Brewing TV - 10 - Cascadian Dark Ale Debate

In this week's episode we ask ourselves: What's in a name? There's a big debate going on right now in the worlds of homebrewing and craft beer. It involves a new-ish style some are calling Cascadian Dark Ale, some are calling Black IPA and some are calling, well, you'll see...

Join us as we attempt to shine a light into this Dark space.

http://www.brewingtv.com/episodes/2010/7/7/btv-10-cascadian-dark-ale-debate.html

All for brew, brew for all.

I vote Cascadian Dark Ale. If Cascadia becomes a country, I am moving there. BIPA is stupid (it isn't pale), the American Style India Black ale or whatever is also dumb....what does it have to do with India? The beer is known for american hops (many varieties grown in cascadia)....

I am all for regional strength in styles. What is Colorado without the Amber Ale?

They said one important thing IMO: whatever you call it: CDA, Black IPA, "American Style India Black Ale" (what?!!!), it is exiting to witness a birth of a new style

I like India Dark Ale.

I like American Dark Ale. CDA is cool sounding, and I understand the votes against it. Black pale is stoopid.

Cascadian Dark Ale. Credit where it's due.

Anyone get the July/August issue of Brew Your Own? They have an article about this new style (whatever name you want to call it) with several recipes from different brewers. Big beer- high alcohol, high IBUs... definitely a bad boy.

I have 7 gallons of my Black Moriah that started fermenting three hours after pitching last evening! 1.092 OH YES. Very hoppy (114 IBU) without a big malt background. After understanding the reasoning, I too like the Cascadian style name.

+ 1 for CDA, sounds cool and the region where it was born should get a lil credit. Either way it is a great beer and I hope the style sticks around for a long time

Pilgarlic said:

Cascadian Dark Ale. Credit where it's due.

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If the concern is credit where it's due, the right name would be Green Mountain Dark Ale or New England Dark Ale or something like that. The style was invented and commercially popularized in Vermont (Greg Noonan was brewing them in the late 1980s or early 1990s).

Several of the Vermont brew pubs and breweries were making them in the early/mid 2000s, and they'd spread across the neighboring region before they started showing up very much out west--I remember drinking them in Maine at one of the Portland brew pubs c.1996ish.

See, e.g., Shaun Hill's remembrance at http://hillfarmstead.com/wpblog/2009/11/23/a-quiet-return-home/

Just a few weeks back I was contacted by Mitch Steele (brewmaster of Stone Brewing Co.) because back in the spring of 2006 he had tasted his ‘first’ black ipa – Darkside from The Shed Brewery. He is conducting some research into the India Pale Ale category and I had to inform him that my own inspiration for the beer had come from [John] Kimmich at the Alchemist… whose own inspiration had come from brewing Blackwatch IPA at Vermont Pub and Brewery in the mid 90s… a recipe that John had ‘resurrected’ from Noonan’s archives from the early days at VPB. Three breweries in Vermont had created black IPAs by the end of 2005

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There's a lot more detail in there, but the (lamentably late) Greg Noonan deserves credit for coming up with the style at the Vermont Pub and Brewhouse.

I would hate to be so rigid, but I think that as brewers (ie scientists and artists) we can use the Cascadian and Inida(n) (or Noonanian, if you'd like) descriptors interchangeably to denote the emphasis of hops in any style like we do with the "double" and "Imperial" monikers (and Baltic to a lesser degree) to denote a higher OG. The difference is balance. You would use the term Imperial to indicate balance between higher OG and higher IBU, or Cascadian/India/Noonanian to indicate an imbalanced emphasis on hops. A west coast ale could be a Cascadian Red or Amber, an American Brown could be an India Brown Ale. But...whatever happened to the "Texas" Brown Ale or "Texas Style" Brown Ale, anyway? Did we "Americanize" that, too?

American style lager (no hop low malt characteristics) denotes something very different than American Amber Ale (any level of hop or malt characteristics that is red or ambered color) and different again American Pale Ale (Paler than English, but just as or more hop character)....American doesn't mean anything cohesive when describing them and seems to be a cop out of the BCJP folks. The term American (in its broadest sense) hardly describes anything except country of origin....we should limit its use in style naming of new beers. Likewise, if a new style emerges from England, we should probably avoid using English as a main descriptor, but rather, focus on some specific region or other ingredient/processed based description. (the ISS gravitational free ale is one I would like to volunteer to brew...cascadian or otherwise).

While I am on the rant, I would use the term Steam to describe any lager brewed at ale temps if it wasn't trademarked, but otherwise California Common is a great substitute style name.....it describes where the practice was commonplace (even if it was or wasn't invented there). Regional styles (especially our American ones) are very important and should be recognized....even if they are popularized as a matter of preference and we can brew them anywhere.

Calling this new style "Cascadian" would be a snubb to one of our great craft brew pioneers, Greg Noonan. It's well documented that this style was being brewed in the New England region as early as the mid 80s. I drank several pints with Greg himself sometime in 86/87...many other breweries and homebrewers in New England were inspired by his delicious hoppy dark ale.
It seem "Arcadian Dark Ale" might be more appropriate. How about Vermont Black Ale? Or maybe just Black Ale? Whatever it ends up being called, let's remember who to thank!

Pilgarlic said:

Cascadian Dark Ale. Credit where it's due.

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Do you enjoy doing a disservice to history?

babalu87 said:

Do you enjoy doing a disservice to history?

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Obviously doesnt know his history....

History is written by the Conquerors (smile).

warriorpoet said:

History is written by the Conquerors (smile).

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Problem is YOU didnt conquer ****

Have you ever even brewed one let alone taste a REAL ONE

why, yes babalu87, I have tasted one...or two even. I didn't say I conquered anything. I brew my Black Moria Double Black IPA which has even been approved tasting-wise by pro brewers. Also baba, what is real? Lighten up.

Rather than attributing the style to where it was created, why not name it after the cradle of North American beer civilization?

Cascadia has the cleanest water and contains some of the most prolific hop production centers in the world (Washington's Yakima Valley, Oregon's Willamette Valley, Idaho's Treasure Valley, and Idaho's Boundary County). Portland and Seattle have absurdly high breweries-per-capita and the brews within the Cascadia region are of VERY high quality. Craft brew is widely available in grocery stores and gas stations.

Name the style after Cascadia NOT because it "comes" from there or because it's very popular there, but name it after the region as a TRIBUTE.

Also, the tongue-in-cheek nature of the Cascadia secession movement epitomizes the essential quality of beer and brewing: FUN!

alexdagrate said:

Rather than attributing the style to where it was created, why not name it after the cradle of North American beer civilization?

Cascadia has the cleanest water and contains some of the most prolific hop production centers in the world (Washington's Yakima Valley, Oregon's Willamette Valley, Idaho's Treasure Valley, and Idaho's Boundary County). Portland and Seattle have absurdly high breweries-per-capita and the brews within the Cascadia region are of VERY high quality. Craft brew is widely available in grocery stores and gas stations.

Name the style after Cascadia NOT because it "comes" from there or because it's very popular there, but name it after the region as a TRIBUTE.

Also, the tongue-in-cheek nature of the Cascadia secession movement epitomizes the essential quality of beer and brewing: FUN!

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Yeah, craft brew is only available in grocery stores and gas stations in Cascadia.

Scooby_Brew said:

They said one important thing IMO: whatever you call it: CDA, Black IPA, "American Style India Black Ale" (what?!!!), it is exiting to witness a birth of a new style

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It was exciting!

We need another one of these threads?

alexdagrate said:

Portland and Seattle have absurdly high breweries-per-capita

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Not compared to the northern New England states, they don't. Brewing is an institution there. Portland, Maine has 1 brewery per 6,400 residents, nearly twice as many per capita as Portland, Oregon's 1-per-12,600 residents. Vermont has the most breweries per capita of any state in the nation. It's a fairly long history, too, as far as American craft brewing goes; Geary's in Maine is older than any craft brewery in Oregon.

It's definitely worth travelling some time. The Pacific Northwest has some really great beers, but they don't own American brewing. Obviously Socal has a lot going on and the midwest has a ton of great beers, but the southeast also has a lot of great brews being made these days. Heck, I've had some neat sours coming out of New Mexico in recent months.

remilard said:

Yeah, craft brew is only available in grocery stores and gas stations in Cascadia.

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I noticed you didn't sarcastically say:

"Yeah, ALL of the hops I buy commercially are from Cascadia."

Hmm, why is that?

alexdagrate said:

I noticed you didn't sarcastically say:

"Yeah, ALL of the hops I buy commercially are from Cascadia."

Hmm, why is that?

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You've had a rough time in this thread making wrong statements so I hate to pile on but:

I wouldn't say that because it isn't true. Many of the hops I purchase commercially are from Wisconsin, the UK and Europe. Many of from the PNW as well.

SumnerH said:

It's definitely worth travelling some time. The Pacific Northwest has some really great beers, but they don't own American brewing.

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I completely agree and would never want to imply such a thing.

However, this region's beer culture is unique. It's tied to the land. The hops are grown here.

This sort of thread always up being a war of attrition, with different regionalist trying to out-do each other in thinking of someone who brewed this first. Look, if it all comes down to "who made a hoppy black beer with thin mouthfeel," then it's a Burtonian Dark Ale. Yup, the guys who invented IPA also invented Black IPA... as early as 1888:

http://barclayperkins.blogspot.com/2010/03/black-ipa.html

Let's not get into the war of attrition and say "I remember in NOVEMBER of 1982 a guy was brewing in North Carolina almost TWO MONTHS before another guy was brewing in Oregon!"

However, if I were to play that game, I'd point out that the Independent Ale Brewery (Red Hook), Hale's, Bert Grant's (RIP), and McMenamins all pre-date Geary's. Also, Maine is so small in population, that if I opened a brewery tomorrow in Maine, I'd increase the number of breweries by 5%. How many commercial hop farms are there in New England? Hmmm, let me guess... how about ZERO?

Portland, OR has more breweries within its city limits and more breweries per capita THAN ANY OTHER CITY IN THE WORLD.

I like good beer. No matter where it comes from. I am super excited that the Brew Ridge Festival in Virginia has a collaboration ale made by all the local breweries... and it's a Cascadian Dark Ale!

remilard said:

You've had a rough time in this thread making wrong statements so I hate to pile on but:

I wouldn't say that because it isn't true. Many of the hops I purchase commercially are from Wisconsin, the UK and Europe. Many of from the PNW as well.

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touché. You win. Thread over. I'll go home and lick my wounds. I'll obviously never "beat" you.

I think whats needed here is an objective, unbiased South African opinion - its Cascadian Dark Ale
Why ? Just because.
(ok, flame me - I can take it)

alexdagrate said:

Portland, OR has more breweries within its city limits and more breweries per capita THAN ANY OTHER CITY IN THE WORLD.

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How many breweries per capita do you believe Portland has?

Off the top of my head, Bamberg has 9 breweries and 70,000 residents.

You've already been shown that Burlington has more per capita than Portland too.

You might be more persuasive if you stuck to facts that weren't flawed.

Vermont Dark Ale.

alexdagrate said:

I completely agree and would never want to imply such a thing.

However, this region's beer culture is unique. It's tied to the land. The hops are grown here.

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Yep, that's pretty awesome; there's a lot that's special about it.

This sort of thread always up being a war of attrition, with different regionalist trying to out-do each other in thinking of someone who brewed this first. Look, if it all comes down to "who made a hoppy black beer with thin mouthfeel," then it's a Burtonian Dark Ale. Yup, the guys who invented IPA also invented Black IPA... as early as 1888:

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Sure, but the style disappeared. The current revival started in Vermont, first with Noonan's Blackwatch IPA at the Vermont Pub and Brewery which Kimmich revived in the late 1990s, then with El Jefe at Alchemist, Darkside at the Shed, and others.
"Cascadian" would be a particularly ironic name, since the Shed has been making a Belgian pale ale named "Cascadian Ale" as a tribute to the Pacific NW hops it uses for quite some time.

It's not a case of "a guy was brewing this in Vermont a couple of months before some guy out west came up with it himself". It's a case where the style was invented and commercially popularized in one area (to the point where there were several commercial versions being produced). Many of the people out west who are making them freely admit being inspired by trips to Vermont: Mitch Steele at Stone said that he first tried Darkside at the Shed, which interested him in the style enough that he then made Stone 11th Anniversary.

Also, Maine is so small in population, that if I opened a brewery tomorrow in Maine, I'd increase the number of breweries by 5%.

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Well, yeah. When you bring up per capita numbers, smaller populations are going to matter...

Portland, OR has more breweries within its city limits and more breweries per capita THAN ANY OTHER CITY IN THE WORLD.

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...and the latter's just not true. I gave the numbers above; Portland, ME has almost twice as many breweries per capita (inside city limits) as Portland, OR.

I like good beer. No matter where it comes from. I am super excited that the Brew Ridge Festival in Virginia has a collaboration ale made by all the local breweries... and it's a Cascadian Dark Ale!

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alexdagrate said:

How many commercial hop farms are there in New England? Hmmm, let me guess... how about ZERO?

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>0

http://www.northeasthopalliance.org/

artbrau said:

>0

http://www.northeasthopalliance.org/

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Man, when it rains it pours.

OK, OK, OK.

I think it should be called Cascadian Dark Ale because I live in Cascadia (The guy who came up with the name for CDA attributes it to Fish Brewing Company's slogan "Brewed in the Republic of Cascadia").

I like the way it sounds, I like Cascadia as an idea. I love the beer.

Black IPA is dumb. India-"insert here" Ale is lame. American "insert here" is lame.

CDA is fun. It is abbreviated easily. If someone says IPA or IDA or IBA in a loud bar, the bartender isn't going to be able to tell the difference. CDA creates a different movement of the lips that is easily differentiated.

But I'll admit it. I'm biased. Facts be damned.