Electric brewing without a Control Panel??

I'm very new to brewing having only 4 extract batches and 1 partial mash batch under my belt. I’ve been admiring Kal’s brewery and others for a while now, and am interested in creating my own once I get some brewing, electrical knowledge, and money under my belt.

I would like to keep extract brewing while I’m saving up for the mash tun, HLT, Control Panel, pumps, chillers, ventilation, etc... Is there a SAFE way to control the temperature for steeping grains and partial mashes without making the splurge for the Control Panel (which I plan to do eventually, just can’t right away)? I imagine I can plug the element in and it would get me to a boil pretty quick, but I’d like to have the ability to keep it at certain temps without having to convince my fiancé that I need a $1500 Control Panel…

I’m sorry if this has been answered (I searched, I swear!), or is a dumb question – I’m still learning and reading as much as I can to make sure my set up is as safe as possible…

The short answer is "no"... or "not really".

I asked this somewhere else, and the basic answer was something to the effect of it's not a good thing to be plugging and unplugging the element... hence the relays, which do it for you.

Because of this, my electric brewery has been placed on semi-hold until I can get the basic stuff together.

Oh.. it was also recommended that you not use a circuit breaker as your on/off switch as well.

YMMV.

The answer is you can cobble something together for a few $$. Somewhere on HBT someone posted a simple modification to a potentiometer that is available online. You need a bit of skill with a soldering iron and some odds and ends. Hopefully someone will post the link as I can't find it right now.

It's basically the same way they http://brewmation.com/Brewery.html control the boil, only without all the other stuff.

edit : this was what I was looking for https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f170/pwm-show-us-how-221301/

http://www.midwestsupplies.com/electric-brew-heater-w-15-element.html
expensive but a ready made heat sick with thermostat just plug and play

staab016 said:

I’ve been admiring Kal’s brewery and others for a while now, and am interested in creating my own once I get some brewing, electrical knowledge, and money under my belt.

Is there a SAFE way to control the temperature for steeping grains and partial mashes without making the splurge for the Control Panel (which I plan to do eventually, just can’t right away)?

Click to expand...

Yes, you need a method to control the heat output.

A PID setup is ideal (not necessarily Kal'tastic) but you can also use simple analog controllers (e.g., think 'electric stove') if you're on a budget. Search the forum for examples.

KuntyBrew said:

http://www.midwestsupplies.com/electric-brew-heater-w-15-element.html
expensive but a ready made heat sick with thermostat just plug and play

Click to expand...

samc said:

The answer is you can cobble something together for a few $$. Somewhere on HBT someone posted a simple modification to a potentiometer that is available online. You need a bit of skill with a soldering iron and some odds and ends. Hopefully someone will post the link as I can't find it right now.

It's basically the same way they http://brewmation.com/Brewery.html control the boil, only without all the other stuff.

edit : this was what I was looking for https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f170/pwm-show-us-how-221301/

Click to expand...

Thanks for all the responses.... the potentiometer looks like a pretty inexpensive option, i'll need to look into it more. I think the adjustable heat stick would be the easiest option to fend off the brewing bug while i'm learning more about electronics and saving cash, but $180 seems a bit steep for something I would put on the backshelf once the build is finished? I imagine I could find other uses for it or even sell it to a brewing friend!

you could always still use it when you upgrade use for you sparge water or what not and incorporate it in your system but yes 180 is $$$

Just build a simple one at first. You need a GFCI, PID controller (with heat sink), 40-60 amp SSR, temperature probe, low watt density element and an enclosure... If your creative, you can get it all for around $100.00 or so...

Here is a good place to start!

http://www.lightobject.com/JLD612-Dual-Display-PID-Temperature-Controller-P43.aspx

ryclo said:

Just build a simple one at first. You need a GFCI, PID controller (with heat sink), 40-60 amp SSR, temperature probe, low watt density element and an enclosure... If your creative, you can get it all for around $100.00 or so...

Here is a good place to start!

http://www.lightobject.com/JLD612-Dual-Display-PID-Temperature-Controller-P43.aspx

Click to expand...

If the plan is for more functionality down the road, you might be better off getting one of the auber PIDs that supports manual mode instead. They are only $10 or so more expensive that that TET612 PID from lightobject. Either the auber or the one above will let you control a temp, but the auber also offers you the ability to control the strength of a boil.

FYI: There is nothing wrong with that TET612 PID from lightobject. I actually use one of those myself that I got on ebay from a different company for like $28. It works for temp control just dandy... it just can't control boils.

I'm currently doing a cost comparison between PID and PWM options... the PID is shaking out about twice as much as the PWM. I really wish I knew more about this stuff though, I really don't know if I have all the parts I need.

Does anyone have a parts list for a VERY basic PID or PWM control?

And to be clear, due to my lack of electrical knowledge, I plan on having a licensced electrician look at my work before anything is powered up.

a PID will probably be MORE THAN twice as much as a PWM, but you don't have the control with a PWM that you have for a PID.

You can build a PWM for literally $5 or less with parts from an electronics retailer. You might get killed on the shipping though. You can buy the stuff at Radio Shack, but you will pay through the nose for it.

i can give you a list of parts from mouser.com for a PWM, just like the one I built and use, but I can't comment on the shipping. I bought the PWM parts at the same time as I bought a bunch of other stuff.

That would be great... I'm trying to pull together an idea of the cost, so I can start dropping hints to the fiance

I need to include everything involved to get power from the wall to the kettle... once I have a parts list, i can figure out the best deals on shipping.

Thanks so much for your help!

Components for a PWM at mouser.com. Item total: $1.88

https://www.mouser.com/ProjectManager/ProjectDetail.aspx?AccessID=42dabdadd1

like I said... no idea what shipping would be.

I soldered it all down to a small circuit board from Radio Shack (this is 2 boards for $2.19)
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103799

The whole thing is powered by an old cell-phone charger and looks like this:

updated previous post with a link to radio shack's circuit board. I finally found it.

Walker said:

a PID will probably be MORE THAN twice as much as a PWM, but you don't have the control with a PWM that you have for a PID.

You can build a PWM for literally $5 or less with parts from an electronics retailer. You might get killed on the shipping though. You can buy the stuff at Radio Shack, but you will pay through the nose for it.

i can give you a list of parts from mouser.com for a PWM, just like the one I built and used, but I can't comment on the shipping. I bought the PWM parts at the same time as I bought a bunch of other stuff.

Click to expand...

Fixed that for ya.

onthekeg said:

Fixed that for ya.

Click to expand...

whoops! thanks. I corrected the original post, too.

Even with the low cost of the PWM itself, it looks like I'll be around $140 after buying the element, SSR, Heat sinks, cords, enclosure, switch, etc - and that's before shipping.

Maybe I'm better off with getting the Electric Brew Heater mentioned earlier? Will the 15" heater boil 5 gallons in a 15 gallon boilermaker?

Sorry that i'm all over the place here...

staab016 said:

Even with the low cost of the PWM itself, it looks like I'll be around $140 after buying the element, SSR, Heat sinks, cords, enclosure, switch, etc - and that's before shipping.

Maybe I'm better off with getting the Electric Brew Heater mentioned earlier? Will the 15" heater boil 5 gallons in a 15 gallon boilermaker?

Sorry that i'm all over the place here...

Click to expand...

I'm not coming up with the same estimate. Assuming you want to build a 120V/2000W kettle (closest match to the brew heater linked to earlier), and you have a 20A GFCI outlet to plug into already, I am estimating:

PWM = $10 (that's probably pessimistic on shipping)
SSR+heatsink = $12 (ebay)
element = $17 (local hardware)
mounting nut for element = $15 (includes shipping)
JB Weld and coupling to seal element = $7 (local hardware)
enclosure = $25 (local hardware)
power cord and receptacle = $20
switch = $8 (local hardware)

I'm under $115 there, and everything is local pick-up or includes shipping costs.
Going with a PID instead of a PWM will cost you an additional $30 or so, so I am seeing $140 for a PID based 120V/2000W system.

Now, having said all of that.... an element of that power (2000W or so) will be a pretty slow dog. You'll probably have to insulate your kettle, but you can probably brew with it. Just don't expect to get things done quickly.

The difference in my price was from using a 4500 or 5500 watt element in the kettle, and a 240v source. I figure, if i'm going to install the element into the kettle, I might as well install what i'll use when I actually complete the full set up... I probably should have included that bit of information

staab016 said:

The difference in my price was from using a 4500 or 5500 watt element in the kettle, and a 240v source. I figure, if i'm going to install the element into the kettle, I might as well install what i'll use when I actually complete the full set up... I probably should have included that bit of information

Click to expand...

I figured you wanted 240V but when you mentioned possibly buying the 2200W heat stick thing I started to wonder, and I tried to give and apples to apples comparison.

Jumping to 240V increases the costs of cables, plugs, receptacles. $140 seems about right unless you have to run a looooooong cable to get to tour 240V outlet.

Walker said:

I figured you wanted 240V but when you mentioned possibly buying the 2200W heat stick thing I started to wonder, and I tried to give and apples to apples comparison.

Jumping to 240V increases the costs of cables, plugs, receptacles. $140 seems about right unless you have to run a looooooong cable to get to tour 240V outlet.

Click to expand...

Yeah, I think I'll go with the PWM... I just question my ability to safely put something together without an idiot proof list of directions (like Kal's)

I built my electric brewery on the cheap when following Kal's build. I ended up with just one PID, one SSR, an old heatsink from a computer, an ammo box for enclosure, one 3 prong dryer outlet, temp probe, and GFCI 30amp cord from ebay for the control side. I have one element in each keggle with a 3 prong cord, that way when I want to heat the HLT I plug it in, when I want to boil, I switch to that plug.

Even trying to cut it down and using crap I already had, I bet I'm still up in the $300 range

$10 temp probe
$10 JB weld
$50 auber PID (http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1&products_id=106)
$75 GFCI Cord
$10 ammo box for enclosure (already had this though)
$20 SSR
$10 Misc wire
$35 two elements
$20 nuts for elements
$20 Two 3 prong dryer cords
$20 Dryer outlet and 30 amp switch for turning off whole system
$20 random other stuff I've forgotten

It's hard to know what to include, since I added a pump as well since you won't be picking up and dumping a keggle with a huge cord sticking out of it. So that means you need dip tubes and silicone house and quick disconnects. I suppose if you do this as a one vessel system using BIAB you could really cut costs, then have the ability to expand. Possible you could get away without a diptube as well, just cool your wort and siphon.

If you know your batch size will always be 5 gallons you could also go the route of two elements. You'll have to find the threads around here, but I know some people who have two 2000W elements in their kettle. For heating they plug both in (separate GFCI protected circuits!) and then when they get up to boiling they unplug one. This only gives you really really basic control, but you could throw that together for under $50 if you already have two GFCI protected circuits around. This would also be slower to get to boil than a 5500W element, but not horribly so I imagine. If your boil is too anemic you might need to insulate your keg/pot some.

How about, you know, SWITCHES?

I use regular 20A household switches to control my pumps and elements. They are "waterproofed" using gaskets, silicone and outdoor switch covers. This is supposed to be temporary, until I get either some PID's or a brewtroller, but it works great as is.

The switches and "always on" GFCI outlets are in the front, under a clear cover.




The switched outlets are on the back, out of the way.

a switch seems like an option too... is it safe to turn a 220v switch on and off repeatedly to maintain a temperature?

they sell switches that are rated for 30A/240V at lowe's & home depot, but any mechanical switching device will eventually wear out with lots of on/off flipping.

you could also buy two ssr's and use a switch and a dc wall adapter to turn them on and off!

ryclo said:

you could also buy two ssr's and use a switch and a dc wall adapter to turn them on and off!

Click to expand...

This. Also, you could then build a super simple PWM circuit that you can control with a pot to feed the SSR. These circuits can easily be googled, you'll find them on beginner electronics websites. You turn the pot to adjust the pwm duty cycle and it switches the SSR. Cheap, easy, safe-ish (safe if you know what you're doing, that is).

Walker said:

they sell switches that are rated for 30A/240V at lowe's & home depot, but any mechanical switching device will eventually wear out with lots of on/off flipping.

Click to expand...

Could one use the 30amp switches as a temporary setup. I plan to also go electric but funds are short at the moment and was wondering the same as the original post.


Thanks

Rock Chalk

Chris

It seems that there is much more interest in electric brew stands than before.

One good point to keep an eye on as you decide to go electric: It will likely cost more than you think. It'll most certainly cost you more than what people here quote.

I see SOOOO many posts from people saying "It's not expensive... It only cost me $X!" when in fact these people rarely take the time to actually list each item they had to purchase (we subconsciously like to forget expendatures) and/or they've completely forgotten half the things they used, and/or they had a bunch of stuff already around.

Whenever someone says "it should cost you $X", assume it's at least 2 times X.

Kal

@Walker

What do you mean by control boils? <-stupid question I'm sure!

emerex said:

@Walker

What do you mean by control boils? <-stupid question I'm sure!

Click to expand...

I am talking about the strength of the boil. Just like with propane burners or your stove-top, you can gently boil something on low heat or you can crank up the dial and boil the **** out of it.

In either of those two scenarios, the temp of the liquid is the same, but the vigor of the boil is very different.

A controller that operates only based on temp cannot control your boil strength.

I work with controlls for a living, but I've never done anything to do with heating. I was curious what sensor you'd use to measure boil aggressivness? Temp probe at the top of the kettle with a low-pass filter? Humidity sensor?

kal said:

One good point to keep an eye on as you decide to go electric: It will likely cost more than you think. It'll most certainly cost you more than what people here quote.

I see SOOOO many posts from people saying "It's not expensive... It only cost me $X!" when in fact these people rarely take the time to actually list each item they had to purchase (we subconsciously like to forget expendatures) and/or they've completely forgotten half the things they used, and/or they had a bunch of stuff already around.

Whenever someone says "it should cost you $X", assume it's at least 2 times X.

Kal

Click to expand...

I'm learning this very quickly. I've been lurking your site for a while now, and figuring out exactly how much it's going to cost... I need to give my fiance a nice shopping spree when I'm done with all of this!

Kal, is there any news on a "package" version of your brewery? I definitely want to do the build myself, but tracking down parts and multiple shipping rates is killing me...

MazdaMatt said:

I work with controlls for a living, but I've never done anything to do with heating. I was curious what sensor you'd use to measure boil aggressivness? Temp probe at the top of the kettle with a low-pass filter? Humidity sensor?

Click to expand...

I don't know any electric brewers that use something to measure 'boil agressiveness'. Most simply boil with the heating element control in some sort of manual/duty cycle mode where the element is cycled on and off.

The feedback is your eyeballs. If it's not boiling agressively enough, increase the duty cycle.

Kal

staab016 said:

Kal, is there any news on a "package" version of your brewery? I definitely want to do the build myself, but tracking down parts and multiple shipping rates is killing me...

Click to expand...

Nope, not at this point. We've been focusing on the hard to build/obtain items first which meant the control panel in various forms from kit to pre-built. Heating element kits are basically available now too and pre-coiled HERMS coils are next. The rest is actually pretty easy to build yourself.

Kal

MazdaMatt said:

I was curious what sensor you'd use to measure boil aggressivness?

Click to expand...

This one:

Well that's not very creative or geeky at all!

Walker said:

This one:

Click to expand...

To be accurate, mine would be a lot more bloodshot on brew day.