting on this thread...here goes.

I recently read in an article that "European brewers change their ales starting with method while US brewers change their ales starting with grist." My first reaction to that was something like 'what a crock of stereotypical 'Sh@#'. I won't say which nationality the article was written from since we sell our products all over the EU now. There are a couple of ways to bring out the breadiness in brewing this ale without altering the grist. One is full mash decoction or multiple decoctions. The other is a clear-wort distillation (boil-down).

We order the Westvleteren 12 twice a year from BelgianShop.com to test each of our Westy clones that come of age. The Westvleteren 12 imports, (at least the one's ordered in 2013 and 2014), are not overly bready. In fact, the breadiness is very slight...more the result of toasted/decocted Pils, (than using more bready malts). We set aside the Pale malt altogether for just that reason since the Pale over-emphasized too bready a palate compared to the import. For the most part it worked out well.

Overly fruity Westy clones are usually the result of fermenting at too high a temp too early. An early rise to 80F+ and the fruity esters will dominate from then on. With a full Fix pitch, temp control is necessary to control the metabolic heat produced to keep the ale well under 70F in the first 2-3 days. Controlling the rise steadily from 63F to about 80F over 7 days is almost impossible to do without a night's watch and 24 hour vigil with a cooling hose (as they do as St. Sixtus). We use the Oasis 150/160 on our jacketed test fermenters. This small chilling unit is intended for laser cutters and CNC mills but they also work really well for small batch fermenter temp control. Sometimes you can find them on ebay for $200-$300 each. You can actually use just one across a couple of fermenters. With ramped temp control you'll finish with a balance of mild bread, hint of fresh plums, spice, hops, (hopefully Brewers Gold!), and a subtle candi syrup finish.

Whats wrong with using a brewPi or STC 1000 to control fermentation temperature?

I've read nearly all of this thread over the last two days and have to say it is one of the most informative I have ever come across. It's a good read and doesn't take too long. I have learnt a lot about all aspects of brewing, particularly Belgian beers of which I'm a great fan. I am now planning to brew my own Westvleteren 12 clone very soon!

Many thanks to saq and CSI in particular and also to Bottoms Up for his fantastic summary, although I'm not sure how much sense it will make to anyone who hasn't actually read any of the thread?

I was also fascinated to read the development of Candi Syrup through the pages of this thread, it sounded like a fun journey. By the way CSI what on earth do you do with all your test batches, you seem to have made an awful lot of beer?!

Cheers
 

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