Third attempt and still no good!

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xHeight

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This is my third time brewing on my own so far and none have turned out well.

Tonight I transferred to the secondary. The primary has a very short krausen ring and a very pungent smell. Almost chemical. It's exactly how my other two have smelled.

The flavor of my previous two has been plastic-y and makes your mouth feel dry (and smooth? if that makes sense?). I looked it up and saw that a lot of times it has to do with cleaning solutions you use to sanitize. I was using a very mild bleach solution. I changed it up this time and went with Oxy Clean and some Star San. Same results. What could I possibly be doing wrong?
I used the Christmas Ale kit from Midwest Supplies with wyeast.

Please let me know if you have any questions. I haven't taken a gravity reading on this one but I did on my previous two and they were perfect.
 
I would think somewhere in the chain you have to look at your equipment and your process.
First things first - equipment and sanitation.
  • From your boil pot to your fermentation chamber - what is coming in contact with the beer and how clean is it REALLY?
  • The hoses, spoons, funnel, rubber bungs, airlocks, hydrometer and test chamber - How clean are they REALLY?
  • Are you using an auto siphon to transfer between boil pot and fermentation chamber - or are you priming the transfer tube with your lips?
  • How clean is your carboy REALLY?
  • How long are your boils?

That's just a start - but if you can answer those I'm sure the crew here will be really good at ferreting out what could be going wrong in the process. Good job on the Star-San - but it's gonna have to be used properly - so explaining your methodology there will help as well as your routine for cleaning (contact time with cleaners and agents and mix of the solutions).

Somewhere out there is an answer. Have you dropped cinnamon sticks onto all of these batches?
 
If you're using StarSan for sanitizing, there is no need to use the OxyClean. If you are using the OxyClean for cleaning after fermentation, then make sure you are rinsing thoroughly afterward. I personally use PBW but I have noticed that if I don't rinse enough, there is a soapy film that is left behind.

Just a few questions:

What ratio are you mixing your StarSan and are you strict about your sanitizing?

Are you controlling your fermentation temperature? Too high a temp could result in a medicinal off flavor.

How long are you leaving these in primary? Rushing your yeast could lead you to believe that your beer is going wrong when it isnt. :rockin:
 
I would think somewhere in the chain you have to look at your equipment and your process.
First things first - equipment and sanitation.
  • From your boil pot to your fermentation chamber - what is coming in contact with the beer and how clean is it REALLY?
  • The hoses, spoons, funnel, rubber bungs, airlocks, hydrometer and test chamber - How clean are they REALLY?
  • Are you using an auto siphon to transfer between boil pot and fermentation chamber - or are you priming the transfer tube with your lips?
  • How clean is your carboy REALLY?
  • How long are your boils?

That's just a start - but if you can answer those I'm sure the crew here will be really good at ferreting out what could be going wrong in the process. Good job on the Star-San - but it's gonna have to be used properly - so explaining your methodology there will help as well as your routine for cleaning (contact time with cleaners and agents and mix of the solutions).

Somewhere out there is an answer. Have you dropped cinnamon sticks onto all of these batches?

I'll try to go into as much detail as I can. Firstly, I brew based off the instructions that come with the Midwest Supplies kit.

I start by scrubbing the boiling pot in the sink, soap and water. Then fill with pure clean water from the tap and let that start boiling.

Then I take the primary bucket into the bath tub (as that's the only faucet I have that can fill it) and begin scrubbing with Oxi. I throw the airlock and thermometer into the bucket to soak for a bit. I wash and rinse those pieces and the lid. I also have a "paint stirrer" that attaches to my drill that I use just before I pitch the yeast to get some extra oxygen into the wort. I wash and sanitize this at the same time.

Then I brew. I use a wood or plastic spoon. I just wash that and sanitize it in the boiling water.

Then I poor the wort into the primary bucket, stir with the drill attachment, pitch yeast, place it in the closet with the air lock on the lid.

Clean everything and put it all away.

8 days later (tonight) I transferred to the secondary. I clean/sanitize the exact same way. I have a bucket that I can fill to soak everything like my pump and tubing.

I still have a sneaking suspicion that it's going to turn out well. So I'm going to go ahead and bottle just to see what happens.
 
If you're using StarSan for sanitizing, there is no need to use the OxyClean. If you are using the OxyClean for cleaning after fermentation, then make sure you are rinsing thoroughly afterward. I personally use PBW but I have noticed that if I don't rinse enough, there is a soapy film that is left behind.

Just a few questions:

What ratio are you mixing your StarSan and are you strict about your sanitizing?

Are you controlling your fermentation temperature? Too high a temp could result in a medicinal off flavor.

How long are you leaving these in primary? Rushing your yeast could lead you to believe that your beer is going wrong when it isnt. :rockin:

I use about 1.5 oz of Star San - sometimes a little more per 5 jug (bucket or carboy).

While I'm not exactly sure of the temperature in the closet, I know that it can't be that drastic. I keep my house at about 65-70 degrees all the time and closet that it's in is well insulated. I should probably buy a thermometer for this. Suggestions? I'm a pretty tech savvy person so I think it would be awesome to have a thermometer that connects to my network so I could check with my phone or computer.

All of these have spent at least 8 days in the primary.
 
Not REAL sure it has anything to do with it, but in the far right pic you say you did a 5gal batch with 4.5gals. It looks like you ONLY used 4.5gallons and boiled off at least 2 of it. Unless that's a really big carboy you got there. Lots of extra headspace isn't good for your fermenting beer. Plus, if it does end up as only 2-2.5 gallons isn't the ABV going to be pretty darned high if not stalled due to the high ABV??
 
I use about 1.5 oz of Star San - sometimes a little more per 5 jug (bucket or carboy).

While I'm not exactly sure of the temperature in the closet, I know that it can't be that drastic. I keep my house at about 65-70 degrees all the time and closet that it's in is well insulated. I should probably buy a thermometer for this. Suggestions? I'm a pretty tech savvy person so I think it would be awesome to have a thermometer that connects to my network so I could check with my phone or computer.

All of these have spent at least 8 days in the primary.

Your StarSan mix seems good so no worries there.

Is it 65 or 70 in your house? Most ale yeast like temp below 70 and also create heat of their own. Usually at least 5 degrees. I would at least get a fermometer for your carboy so you know what heat your fermenting wort is producing. They are usually pretty cheap.

8 days is usually way too short. You want to leave your beer alone for at least 14 days. You may hit your FG after a week, but the yeast make a mess converting all the sugar to alcohol and CO2 and need some time to clean up that mess. Don't rush your beer to be finished and it will improve in quality dramatically. :mug:
 
I agree with the comments previously stated. That is way too much head in your carboy. Become obsessed with making sure everything is clean and sanitized. Keep a bucket filled with sanitizer to hold all of your utensils (auto syphon, spoons, paint stirrer etc) that will come in contact with the beer. Get a spray bottle and fill it with san star. What are you scrubbing your equipment with? If you are using a plastic bucket for your primary don't scrub it with anything that will leave scratches on the inside. For your next brew I would consider leaving your beer in primary for 3-4 weeks then bottling. IMO there is really no need to transfer to secondary unless you are dry hopping, adding fruit, or lagering for an extended period of time. Don't get discouraged and keep brewing!!
 
Your StarSan mix seems good so no worries there.

Is it 65 or 70 in your house? Most ale yeast like temp below 70 and also create heat of their own. Usually at least 5 degrees. I would at least get a fermometer for your carboy so you know what heat your fermenting wort is producing. They are usually pretty cheap.

8 days is usually way too short. You want to leave your beer alone for at least 14 days. You may hit your FG after a week, but the yeast make a mess converting all the sugar to alcohol and CO2 and need some time to clean up that mess. Don't rush your beer to be finished and it will improve in quality dramatically. :mug:

Hmm the instructions from Midwest supplies says transfer to your secondary after only 5-7 days. Should it stay in the primary for 14 then transfer to the secondary?
 
8 days is usually way too short. You want to leave your beer alone for at least 14 days. You may hit your FG after a week, but the yeast make a mess converting all the sugar to alcohol and CO2 and need some time to clean up that mess. Don't rush your beer to be finished and it will improve in quality dramatically. :mug:

+1.

Possible that you're tasting by-products of active fermentation (aka, yeast poop) that you haven't given the yeast time to clean up.

Room temp = 70*F means fermentation peaking at 77-80*F. I have recently measured temps on the side of the bucket that are 7 degrees above ambient air.
 
You said you pour your hot wort directly into your bucket then pitch your yeast, no? Are you chilling your wort at all prior to pitching yeast? If not, I can almost guarantee that's the source of at least most of your off flavors. Yeast work best when pitched cool (for the most part)- for ale, I pitch around 64F. Good luck!!
 
xHeight said:
Hmm the instructions from Midwest supplies says transfer to your secondary after only 5-7 days. Should it stay in the primary for 14 then transfer to the secondary?

You're fine. I primary for 10 days then keg. No difference between the beers I leave 2+ weeks. Meh.
 
You said you pour your hot wort directly into your bucket then pitch your yeast, no? Are you chilling your wort at all prior to pitching yeast? If not, I can almost guarantee that's the source of at least most of your off flavors. Yeast work best when pitched cool (for the most part)- for ale, I pitch around 64F. Good luck!!

OH right sorry I left that part out. I cool in the sink with ice until it gets to about 80 degrees F. Takes about 20 minutes from boil to 80.
 
xHeight said:
OH right sorry I left that part out. I cool in the sink with ice until it gets to about 80 degrees F. Takes about 20 minutes from boil to 80.

Most ale yeasts are going to throw off some gnarly esters when you pitch that warm. I don't even let my fermenting beer get over 70F. I'm going to say that is likely a source of your problem. For your next batch, try to get the wort down to 66F prior to pitching yeast. Even if you have to keep just the wort in your fermenter (covered) for a bit before pitching, you will make better beer.

EDIT: google homebrew swamp cooler
 
I use about 1.5 oz of Star San - sometimes a little more per 5 jug (bucket or carboy).

While I'm not exactly sure of the temperature in the closet, I know that it can't be that drastic. I keep my house at about 65-70 degrees all the time and closet that it's in is well insulated. I should probably buy a thermometer for this. Suggestions? I'm a pretty tech savvy person so I think it would be awesome to have a thermometer that connects to my network so I could check with my phone or computer.

All of these have spent at least 8 days in the primary.

You are using too much starsan, can't say if it's ruining your beer , but the instructions call for 1 ounce per 5 gallons of water. Personally for what I do I just use a half ounce for 2.5 gallons and reserve some. Starsan doesn't require soaking or immersion just enough contact time before use (at least 30 seconds, you can wait a minute if you choose)
 
Most ale yeasts are going to throw off some gnarly esters when you pitch that warm. I don't even let my fermenting beer get over 70F. I'm going to say that is likely a source of your problem. For your next batch, try to get the wort down to 66F prior to pitching yeast. Even if you have to keep just the wort in your fermenter (covered) for a bit before pitching, you will make better beer.

EDIT: google homebrew swamp cooler

I definitely feel like this could be a perpetrator.
 
Are you using tap water for brewing and/or topping up after the boil?

If your tap water contains Chlorine and/or chloramine those can lead to plasticky, or band-aid, type off flavours/smells.

Leaving your brewing (tap) water in an open vessel overnight before a brew session will allow the chlorine to dissipate but chloramine is a bit more stubborn. You can, however, use Campden tabs to remedy that.

Either that or use bottled water to do a batch and see if that makes the required difference.
 
CoalCreekBeer said:
Wood is very hard to keep sanitary, I would recommend the plastic, or get stainless steel.

I could be wrong but I feel if you are using wood to stir your mash and hop additions during boil, you should be okay. It is once you have cooled your wort to temp that you should be precautionary.
 
I could be wrong but I feel if you are using wood to stir your mash and hop additions during boil, you should be okay. It is once you have cooled your wort to temp that you should be precautionary.

Agreed, however I cannot tell you how many times I have reached for a unsterilized spoon to stir with the immersion chiller (use stainless steel for mashing, plastic for the immersion to keep from beating up the copper).
 
Agreed, however I cannot tell you how many times I have reached for a unsterilized spoon to stir with the immersion chiller (use stainless steel for mashing, plastic for the immersion to keep from beating up the copper).


Ah I understand where you are coming from. I use a wine aerator attached to my drill for that purpose and it is made out of stainless steel and pastil which is kept in stan star until I am ready.
 
He's using soap in his brew pot.

Soap.

I was thinking the same thing.

Also are you using the Oxyclean without scent? I've heard that it makes a difference. I've only ever used the unscented version and had no problems using that as a brewery cleaner and Star San for sanitation.
 
xHeight said:
Hmm the instructions from Midwest supplies says transfer to your secondary after only 5-7 days. Should it stay in the primary for 14 then transfer to the secondary?

1st step in making decent beer is throwing away the instruction sheet!
Next, read a good book like how to brew or complete joy of home brewing.
3rd, save yourself the time and headache of secondary, nothing happens in there that doesn't happen in the primary.
4th, realize that brewers make wort, yeast make beer. If you focus your efforts on quality fermentation from healthy yeast, you will make better beer than someone who focuses on other ingredients. The book "yeast", is an excellent resource. Pitch rate, temperature control, and proper aeration are the biggest factors in fermentation. Extra headspace in you primary is no biggie...
 
Make sure you put some marks on your fermenting vessel in 1 gallon incraments so you know how much to put in to get to the proper volume. And use oxyfree or PBW for cleaning,rinse well. Try using spring or RO water on a batch & see if that helps. Keep ferment temps in the range stated for the yeast used. And make sure everything is clean & sanitized that touches the wort/beer.
 
Are you sure the smell in the fermenter is not CO2? If you are sticking your head down in it, you would be smelling the CO2 gas cloud above your beer. I think you might mistake CO2 as having a chemical odor. If the chemical smell burns your nose, its CO2 and not someting to worry about.

From the picture, you use a bucket for primary then rack to a glass carboy for secondary right? Do you keep that cinnamon stick in the primary for the full fermentation? If you do, that is an non sanitary item in your wort. Flavor additions such as the cinnamon stick might be better left to secondary (the alcohol in your beer will protect it at this point). Cinnamon sticks arn't always only cinnamon, cheap ones will include chemical enhancers and preservatives.

My advice is, bottle this one and let it age for a month then start to check it. After that, clean all your gear with Oxyclean Free and rinse it very well. inspect all plastic parts for scratches or dings that can harbor bacteria (if your plastic is scratched, you might never be able to make it sanitary). Focus on cleaning and sanitizing your gear. I assume you are an extract brewer, get a kit you like and follow the instructions included with the kit. Also, find the volumes on your fementer.

One late addition, are you treating your tap water? Try making a batch with spring water or bottled water from the store and see if it is better. I've had beer made with tap water that I love to drink and it makes bad beer.
 
I would say most likely ferm temps. But there is room for process improvement here.

-For the pot, take a sponge (not scrubbie) and wash out the inside of any loose debris/leftovers with hot water and store (upside down) after brewing. Boil pot should not need sanitizer.
-Other utensils that touch the wort while boiling work the same way. Clean, but sanitizing is unnecessary.
-fermenter and other stuff that touches it at non boiling temps, clean as above, but soak in sanitizer for a couple minutes before use. Using Starsan dont worry about rinsing. but make sure there is no debris or other crap on them before sanitizing or it will not really do much good. Hard to sanitize dirt and all.
-Do your boil, cool to fermenting temps or a little below before pitching.
-Starters improve your beer, but arent really needed for dry yeast
-Temperature control is king. Using the appropriate temperature range for the beginning especially of fermentation is important for getting the right flavors from the yeast. This is where you get the hot (fusel) alcohol flavors and even the fruity and such esters that yeast form. My advice is to stay away from light beers and lagers until you get temp control down.
-dont rush it, secondary is not necessary and can be skipped with prolonged primary. Also let it sit in bottles for at least 3 weeks to mature and clean up a little.

If your beer tastes not great, give it a month or so to condition. It can improve, though some flavors do not reallty condition out.

Most of all do not give up. Unless that is your thing. Then go ahead. :D
 
He's using soap in his brew pot.

Soap.

Nothing wrong with soap if you're rinsing well and it's scent and dye free. Sure there are better options, but if you're just starting brewing and decide you don't like it, it's a lot easier to repurpose detergent or dish soap than other things.
 
The thing is,dish soap has an enzyme in it that makes the water sheet off,preventing spots. It's a head killer. Besides if it isn't rinse thoroughly,it can leave off flavors.
 
I know it's overkill - but every time I brew I scrub my brew pot down with water and a sponge - no soap - and then I fill it with about 3/4 of an inch of water and boil/steam it for about ten minutes. I do it with my top-off water pots as well.

What I really want to avoid is any exposure to oils or animal fats that might have gotten on them in between brews. Call me paranoid I guess - but I like those pots to be pretty sterile when I use them.
 
The thing is,dish soap has an enzyme in it that makes the water sheet off,preventing spots. It's a head killer. Besides if it isn't rinse thoroughly,it can leave off flavors.

That is true. And it's not the ideal choice. But it's not gonna kill your beer if you use it. Especially if you rince thoroughly. If John Palmer says it's ok to use so do I :mug:
 
Also, just as an added question. I am wilderness first aid certified and in my studies I have been taught that an 8 minute rolling boil kills 99% of living elements in water. There's a fraction of a fraction of life that can withstand the 8 minute boil and still effect a human negatively.

Does this also apply to beer? :off:
 
Let that sheeting enzyme get on your beer glasses. It'll kill the head. So you have to figure that it can't be good for the BK either.
 
Also, just as an added question. I am wilderness first aid certified and in my studies I have been taught that an 8 minute rolling boil kills 99% of living elements in water. There's a fraction of a fraction of life that can withstand the 8 minute boil and still effect a human negatively.

Does this also apply to beer? :off:

No. It applies to wort, but once it becomes beer, the remaining fraction cannot survive in it.
 
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