Lager Yeast Pitching Temps

Ok, Ive read a couple different things on this subject.

1. Pitch the starter into the wort with both at room temp (75 deg).
2. Pitch the starter into the wort with both at lager fermentation temp ~50 deg.

Which one is right - if either of them is wrong. And why?

I just did a light lager and pitched with both at room temp, waited for visible fermentation to begin, then tossed into my fridge for the remainder of the primary @ 46 Deg.

Thoughts on this? Whats your experience been?

In August I was looking for this, and found no real answer. I ended up making a sizeable starter and did my best to pitch at my fermentation temps.

You should be fine though because you'll be around 46°F within 24 hours and lagers are slow enough you won't get too much off flavor over that time, if any at all.

Mine has been lagering for about a month, and I plan to tap the keg in early November. I'll know then how it turned out.

With a d-rest starting at 1.020 I got around a 70% attenuation.

I've actually done both. I've brewed award-winning lagers pitching at 70°F and dropping the temp 5°F a day to my desired temp (usually 50°F), but I've also had some that took off like a bat outta hell and left me with some subtle fruity flavors (in particular I recall a Maibock that fermented in just over a week and had just a hint of pineapple; most people didn't notice until I pointed it out, but it was there). So if you're being really picky, or if you're brewing something high-gravity, you may want to pitch cooler, but otherwise you'll probably be okay pitching at 70°F or so.

You can do either, but you'll get better beer pitching colder. Two reasons for this -- 1) You'll get more esters from the fermentation that does take place while your wort is cooling -- esters are generally bad in lagers, and 2) Many times going from warm to cooler temps will make your yeast decide to go into hibernation and could stall your fermentation.

Ok, checked the gravity. Reads about 1.015. Recipe was a kit - Taz light lager from Midwest. According to the directions - FG should be 1.010 to 1.014. I guess the thing for me to do is to give it a taste and see if any off flavors exist.

FYI - Boil date was Friday the 9th.

Does anyone have an answer to the original question or what temps to make the starter?

I made a starter with White Labs California Lager but without thinking about it kept the starter on my counter at around 70 degrees. I took my wort (not the starter) down to 50 degrees and pitched the 70 degree starter into the primary.

It took about 30 hours to show signs of fermentation which is longer than I usually get. Then once it took off it went gang busters. It's blowing out of the airlock so bad I have had to clean out the airlock lid to keep it moving.

Did I mess up by keeping the starter too high or pitching a warm starter into the wort? Do you think I will get off flavors?

Hilbert said:

Does anyone have an answer to the original question or what temps to make the starter?

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The general consensus among homebrewers is: If you're planing to cold-crash and decant the starter beer, it's OK to ferment a lager starter in a warmer range than optimum fermentation temperatures for that yeast. If you plan to pitch the whole starter, then it's best to ferment the starter wort at or near the same temp. as primary fermentation.

The reason for this is that flavor-active compounds (esters, sulfur compounds, higher alcohols, etc.) will be produced when fermenting with a lager yeast in warmer temps and pitching this starter beer into your wort may result in these flavors being noticeable in the final beer.

If you ferment a starter with lager yeast warm and decant the beer, you should be OK. However, there could be some validity to the point that if lager yeast "learn" to ferment warmer and "get used to" producing these flavor-active compounds, they may produce these compounds more than they would have otherwise in your main beer, even if primary fermentation is done in the optimum temp range for that yeast.

But that could be splitting hairs. We're talking flavor thresholds here for various compounds in beer. That's why most lager homebrewers have ended up at the consensus stated above: If you ferment the starter warm, cold-crash and decant the starter beer. If you ferment it cold, it's OK to pitch the whole starter.

Here's more from Mr Malty's 14 essential questions about yeast starters:

Q: Does a starter need to be kept at the same temperature as it is going to ferment the batch of beer later?

No, but there are practical limits to how high or low you can go.

Warmer starters (up to 98°F, 37°C) equal more rapid yeast growth, but using these very high propagation temperatures negatively affects the viability and stability of the resulting yeast. Very rapid growth or excessive growth can result in weaker cell membranes due to lower unsaturated fatty acid concentrations. Lager yeasts tend to be especially sensitive to high temperatures.

The cooler you ferment the starter (down to the planned fermentation temperature for the main batch) the slower the yeast growth, but the yeast can be healthier than yeast coming from a high temperature starter.

Keep starters between 65°F (18°C) and 75°F (24°C). A temperature around the low 70s (72°F, 22°C) strikes the best balance for the propagation of yeasts. Lager yeast starters can be kept a few degrees cooler and ale yeasts can be kept a few degrees warmer, but this temperature strikes a good balance of yeast health and efficient propagation for both types of yeast.

If you are going to pitch the starter at high krauesen, it is best to keep the starter within 5 degrees Fahrenheit (3°C) of the wort temperature of the main batch. Pitching a very warm, active starter into cold wort can stun the yeasts and with lager yeasts this can cause a higher incidence of petite mutants, which can negatively affect attenuation, flocculation, and increase hydrogen sulfide production.

You can add small amounts of cool wort to the starter over time, to bring the temperature down gradually, but it is really better to keep everything closer to fermentation temperatures from the beginning. Any time yeast sense a big drop in temperature, they slow down and drop out.

Q: At what point do I pitch the starter into the wort?

A great deal of discussion rages over this topic. Should the starter be fermented completely, the spent liquid decanted, and the yeast pitched or should the entire starter be pitched when at the height of activity?

Most yeast experts say that when propagating yeast, moving at high krausen is optimal. The time of high krauesen can range anywhere from a few hours to twenty-four or more. It depends on the amount of yeast added to the starter wort, yeast health, temperature, and several other factors.

Doss says a starter made from an XL pack of yeast into 2 liters of wort will reach its maximum cell density within 12-18 hours. If you’re starting with a very small amount of yeast in a large starter, it can take 24 hours or more to reach maximum cell densities. For the average starter, let's just say that the bulk of the yeast growth is done by 12-18 hours.

I like to pitch starters while they're still very active and as soon as the bulk of reproduction is finished, usually within 12 to 18 hours. This is really convenient, because I can make a starter the morning of the brew day or the night before and it is ready to go by the time the batch of wort is ready.

Of course, if you have a large starter volume in relation to your batch of beer or a starter that was continuously aerated, then you probably don’t want to pitch the entire starter into your wort. Adding a large starter or a heavily oxidized starter to your wort can alter the flavor of the finished beer.

If you’re going to pitch only the yeast from the starter, make sure the starter attenuates fully before decanting the spent wort. The yeast rebuild their glycogen reserve at the end of fermentation and it is this glycogen that they use when preparing to ferment a new batch of beer. Separating the spent wort from the yeast too early also selectively discards the less flocculent, higher attenuating individuals in your yeast population. You may end up with a pitch of yeast that won’t attenuate the beer fully. Allow the fermentation to go complete cycle, chill, decant the beer and pitch just the yeast.

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Mr. Malty FTW!

In addition, pitching cold yeast into warm wort is fine. Pitching warm yeast into cold wort is not, it could shock them into temporary hibernation, so if you are going to pitch cold keep your yeast cold.

Pitching lagers warm shortens lag time and ensures that you get active fermentation before cooling the wort. That was the recommended process for quite some time. If you do pitch warm, however, you should probably do a diacetyl rest near the end of fermentation. That warm start might have produced some off flavors (most notably diacetyl) that need to be cleaned up.

If you chill your wort to fermentation temperature before pitching, your yeast is most likely going to take off more slowly but you'll have a cleaner fermentation with less need for a diacetyl rest.

You can do it either way, but there are pros and cons to each.

Chad

Great thanks a lot guys.

Good advise for the next lager. This was my first lager so I'll chalk it up to learning curve. That explains though why my fermentation took a while to kick in and then took off like crazy once it went.

In addition, pitching cold yeast into warm wort is fine.

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I can't remember where I read it but even going from cool to warm has its limits and IIRC it was 18 degrees F (which smacks of converting a nice round number like 10 degrees C ).

Lately I like to make a starter (~3.5 qt) and let it complete and settle at room temp. Then just a day or so (two days max, day and a half is about perfect) before brewday, decant and step-up another 3.5 qt. As soon as I see it taking off, start a slow chilling process (water bath) to get it down at least into the 60s if not lower. Then decant and pitch. Then I can pitch it 'cool' and the yeasties are just chompin' at the bit to get at it. But that's just one way.

There is a 'Warm vs. Cold pitching' section in Kaiser's Fermenting Lagers page...among lots of other great info.

I've stopped making lager yeast starters all-together. In my current brewing "career", 2 rehydrated packets of Saflager W-34/70 does everything I need a lager yeast to do. The only difference I noticed from WLP 830 was that it was actually cleaner tasting. I believe this is due to all of these lager yeast starter issues we're discussing here (pitch-rate, yeast health, warm/cold, etc.). My old liquid lager yeast starters were not quite as big as they really needed to be.

I keep meaning to try the Saflager because I really like that strain (I've used both White WLP830 and Wyeast 2124) and you've said you really like the W-34/70. But my OHBS hasn't carried it in the past (they just started apparently).

I usually don't even consider washing/saving dry yeast but at over $4 a packet and two packets per batch I may have to. Still cheaper than an Activator/vial and a bunch of DME...and MUCH easier.

Hey guys, I just made my first lager yesterday, here is what I did.

I built a 1.7 liter starter from a bohemian lager smack pack, went like crazy at room temp for about 24 hours. I pitched it about 24 hours after fermentation stopped and it had a chance to settle. Before I pitched, I decanted off about 70% of the mother liquor, took off 5 vials worth for freezing.

After I finished brewing I threw the carboy and the starter flask in the fridge with my new 2-stage Ranco ETC. I set it to 50 F with a 2 deg diff. after about 3 or 4 hours I checked on the temp of the carboy and it was about 60 F, I can only assume the starter was closer to 50. At this point I pitched my yeast and shut the door.

Now I know i tend to be a little impatient, but I haven't seen any activity yet. Like I said this is my first lager and I was just wondering how long I should wait before I start to worry and consider making up and pitching another starter. Thanks for the advice.

stromam said:

Hey guys, I just made my first lager yesterday, here is what I did.

I built a 1.7 liter starter from a bohemian lager smack pack, went like crazy at room temp for about 24 hours. I pitched it about 24 hours after fermentation stopped and it had a chance to settle. Before I pitched, I decanted off about 70% of the mother liquor, took off 5 vials worth for freezing.

After I finished brewing I threw the carboy and the starter flask in the fridge with my new 2-stage Ranco ETC. I set it to 50 F with a 2 deg diff. after about 3 or 4 hours I checked on the temp of the carboy and it was about 60 F, I can only assume the starter was closer to 50. At this point I pitched my yeast and shut the door.

Now I know i tend to be a little impatient, but I haven't seen any activity yet. Like I said this is my first lager and I was just wondering how long I should wait before I start to worry and consider making up and pitching another starter. Thanks for the advice.

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If you decanted off a large portion of the yeast, you may be in for a LONG wait. Lager fermentations need a ton of yeast, if you start them at optimum fermentation temperatures. I either pitch the whole starter at high krausen if I can manage that (always seems like I'm too early, or too late!), or wait until it's finished and then stick it in the fridge. The spent wort is totally clear then, and the yeast is on the bottom. I pitch just the yeast into my wort. A 1.7L starter is very small for a lager! More like 4L, I would think. Check mrmalty.com and look at his pitching calculator to see how much yeast you should have pitched.

Without knowing how much yeast you actually pitched, I'd have to say to wait at least 72 hours before considering repitching.

Yep. The purpose of making a 1.7 liter starter should have been to make more pitchable yeast, not to create yeast vials. Next time wash your yeast cake after fermentation to create vials. Also it's worth visiting Mrmalty.com to look at the pitching calculator. Even 1.7 liter starter is probably kinda small for a lager.

The yeast had mostly settled, the mother liquor was very clear before i decanted. The 1.7 liters came from mrmalty and i didn't take off very much yeast to make my vials, so it should be pretty close to the correct pitch rate.

I don't like the idea of making vials from yeast cake, there is too much of a chance for bacteria/wild yeast numbers to build that way. When I make my vials straight from a smack pack I know that I am using a very pure yeast culture and I tend to be much more careful about being sanitary when I make starters than when I make the full batch.

My question is really how long of a lag do people generally see when pitching cold yeast into cold wort when making lagers, forget about the starter, lets say I just pitched a smack pack directly after it had swelled and cooled to 50 F.

I don't remember ever just pitching a smack-pack in a lager, always a starter and the lag is almost always <24hrs.

Another thing I read in Zymurgy lager article is that when cold-pitching lager starters that were fermented at room temp, it is beneficial to chill the starter in the fridge for at least 24 hours prior to pitching.

I've got a lager I brewed Sunday. Pitched cold & had visible fermentation by last night (less than 24 hours).

Just as a side note, the mrmalty calculations are based on pitching a whole vial. If you're pitching less, you'd need a larger starter so you produce extra yeast to make up for what you took off to make your extra vials.

Just as a side note, the mrmalty calculations are based on pitching a whole vial. If you're pitching less, you'd need a larger starter so you produce extra yeast to make up for what you took off to make your extra vials.

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And FWIW, it's easy to adjust your starting cell count by adjusting the 'Viability' slider because the calculator is based on 100B cells in a vial/smackpack. So if for example you had 100% viable yeast but only half a vial, you could set it at 50% viability which would be 50B cells. Basically, that viability 'percentage' equates to 'billions of cells' i.e. 100% viability = 100B cells.

I understand what you are all saying, but I took my vials (15 ml each, so not much) for freezing after making the starter, not before, so I pitched a whole smack pack into my starter wort.

Oh, I forgot to post my update. Sure enough, i was just impatient. It took off like a bat out of hell after about 36 hours. I guess that answers my question Thank for the advise.