Bru'n Water predicted 5.41, I ended up at 5.13. What did I do???

I brewed a mild ale yesterday and had a totally unexpected result on my pH. The grain bill was:

8 lb 9 oz Maris Otter
2 lb 10.3 oz Crystal 60
10.6 oz Chocolate malt

10 gallon batch size with expected OG of 1.037. Mashed at 1.4 qts. per lb.

In DI water, Bru'n water predicted a pH of 5.1 with no additions. I did a 1 lb. test mash in 1.4 quarts of DI water and came up with 5.09 pH. I was pretty confident at this point.

So I built up water using the mild ale profile in Bru'n Water and used this:

Reaper's Dark Mild

Starting Profile ppm
Ca 0
Mg 0
Na 0
SO4 0
Cl 0
HCO3 1

Finished Profile ppm
Ca 87
Mg 3
Na 21
SO4 40
Cl 58
HCO3 183

Hardness 227 (ppm as CaCO3)
Alkalinity 151 (ppm as CaCO3)
RA 88
SO4/Cl 0.69

Batch Volume 10.00 Gallons
Total Mash 4.21 Gallons
Mash Dilution 4.21 Gallons
Total Sparge 10.13 Gallons
Sparge Dilution 10.13 Gallons

Mineral Additions Mash (g) Sparge (g)
Gypsum . 0.8 2.0
Epsom Salt 0.4 1.0
Canning Salt 0.8 2.0
Baking Soda 0.0
Calcium Chloride 0.8 2.0
Chalk . 0.0
Pickling Lime 1.8
Mag Chloride 0.0 0.0

Bru'n Water predicted 5.41 pH using these additions. I checked the pH at 5 minutes into my mash and got a reading of 5.09. Because of the wild difference, I didn't panic and figured I had something wrong with my measurement. I recalibrated the meter and checked the mash again at 15 minutes. It was 5.11. I checked the meter against the 4.01 solution and it read 4.02. I'm new to this, but I'm fairly confident in my testing procedure, so I don't think it was a meter problem. At 60 minutes, the mash measured 5.13.

So I figure something must have been wrong with my additions. What could I have done to have an actual reading this far off from what I was hoping for? Did I mis-measure one of my brewing salts?

Probably not coincidentally, I undershot my expected gravity by 4 points (1.033 instead of 1.037), which wouldn't be a big deal if my beer were a high gravity beer, but with this style, 4 points is a lot. I always either overshoot or hit my numbers dead on. I'm guessing that the low pH affected my efficiency.

Why did you do the test mash with DI water rather than your "adjusted" water? Admirably you did a test mash but if you had used your "adjusted" water in the test mash, the low pH situation in the actual mash could have been discovered.

Edit: The reason I ask is if you measured out your additions accurately it may be that the predicted pH just didn't line up with your actual mash pH and there was nothing you did to cause that.

There is probably a standard purity assay for lime. In the meantime, add a few drops of acid to your pickling lime. Does it fizz? Where did you get it? Grocery store pickling brand?

IKR said:

Why did you do the test mash with DI water rather than your "adjusted" water? Admirably you did a test mash but if you had used your "adjusted" water in the test mash, the low pH situation in the actual mash could have been discovered.

Edit: The reason I ask is if you measured out your additions accurately it may be that the predicted pH just didn't line up with your actual mash pH and there was nothing you did to cause that.

Click to expand...

Now that you ask this, I remember something. I did the test mash without any pickling lime, but I had measured out the pickling lime to add after I mashed in so I could test the pH before and after. I added the pickling lime after 5 minutes, but there was no change to the pH. At the time, I figured that the problem was that my scale reads to .1 gram, but that it was difficult to get a reading on the scale for just .1 gram, which is what the 1 pound test mash called for to get the pH up to 5.4. Now that you ask, it could be that I measured correctly for the test mash but that the lime wasn't effective.

My pickling lime is a grocery store brand. Does it go bad? How would I test it?

Hmm? That Reaper's Mild recipe is one that I've brewed before and it is one of the most acidic grists I've experienced. It is one of the data points that ultimately helped calibrate the pH prediction model in Bru'n Water.

It is very odd that the measured pH was substantially lower than the prediction. As others on this list have reported, there is no way that the pH should end up this low. However as the OP and I have found, they are wrong. Everyone says that Bru'n Water predicts an overly low pH, so there must be something wrong with the lime used. As Pushrods suggests, I suspect that the lime may be off. A test of the lime can be performed by putting drops of acid on a small amount of the lime. If the mixture fizzes, the lime is bad...some of the lime has converted to chalk. As some folks have heard me say, chalk is a poor alkalinity producer since it doesn't properly dissolve in the timeframe we brewers need it to work in.

I look forward to hearing the OP's findings.

CadiBrewer said:

I brewed a mild ale yesterday and had a totally unexpected result on my pH. The grain bill was:

8 lb 9 oz Maris Otter
2 lb 10.3 oz Crystal 60
10.6 oz Chocolate malt

10 gallon batch size with expected OG of 1.037. Mashed at 1.4 qts. per lb.

In DI water, Bru'n water predicted a pH of 5.1 with no additions. I did a 1 lb. test mash in 1.4 quarts of DI water and came up with 5.09 pH. I was pretty confident at this point.

Click to expand...

Confronted with a situation like this the first question one asks is "Are those numbers reasonable?" I realize that as a relative newcomer to all this that isn't an easy question to answer. But that's what those of us with more experience are here for.

Maris Otter is a fairly dark "pale" malt with a DI mash pH of about 5.6. I don't know what its effective buffering capacity is but something like -40 mEq/kg-pH wouldn't be attypical. Based on this it is going to take a fair amount of acid, something like 104 mEq to move 8-1/2 lbs of it to pH 5.1 - the prediction we are checking. That's a lot to ask of the quantities of chocolate and caramel you have specified which, together, to 5.1, might be expected to supply a bit less than half the required amounts. So unless you have super caramel and super chocolate malts that are twice as acidic as typical examples of those malts or a base malt with half the buffering capacity of a typical base malt 5.1 does not seem like a reasonable mash pH. A more reasonable number would be near 5.3

We have to put against this, of course, the fact that you got a confirmatory test mash pH. So we are suspicious of the prediction and the measurement at this point though we recognize that it is possible to have a pH this low for a mash of this composition with DI water. That's what experience would tell you at this point - that you should be suspicious. The response to this suspicion would involve recalibration of the pH meter, calibration checks and repeated measurements on the test mash, individual measurement of the the three malts to see if their DI pH's fit expectations....

CadiBrewer said:

So I built up water using the mild ale profile in Bru'n Water and used this:

Reaper's Dark Mild

Starting Profile ppm
Ca 0
Mg 0
Na 0
SO4 0
Cl 0
HCO3 1

Finished Profile ppm
Ca 87
Mg 3
Na 21
SO4 40
Cl 58
HCO3 183

Click to expand...

Your water after the addition of the salts you used contains NO bicarbonate. Bru'n water insists on using bicarbonate as a proxy for alkalinity. As we see here it isn't and the program should be fixed. This has been discussed at length before.

CadiBrewer said:

Hardness 227 (ppm as CaCO3)
Alkalinity 151 (ppm as CaCO3)


Mineral Additions Mash (g) Sparge (g)
Gypsum . 0.8 2.0
Epsom Salt 0.4 1.0
Canning Salt 0.8 2.0
Baking Soda 0.0
Calcium Chloride 0.8 2.0
Chalk . 0.0
Pickling Lime 1.8
Mag Chloride 0.0 0.0

Bru'n Water predicted 5.41 pH using these additions.

Click to expand...

Now that is a reasonable mash pH prediction with the salt additions you have made. The DI mash calculated 5.29 and adding the salts and lime you used gives 5.43. So now suspicion reigns again. You got a prediction that seems reasonable when the salts are included and one that doesn't for a DI mash. Even though the with salts prediction is reasonable...

CadiBrewer said:

I checked the pH at 5 minutes into my mash and got a reading of 5.09. Because of the wild difference, I didn't panic and figured I had something wrong with my measurement. I recalibrated the meter and checked the mash again at 15 minutes. It was 5.11. I checked the meter against the 4.01 solution and it read 4.02. I'm new to this, but I'm fairly confident in my testing procedure, so I don't think it was a meter problem. At 60 minutes, the mash measured 5.13.

Click to expand...

...you get a pH meter reading which conflicts with that reasonable prediction. You did the right thing in recalibrating and checking the 4 buffer after the recal so at this point we are pretty mystified. The buffer? Was it fresh? Not past its expiry date? Never been used before?

CadiBrewer said:

So I figure something must have been wrong with my additions. What could I have done to have an actual reading this far off from what I was hoping for? Did I mis-measure one of my brewing salts?

Click to expand...

As it would be unusual to obtain a reading this low with no lime let alone with lime the only salt measurement error we can conceive is if you added 5 times as much calcium as you intended to.

I'll just point out that when people start making a new measurement (pH in this case) mysterious things happen that just stop happening as experience is gained with the new technique/equipment etc. So hang in there.

No one has asked a major question......

At what temperature are you testing Ph? Room temp sample or 120f+ &/ or mash temp?

A Gold Star for ITsPossible!

ITsPossible said:

No one has asked a major question......

At what temperature are you testing Ph? Room temp sample or 120f+ &/ or mash temp?

Click to expand...

Thanks for the input. The tests have all been at room temperature.

ajdelange said:

Confronted with a situation like this the first question one asks is "Are those numbers reasonable?" I realize that as a relative newcomer to all this that isn't an easy question to answer. But that's what those of us with more experience are here for.
...I'll just point out that when people start making a new measurement (pH in this case) mysterious things happen that just stop happening as experience is gained with the new technique/equipment etc. So hang in there.

Click to expand...

I checked my lime last night and with a few drops of 10% Phosphoric acid, and the lime fizzed. I suspect that is the problem with the pH readings being the same both before and after the salt additions. I have a clean, unopened bag of lime that I'll use again on a test mash and see what happens.

As for the low pH readings on the DI test mash and on the real thing, my calibration solutions were both new and opened freshly for the test mash. They are a brand that I'm not used to, called General Hydroponics. They are not past their expiration date, so I don't think that's the problem. I do store them in a hot, Southern California garage which can't be optimal, so I'll start with fresh solutions and begin storing that kind of thing in the house from here on out.

I'm interested in learning more about this conundrum, so I intend to not only run a test mash with my grain bill in DI water, but I intend to add the lime and other salts to see what my end result is. I also intend to mash a small amount of each of the three grains separately in DI water so I can find the DI pH of each. I hope that this will lead to learning, as well as practice with all of my techniques.

Question for AJ - is there a standard for the amount of grain and water to use for the three separate grains when I do test mashes on each? For my test mashes, I use my normal rate of about 1.3 quarts per pound, but for discerning the DI pH of various grains in the Water book, what was the "standard"? Secondly, is there a way to estimate the buffering capacity of the Maris Otter without having access to lab grade equipment?

I appreciate all of the help given here.

CadiBrewer said:

I checked my lime last night and with a few drops of 10% Phosphoric acid, and the lime fizzed. I suspect that is the problem with the pH readings being the same both before and after the salt additions. I have a clean, unopened bag of lime that I'll use again on a test mash and see what happens.

Click to expand...

I'm only mentioning this because you say you are new to all this but are you sure you bought lime i.e. slaked lime = Ca(OH)2, and not crushed limestone = CaCO3? Lime is made from limestone by heating to drive off the CO2:
CaCO3 --> CaO + CO2
and then adding water
CaO + H2O --> Ca(OH)2
Obviously if the first reaction doesn't go to completion there will be some limestone left in the quicklime and that will still be there after slaking. I would think that the amount of unconverted limestone would be small i.e. it shouldn't fizz much.

The other mechanism by which calcium carbonate could get into lime would be if the lime got wet. Then the CO2 in the air could neutralize some of it to calcium bicarbonate

Ca(OH)2 + 2CO2 + H2O ---> Ca++ + 2(OH)- + 2H+ + 2HCO3- --> 2H2O + Ca++ 2HCO3-

As the water dries CO2 exits and CaCO3 precipitates. I wouldn't expect much of this to go on either.

Trying to think of a simple test you could do on the stuff. If you put 100 mg (0.1 gram) of calcium carbonate in 1 L of water it won't dissolve. If you measure the P alkalinity of that liter of water (the amount of 1 N acid you must add to it to get the pH to 8.3 adding the acid slowly enough to dissolve the CaCO3) you will find that 2 mL are required (the alkalinity is 100 ppm as CaCO3).

If you put 100 mg Ca(OH2) in 1 L of water it will dissolve (use room temp water in both cases). It will take 2.70 mL of acid to raise pH to 8.3 (the alkalinity is 135 ppm as CaCO3).

A P alkalinity close to 100 suggests mostly CaCO3. A P alkalinity close to 135 suggests mostly Ca(OH)2.

1 N acid can be obtained from water test supply houses like Hach.

CadiBrewer said:

As for the low pH readings on the DI test mash and on the real thing, my calibration solutions were both new and opened freshly for the test mash. They are a brand that I'm not used to, called General Hydroponics. They are not past their expiration date, so I don't think that's the problem. I do store them in a hot, Southern California garage which can't be optimal, so I'll start with fresh solutions and begin storing that kind of thing in the house from here on out.

Click to expand...

We do sometimes have to grasp at straws.

CadiBrewer said:

I'm interested in learning more about this conundrum, so I intend to not only run a test mash with my grain bill in DI water, but I intend to add the lime and other salts to see what my end result is. I also intend to mash a small amount of each of the three grains separately in DI water so I can find the DI pH of each. I hope that this will lead to learning, as well as practice with all of my techniques.

Click to expand...

That's the spirit!

CadiBrewer said:

Question for AJ - is there a standard for the amount of grain and water to use for the three separate grains when I do test mashes on each? For my test mashes, I use my normal rate of about 1.3 quarts per pound, but for discerning the DI pH of various grains in the Water book, what was the "standard"?

Click to expand...

For the measurements for the book I used 40 grams of finely ground malt (Waring spice blender) with 100 mL of DI water. If the water is DI the water to grist ratio does not matter much (within reason). When water other than DI water is being used i.e. if the water has finite alkalinity then the ratio does matter as the proton deficit attributable to the water alkalinity depends of the volume of water.

CadiBrewer said:

Secondly, is there a way to estimate the buffering capacity of the Maris Otter without having access to lab grade equipment?

Click to expand...

Yes. All you need is your pH meter and an accurate means for measuring calibrated acid which, as mentioned above, you can buy for Hach. Kai did a lot of such measurements using hardware store hydrochloric acid but that's not very robust.

In a nutshell you make a test mash with a pre-measured amount of acid and measure the steady state (or specified time) pH of the test mash. If 5 mL of 0.1 N acid moved the pH of 40 grams of Maris Otter from pH 5.6 to pH 5.2 then the buffering capacity is (5 mL)*(0.1 mEq/ml)*(1000 g/kg)/(40g)/(5.6 - 5.2) = (0.5)*(25)/(0.4) = 31.25 mEq/kg-pH. That is the average buffering capacity for a move to pH 5.2. The buffering capacity may actually be a bit different than this average because malts' titration curves are not linear. See the article at http://wetnewf.org/pdfs/estimating-mash-ph.html for details on how to estimate mash pH which includes details on how to make the measurements. I used 'lab grade equipment' to measure acid amounts but a syringe will do nearly as well.

ajdelange said:

Your water after the addition of the salts you used contains NO bicarbonate. Bru'n water insists on using bicarbonate as a proxy for alkalinity. As we see here it isn't and the program should be fixed. This has been discussed at length before.

Click to expand...

This may be a stupid question, but I am new to building my water from RO/DI (Only 2 batches on DI water).

Does this mean I should be adding some Sodium Bicarbonate (Just a little) in addition to my other salts when building my water to aid in the alkalinity calculations working out and being a better prediction of the mash pH.

My last brew, I didn't use any sodium bicarbonate and the mash pH worked out very very close to what Bru'n water predicted.(My post on mash pH results)

My last brew, I didn't use any sodium bicarbonate and the mash pH worked out very very close to what Bru'n water predicted.

Click to expand...

Only use baking soda or pickling lime (please skip the chalk) when your predicted (or measured) mash pH is below your desired mash pH. I also use RO water, and brew both pale hoppy and dark malty beers. Occasionally, I need a very small baking soda addition when I have chosen a very hard water profile for an IPA, especially where I am pushing sulfate over 300 ppm, to stay in the 5.4 range. This simply brings my mash pH back up, where the mineral additions (and resulting calcium) will tend to drive mash pH down. With darker beers, particularly those with large amounts of crystal, caramel or roasts, I need larger amounts of alkalinity - as those particular malts drive mash pH lower, and I would like to target (generally) a higher mash pH such as 5.5 - 5.6 to enhance the malt character.

I do not see any point in trying to match either the bicarbonate levels, alkalinity or RA of a given target profile. We have a strong advantage with RO in that we will usually need very little acid or alkalinity to hit mash pH. Alkalinity primarily drives your mash pH, and it is the priority (IMO) target during the mash. Once that estimate is set, then 'seasoning' with our desired levels of sodium, magnesium, chloride and sulfate -ions is the second or distant third priority... and they will require you to further fine tune the acid/alkaline adjustment to hit the target mash pH.

Remember - you should not add liquid acid and an alkaline (baking soda, lime) addition into the mash together. Use either acid to lower mash pH or alkaline to raise it, measure to confirm. Using both defeats the purpose of managing alkalinity, and can result in undesired ions and/or trying to chase your mash pH on brew day. If you make an addition into the mash (I dissolve all additions into the strike water), do everything possible to ensure even and consistent distribution. It may require an additional liquor infusion, after/during very vigorous stirring to prevent your mash temperature from falling too far.

CyclingCraig said:

Does this mean I should be adding some Sodium Bicarbonate (Just a little) in addition to my other salts when building my water to aid in the alkalinity calculations working out and being a better prediction of the mash pH.

Click to expand...

No, it simply means that calling alkalinity 'bicarbonate' isn't a very good idea. Calling it 'alkalinity as bicarbonate' would be a little better and calling it 'alkalinity as CaCO3' a little better than that. Calling it alkalinity in units of milliequivalent per liter is best of all because that it what it really is. 'As CaCO3' at least has historical precedence in North America but is confusing enough.

After seeing this post, I had a similar result on my last brew. I brewed a Chocolate Milk stout for the second time and used the same exact salt additions as the last (first was brewed literally 6 weeks ago) and my mash pH came in a full point and a half lower. First came in at 5.61 and this one came in at 5.46. So I grabbed my pickling lime (Mrs. Wages) and put a few drops of 75% phosphoric acid on it and it fizzed a tiny bit, not much at all. Does that mean my pickling lime is bad? I did open it for the first time on the first Chocolate stout, and it has been sealed in a air conditioned cabinet since. Also I brew with 100% RODI water.
Should I get a different type of lime?

Kind of off topic, but I noticed Brun water over shoots acid addtitions, more so than other water calculators. I was ending up to low on my pH if putting the entire amount of acid it called for. I like the layout and think it is one of the best, but I just have to double check my numbers with others and kind of split the difference.

GotPushrods said:

There is probably a standard purity assay for lime. In the meantime, add a few drops of acid to your pickling lime. Does it fizz? Where did you get it? Grocery store pickling brand?

Click to expand...

Can one use 88% lactic acid for this test? Anyone know how long pickling lime is good for after the package is opened? I checked my pickling lime bag and there is no expiration date on it.

Is there a reason to NOT just put the lime into some water and see if it raises the pH instead of dropping acid onto it? I mean if you want to know if it will raise your pH that is the way I would think to approach it.

CyclingCraig said:

Can one use 88% lactic acid for this test? Anyone know how long pickling lime is good for after the package is opened? I checked my pickling lime bag and there is no expiration date on it.

Click to expand...

Any acid whose normality you know with respect to whatever pH you decide to titrate to will do. 88% lactic acid is included if you can assay it. This is doable but somewhere along the line you will have to obtain standard something and that might as well be the acid you are going to titrate with. For the simple 'if it doesn't fizz appreciably it's more than 90% lime' test you don't need to assay. Lactic acid or vinegar would do for that.

Hermit said:

Is there a reason to NOT just put the lime into some water and see if it raises the pH instead of dropping acid onto it? I mean if you want to know if it will raise your pH that is the way I would think to approach it.

Click to expand...

Calcium carbonate reacts slowly and this has been offered as a suggestion as to why the 'lime' addition was not effective i.e. it contains mostly calcium carbonate instead of mostly calcium hydroxide. The fizz test is suggested as a way of getting a rough idea as to how much calcium carbonate might be in one's 'lime'. The titration I described in a previous post might help to quantify the actual amount but would still be rather rough.

ajdelange said:

I'm only mentioning this because you say you are new to all this but are you sure you bought lime i.e. slaked lime = Ca(OH)2, and not crushed limestone = CaCO3? .

Click to expand...

What I have is called Mrs. Wages Pickling Lime and the only ingredient listed is calcium hydroxide. I can only assume what I have is correct.

I have more data and it isn't helping me figure out the problem. I figured my lime was bad, so I went forward with a rebrew on Sunday of the same beer, except I refigured my salts with baking soda instead of lime. Here is the water that I went with:

Reaper's Dark Mild

Starting Profile ppm
Ca 0
Mg 0
Na 0
SO4 0
Cl 0
HCO3 1

Finished Profile ppm
Ca 48
Mg 3
Na 17
SO4 40
Cl 64
HCO3 153

Hardness 131 (ppm as CaCO3)
Alkalinity 127 (ppm as CaCO3)
RA 91
SO4/Cl 0.62

Batch Volume 10.00 Gallons
Total Mash 4.21 Gallons
Mash Dilution 4.21 Gallons
Total Sparge 10.13 Gallons
Sparge Dilution 10.13 Gallons

Mineral Additions Mash (g) Sparge (g)
Gypsum . 0.8 2.0
Epsom Salt 0.4 1.0
Canning Salt 0.0 0.0
Baking Soda 3.4
Calcium Chloride 2.1 5.1
Chalk . 0.0
Pickling Lime 0.0
Mag Chloride 0.0 0.0

I mashed in, stirred like crazy, and checked the pH at 5 minutes. Instead of 5.45 as predicted in Bru'n Water, it measured, wait for it, wait for it, 5.19!?!?!?! I'm totally lost now. I waited until minute 20, checked again, and it was 5.19. I added .9 grams of baking soda for kicks and giggles, and ended up at 5.23.

Tonight I checked the pH of my three malts in RO water. I used a coffee grinder to grind 40 grams of each of the malts, and mashed them in 100 ml of water for about 15 minutes. The Maris Otter came out at 5.54, the crystal 55l came out at 4.60, and the chocolate malt came out at 4.49. I checked my meter in 4.01 calibration solution between each test and it hit 4.01 or 4.02 each time.

Can someone shed some light on where I might be going wrong? Help! And sorry for the long post.

CadiBrewer said:

What I have is called Mrs. Wages Pickling Lime and the only ingredient listed is calcium hydroxide. I can only assume what I have is correct.

Click to expand...

The fact that it fizzed says that there is a fair amount of calcium carbonate in there.

CadiBrewer said:

I have more data and it isn't helping me figure out the problem. I figured my lime was bad, so I went forward with a rebrew on Sunday of the same beer, except I refigured my salts with baking soda instead of lime.

Click to expand...

I'm not really sure you have a problem.

CadiBrewer said:

I mashed in, stirred like crazy, and checked the pH at 5 minutes. Instead of 5.45 as predicted in Bru'n Water, it measured, wait for it, wait for it, 5.19!?!?!?! I'm totally lost now. I waited until minute 20, checked again, and it was 5.19. I added .9 grams of baking soda for kicks and giggles, and ended up at 5.23.


Tonight I checked the pH of my three malts in RO water. I used a coffee grinder to grind 40 grams of each of the malts, and mashed them in 100 ml of water for about 15 minutes. The Maris Otter came out at 5.54, the crystal 55l came out at 4.60, and the chocolate malt came out at 4.49.

Click to expand...

If I take your DI mash pH's and assign buffering capacities at the low ends of what I have actually measured for similar malts I get a mash pH prediction of 5.22 which isn't that far off from what you observed. Furthermore, if I add the 0.9 gram of bicarbonate I get an estimate of 5.28 which is 0.06 higher and that compares more or less to your observed increase of 0.04.

Of course I can get any answer I want by jiggling the numbers that model the malts but at least the DI mash pH number is solid.

The 'problem' that you are experiencing is that Bru'n water doesn't model the malts you are actually using very well and it can't possibly as it has no place for you to enter the actual malt parameters. My spreadsheet doesn't model the actual malts you are using very well either because while it has a place for the actual malt parameters to be put in I don't have 3 of the four - only the DI mash pH - parameters required. To get these 3 you would have to do a much more extensive set of measurements on each of the malts. The procedure is spelled out at http://wetnewf.org/pdfs/estimating-mash-ph.html (you have to read down to the end) and if you check this out I think you will conclude that a test mash is a much easier way to go.

CadiBrewer said:

I checked my meter in 4.01 calibration solution between each test and it hit 4.01 or 4.02 each time.

Click to expand...

Good practice but by now you should have gained confidence in your meter.

CadiBrewer said:

Can someone shed some light on where I might be going wrong?

Click to expand...

I hope I have. In summary, I don't think you are going wrong other than in expecting a spreadsheet to come up with an accurate prediction. Often they do but sometimes they don't. People need to understand this.

Another brewer recently performed a test of how well he could distribute water additions when they were added to the mash. He confirmed by collecting pH samples via a long pipette and temperature checks with a long stem thermometer that regardless of how well he stirred the mash, there were still variations.

This is one of the strongest reasons why I recommend that brewers add all of their minerals and acids to the mashing water BEFORE adding the grist. This enables the brewer to completely mix and distribute those components into the water COMPLETELY. Don't listen to anyone that says that minerals like gypsum or calcium chloride don't dissolve well in water and that you should add them to the mash. Wrong! Those minerals are COMPLETELY soluble in water at the typical concentrations we brewers use. It may just take a few minutes for them to fully dissolve. Keep stirring and they will dissolve!

The mineral that might be questionable for adding to the water before the grist, is lime. That is because of its ability to raise the pH very high and cause calcium in the water to precipitate out of solution as chalk. That is not a good thing. However, if you are starting with low alkalinity water, it probably also has little calcium. You might be able to get away with adding the lime (or a portion of it) to the water prior to adding the grist and having a better distribution of its ions in the mashing water.

I have to admit that I add my lime to my mash after adding my grist. However, I use a RIMS and the flow of wort through the grist is very effective at mixing and distributing the ions throughout the mash. For brewers using a static mash, one option is to vorlauf the wort through the mash for a few minutes to help distribute the ions more evenly. Doing that step in addition to mixing may help avoid incomplete distribution of the minerals.

Thanks Martin and AJ for the patience and the help. Test mashes from here on out for new (to me) recipes.

One last question - Because I have been so confounded by this particular mash, I scoured my inputs on Martin's spreadsheets to make sure there wasn't a data entry error. When I was playing around with the water additions, I noticed that specifically for the sodium column, the amounts in the Water Additions area in ppm don't add up to what is above in the finished water profile ppm. The other mineral additions all add up. Is that correct or do I have a bug in the spreadsheet?