Help me understand

At the not-so-local (100+ miles) homebrew store where I got my kit and the ingredients for my first two batches, they sold me a can of Cooper's Stout and recommended that I add 2 lbs of "briess dried malt extract" when I boil the liquid hopped malt extract from the kit.

Do I add the dried malt extract INSTEAD of the 1 kg of sugar that the kit instructions recommend, or IN ADDITION TO 1 kg of sugar? Why are they recommending this dried malt extract? How will it make my beer better than the standard kit beer?

Also, the yeast that comes in the kit is "Cooper's brewing yeast - 7g." Several threads here seem to recommend using different (or more) yeast than the kit calls for. What should I do?

Thanks

Use the malt INSTEAD of the sugar. Sugar will cause a cidery taste but the malt will make it taste like beer. The instructions in canned kit are notoriously bad.

Brewers tend to be a bit picky about yeast (rightly so) but it is beer yeast. Use it if it is all you have. It will work, it just not the best.

The other thing I'll add is don't pay attention to the time line they might give you in the instructions if it says to bottle your beer after only a week. That is just a terrible idea! Let it sit in the primary at least a couple weeks.

Go with the malt instead of the sugar. Sugar, depending on who you ask, can give off some terrible off flavors.

Yeast, if it's the only thing you have then go for it. Otherwise go to the LHBS and pick up a better yeast. If you do end up using the kit yeast you may on to make a starter first.

Sheep_Dog said:

Go with the malt instead of the sugar. Sugar, depending on who you ask, can give off some terrible off flavors.

Yeast, if it's the only thing you have then go for it. Otherwise go to the LHBS and pick up a better yeast. If you do end up using the kit yeast you may on to make a starter first.

Click to expand...

How do I choose a better yeast?

Use the kit yeast and dried malt extract (DME) this time.
No sugar.
When you go the LHBS for the next batch, get a package of dried yeast.
Danstar's Nottingham and Safale SA-05 are good, reliable yeasts.

There is no "best" yeast.
There are hundreds of established strains, with different flavors and properties.
Don't worry about it until you're comfortable with the rest of the process.

jldc said:

At the not-so-local (100+ miles) homebrew store where I got my kit and the ingredients for my first two batches, they sold me a can of Cooper's Stout and recommended that I add 2 lbs of "briess dried malt extract" when I boil the liquid hopped malt extract from the kit.

Do I add the dried malt extract INSTEAD of the 1 kg of sugar that the kit instructions recommend, or IN ADDITION TO 1 kg of sugar? Why are they recommending this dried malt extract? How will it make my beer better than the standard kit beer?

Also, the yeast that comes in the kit is "Cooper's brewing yeast - 7g." Several threads here seem to recommend using different (or more) yeast than the kit calls for. What should I do?

Thanks

Click to expand...

The Coopers Stout beer kit with 1 kg of dextrose is very good. Use the Coopers yeast. It is a very good and reliable yeast. The yeast in the Coopers Stout beer kit is the same strain that Coopers uses in the brewery for the Coopers Stout. Do not boil the kit. Follow the manufacturer's instructions. Most of the people that say otherwise have never followed the instructions on the kit. At least use 300 grams of dextrose if you are going to use DME.

Follow the directions on the can. Don't boil the extract in the can.

Use the DME or the sugar, or possibly both. Whichever you choose, if you use the Cooper's yeast that comes with the can at least use some of the sugar or dextrose.

No need to go shopping for extra yeast, the Cooper's yeast will do just fine.

A Cooper's kit is designed to produce a specific style. The yeast is selected to ferment that style well. The sugar recommended is dextrose (brewer's sugar) not table sugar, so the "cidery" comments are out of place.

Replacing the dextrose with DME will increase the body, maltiness, and LOWER the final ABV. Most homebrewers would say the first two are pluses and the last is a bad thing. But, it will not be the beer as designed by Cooper's.

Personally, I believe in brewing kits by the design the first time. Cooper's kits and instructions are fine for what they are intended to be. If you do the kit straight the first time, and make ONE change the second (be it yeast or DME); then you will be a step on the road of learning what a change in a recipe does to the final product.

Why should I not boil the liquid extract?

If I go with all or mostly DME, do I boil it (how long) and then add the Cooper's Stout liq extract right at the end of the boil?

Am I correct in assuming that then different options (All DME, All dextrose, mixture) will produce drinkable beers that are just somewhat different from each other?

L

david_42 said:

Personally, I believe in brewing kits by the design the first time. Cooper's kits and instructions are fine for what they are intended to be. If you do the kit straight the first time, and make ONE change the second (be it yeast or DME); then you will be a step on the road of learning what a change in a recipe does to the final product.

Click to expand...

That makes sense to me.

L

jldc said:

Why should I not boil the liquid extract?

If I go with all or mostly DME, do I boil it (how long) and then add the Cooper's Stout liq extract right at the end of the boil?

Am I correct in assuming that then different options (All DME, All dextrose, mixture) will produce drinkable beers that are just somewhat different from each other?

L

Click to expand...

1)
You don't NEED to boil the extract because you are NOT adding any hops, so you don't need to isomerize any alpha acids...in the case of the coopers NO BOIL kits, you just really need to pasteurize the wort...

If you boil this kit, you will caramelize the wort and darken it further, no problem in this stout (though like I said unnecessary) but would be noticable in other styles..

2)
There's a great debate as to whether or not to swap the sugar with DME in cooper's kits, some argue that since the instructions call for sugar you shuld use it as is....there have been some heated debate on that topic on here...

But whatever method you use, you will have 3 slightly different Yet ALL drinkable beers...Ultimately it will be your choice....Having not brewed one I won't suggest what is the best way to go...common brewing "wisdom" is that where it calls for TABLE sugar, replace it with dme...

Personally I think only those who have brewed cooper's kits, BOTH ways should be weighing in on this topic...the rest of us answering the "whther or not to" (myself included) are pretty much blowing smoke up your a$$....From us it's just common wisdom and conjecture...

Big Kahuna and I are planning to do some experiments with Cooper's kits this winter, brewing them different ways, including boiling them, adding hops, swapping DME for sugar, etc, and hopefully turn that into a BYO article, or at least a somewhat definitive post for the Wiki....

Personally I think only those who have brewed cooper's kits, BOTH ways should be weighing in on this topic...the rest of us answering the "whther or not to" (myself included) are pretty much blowing smoke up your a$$....From us it's just common wisdom and conjecture...

Click to expand...

I agree entirely. As one of the people who's done it both ways, I'm 100% certain that the results are better when I quit listening to the conventional "don't follow the instructions on the can" wisdom thats tossed around this forum on a regular basis.

Especially as regards the "use the sugar" vs "don't use the sugar" part of the debate. What gets overlooked is that someone making one of those can kits is most likely looking to make a beer that is similar to what they might buy, so if they're making one of the lighter kits like Cooper's Draught or Cooper's Lager it makes perfect sense to go ahead and use the Cooper's Brewing sugar as per the instructions regardless of any concerns about "cidery flavor". Buy a six pack of Miller Genuine Draft sometimes open a can and taste it - you're going to taste that "cidery" taste, Same if you get a six of Budweiser, etc... I know most of you guys quit drinking BMC a long time ago, but many of us still drink it and guess what - it tastes like "cider" sometimes.

You can certainly use DME or LME with the kit if you want to, but if you do you'd better be prepared to add some hops as well or its going to taste so much like malt that nobody will think its any good. And I know some of you want "more mouthfeel" or "more malt flavor" or whatever, but I think most people who are wanting to make their own beer are more interested in making something that is recognizable as beer and not a mouth full of malt syrup.

Which is not to say that adding DME instead of the sugar won't work, or it won't make good beer - but its not going to make the beer that someone who is most likely completely new to brewing is going to be expecting.

Revvy, if you'd like some help with your Cooper's kit experiments - I'd love to help you out. I'm just a few short of my goal of brewing every one of them and I've got pretty good notes about what was good and what wasn't.

..Having not brewed one I won't suggest what is the best way to go...common brewing "wisdom" is that where it calls for TABLE sugar, replace it with dme...

Click to expand...

Thats where the common brewing wisdom starts to break down, because the Cooper's instructions do not call for TABLE sugar. Cooper's makes brewing sugar which is sucrose and maltodextrine mix thats specially formulated for their beer kits. When their instructions read "sugar" - that is what they are talking about - not the sugar that you put in your coffee.

Revvy said:

Big Kahuna and I are planning to do some experiments with Cooper's kits this winter, brewing them different ways, including boiling them, adding hops, swapping DME for sugar, etc, and hopefully turn that into a BYO article, or at least a somewhat definitive post for the Wiki....

Click to expand...

I am down to hear what happens with that. I've just started brewing and have only used the Cooper's kits. I'm interested to hear how the goodness can be maximized....or at least altered.

-WW

Don't assume that the folks that say DME rather than sugar are not speaking from experience. I kind of amazed I continued on with my brewing career after the first couple canned kits.

We followed the directions and adding sugar and they tasted terrible to me. I had no reference other than commercial beers which I didn't like at all. On the third kit, we had gotten some advice from the LHBS to add DME instead of sugar and it was much better.

Happily, our determination to learn the craft moved us quickly from canned kits. I found I liked beer just fine, however, had I just used the canned kit with sugar as reference, I would not be brewing 4 years later.

My first few batches here were based off of Coopers Kits. I did the Real Ale, the Bavarian Lager, the Bitter, and the Dark Ale.

In all cases, I ended up using the same method. The results were decent and drinkable, but my "recipe" batches are way, way better. I still have several bottles of the kit brew left, and they do improve with age.

That being said, my method was to drop the can in a pot of just-off-the-boil water for about 15 minutes to loosen up the syrup, start 1.5G of water boiling in my stock pot, add the syrup when it came to a boil, then added another KG of DME (recommended by my HBS for added "body", which I agree with). And, yes, I did boil all that for an hour before chilling & pitching the included yeast. No extra hops or other additives.

In all cases, I let it sit in the carboy for around 8-9 days, then bottled with 3/4 c. priming sugar.

Some came out better than others -- the BL & Bitter were by far my favorite out of the kits, whereas the Real Ale just came out kind of... well, one-dimensional. It was a good "first step" approach because it let me concentrate on my sanitization routines and general methods rather than ingredients, but I don't think I'll ever rely *just* on a kit again -- the results I've been getting from my extract recipes have been just too good, and I keep hearing that that's nothing compared to what is possible with partial-mash/all-grain.

I read the instructions that came with Cooper's kits, and... I dunno. I like the feeling of security that the boil gives me. I guess I'm just paranoid.