Entering first competition advice

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IanP

IanP

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I am entering a competition for the first time and I'm unsure about one of the beers I'm entering. It's basically an English Pale Ale/Standard Bitter, style 8A, in most respects, but the grist contains some rye (13%), oats (7%) and wheat (7%). Does this mean it no longer belongs in this style category? Should I mention these additions in the Notes section of the entry form for this beer? Or just enter it in 8A without mentioning these details? I'm not sure what the right thing to do is - any advice would be very helpful!
Cheers!
 
I've only entered a handful of competitions, but I think the general consensus is that if the additions add something that isn't in the style (i.e. it's cloudy when it should be clear, or using crystal malt when style says 'no crystal malt'), then you might have a better chance in an experimental category. If, however, the characteristics of the beer still fit in the style even with the additions, just note them on the beer form and keep it in the regular category.
 
If the other grains make it taste, smell, or look out of style according to the guidelines, then it's not going to score well in that category, Even if you understand that it is out of style and why, all of your feedback is going to be about how it tastes, smells, or looks out of style, and not on what you might actually want to improve in your beer.

If you cannot find an appropriate category, I would put it in 23.
 
+1 to what weirdboy said. Remember that the judges don't get a copy of your recipe, so if you enter it as an English bitter, they are going to assume you tried to make a spot-on classic example of the style, and score you down if they perceive any inconsistent flavours, smells, appearance, etc. for that style. If your unconventional grain bill contributes any of these inconsistencies, they will be regarded as a flaw and you might consider category 23.

But category 23 is a hard one to do well in. A lot of judges think that all beers in this category have to be something 'special' or unique. If they spot a beer that tastes like another category (even if it is close), many judges will score you low and tell you that you should have entered it as something else (e.g., an English special bitter). Personally, I don't think this is in the spirit of the Specialty Beer Style, but I have seen it happen a lot.
 
I have a couple of recipes now that to me, taste just like bitter I used to drink in England. These recipes also have oats. I'm somehow concerned about having a style I have been drinking for 35 years being judged by people who may not have even ever tasted this style in it's native surroundings. I think this is part paranoia, and part common sense.

I guess my point is that I KNOW this is a good pint that properly represents my native style. (Drinking one now, 'cos I'm brewing) If I entered it in a comp and it got low marks, then I would not bother again with comps if I were entering this category......If it tatses and feels how you intended, then it is a good brew.
 
Laughing_Gnome_Invisible said:
I guess my point is that I KNOW this is a good pint that properly represents my native style. (Drinking one now, 'cos I'm brewing) If I entered it in a comp and it got low marks, then I would not bother again with comps if I were entering this category......If it tatses and feels how you intended, then it is a good brew.
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Point taken, but one should try to be a bit tolerant here, too. Should one expect that all judges must travel overseas to master the recognition of each beer style before they can judge? I know you aren't suggesting that. The reality is that the judges have their own perception of the style based on the examples they have been able to find over here. If you get scored down because your beer tastes like an English pub bitter and not an 10 month old bottle of Fullers, like they were expecting, then you shouldn't feel badly (about your beer or the shortcomings of the judges). C'mon man -- judges are just people too!! Volunteers, at that -- cut em' some slack, dude. :fro:
 
FlyGuy said:
Point taken, but one should try to be a bit tolerant here, too. Should one expect that all judges must travel overseas to master the recognition of each beer style before they can judge? I know you aren't suggesting that. The reality is that the judges have their own perception of the style based on the examples they have been able to find over here. If you get scored down because your beer tastes like an English pub bitter and not an 10 month old bottle of Fullers, like they were expecting, then you shouldn't feel badly (about your beer or the shortcomings of the judges). C'mon man -- judges are just people too!! Volunteers, at that -- cut em' some slack, dude. :fro:
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I understand that entirely! That's why I mentioned the paranoia thang! ;)

I am probably just priming myself to deal with the disapointment of being crap in competition. :D

I have every respect for the convention that is in place......I just live in my own little world when it comes to the style that got me into brewing in the first place. Bitter is a huge part of who I am. I just can't be told otherwise on that. :D
 
Thanks to all for the responses - a lot to think about! The BYO article linked to in the thread posted by Revvy makes for sobering reading, for me anyway. It sounds like doing well at competitions is something of a game, beyond being simply a measure of brewing skills. I haven't brewed anything with the intention of entering a comp (and I doubt I ever will), I'm just entering because many people have recommended it as a good way to get honest feedback, and I happen to very much like the beer I mentioned in the original question. I'm leaning towards entering it in 8A without adding any notes and see what happens. It would be interesting to see if the judges recognize any elements from the additions, and how they comment on them. It would be a real stretch to call this beer a cat 23 specialty - I'm sure it would look very unremarkable next to all the weird stuff lined up in that category. As a side note, I have volunteered to steward at the comp (another first for me), so I will ask the judges their opinion on what I should have done. I expect to learn a lot that day!

Thanks again for all the help:mug:
 
Laughing_Gnome_Invisible said:
I understand that entirely! That's why I mentioned the paranoia thang! ;)

I am probably just priming myself to deal with the disapointment of being crap in competition. :D

I have every respect for the convention that is in place......I just live in my own little world when it comes to the style that got me into brewing in the first place. Bitter is a huge part of who I am. I just can't be told otherwise on that. :D
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Ah yes, I understand. Methinks this style of beer is held close to your heart, approaching something near sacred. Perhaps a competition is not the right place for it then. I suspect your greatest fear is that your crafted and finely tuned recipe will not be appreciated by the judges? No? (You are probably right.)

Brew another style for competition! Something German perhaps -- those lagers are trivial to brew.... (wondering if Kaiser is following along -- ha ha -- jk).

Cheers :mug:
 
Speaking for judging experience, because of the strength of the Style Guide, it is entirely possible to judge a beer you are not familiar with or don't even like and do it accurately. I judged a flight of Belgians and was within a point or two of a guy who has written a book on Belgians and says "Nothing else is worth brewing".

Adjuncts are allowed in 8A, but if the rye is noticeable, I think that will be a problem.
 
FlyGuy said:
Methinks this style of beer is held close to your heart, approaching something near sacred. Perhaps a competition is not the right place for it then.
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I could never have put it better myself! Yup! That's about it! :D And to further complicate matters, i think the American judging guidelines are a bit too biased towards Burton and/or northern brews. I am from the south where you get the Old Thumper, Pompey Royal, Gale's HSB......Names that you don't see here.....Oh what a complicated web we weave! ;)
 
As a new-to-competition brewer myself, last year I entered some because I thought I had good beers. This year I'm entering (local) competitions to get the judging scores/comments back on most of my beers. If you don't brew 'to style', be prepared to be docked marks no matter how good YOU think a brew is. And don't take it personally. The judges are trained on to-style beers. They may find it tasty and appreciate it, but have to deduct marks for wrong hops, different malts, etc.

I made a kick-butt Pilsner which I dry hopped with Cascade hops. SLAM! But mighty tasty.

Good luck and have fun and enter often!
 
IanP said:
As a side note, I have volunteered to steward at the comp (another first for me), so I will ask the judges their opinion on what I should have done. I expect to learn a lot that day!:
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What competition? Is the the Knickerbocker Battle of the Brews in Albany in November?
 
david_42 said:
Speaking for judging experience, because of the strength of the Style Guide, it is entirely possible to judge a beer you are not familiar with or don't even like and do it accurately.
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Yeah but, if you are judging a style like 21A. Spice, Herb, or Vegetable Beer then shouldn't you at least appreciate the style???

I got an honorable mention at the Michigan Renn Fest, Brew Barons Beer Brawl, for my Chocolate Mole Porter (or as entered it in the contest as "Chocolate Chile Porter") I just got the sheets back last week.

And this was one of the final comments on the judging sheet.

"I don't know understand what prompts folks to put strange ingredients in otherwise good beer. Too Strange in weird spiciness for me, but ...I'm too traditional. Drinkable if you like peppery beer."

Then why the heck are they judging the category of beer called "Spiced, herb and vegetable beer, if that's their attitude? I also wonder if he wrote it on all the entrants sheets.

I wonder if the beer would have even ranked higher had he been more "open" to the style. Honestly I wouldn't judge a style I wasn't a fan of, like wheats for instance. I don't get any pleasure from them, so how can I not be biased as a judge?
 
IanP, your recipe makes no difference. It's all about the final product, how it fits within the guidelines, and how all the pieces work together to make a beer. You could put shiitake mushrooms and eye of newt in the brewkettle, and it makes no difference if your beer tastes like an Ordinary/Standard Bitter.

It is not a mistake to enter a non-conforming beer into a certain category, but it is a mistake to believe that the judges will score the beer as if the guidelines allowed for the non-conformity. Judges do not score beers as if certain aspects were not there. We judge what we get, as we get it.

Gnome, I agree that it's common to have a judge at a BJCP competition sit before a flight of Bitters (or other styles) that the judge has never actually drank at all, much less in a native environment. However, that is happening less and less as more judges get the chance to travel. Still, as FlyGuy said, we are just humble volunteers, and we do what we can.

I also agree that the guidelines are more influenced by the northern versions of the style, and I expect that is because those were the beers to break into the U.S. market earlier and more widely. Bass, Samuel Smiths, and (to a far lesser extent) Bateman's made most of the in-roads. Fuller's and Young's certainly were around, but Fuller's ESB seemed to scare some folks off for a while (I guess it was too big), and Young's only offering in many places was the now gone and sorely missed Oatmeal Stout.

Gale's HSB . . . yum! Chiswick Bitter . . . yum!


TL
 
ksocia said:
What competition? Is the the Knickerbocker Battle of the Brews in Albany in November?
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No, SNERHC, in CT, but I may enter/volunteer for the Albany comp too, depending on how I find the first experience (and if I decide to make the longer drive up to Albany). I haven't received confirmation of the stewarding gig at SNERHC, so even that's not certain yet (although I'll definitely enter the beers).
 
Also, don't bother with the notes on a style like 8A. If the competition is properly run, the judges should not receive any notes. They should judge solely according to the guidelines and their experiences with the proper commercial examples.


TL
 
Revvy said:
Then why the heck are they judging the category of beer called "Spiced, herb and vegetable beer, if that's their attitude?

Honestly I wouldn't judge a style I wasn't a fan of, like wheats for instance. I don't get any pleasure from them, so how can I not be biased as a judge?
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I absolutely agree that that judge should not have been judging that category if they don't understand the nature of the S/H/V category. Frankly, I would expect that anyone who would write that comment on a scoresheet would not make a good judge of hardly any categories, as that person seems like one of those "if I like it, it's good; if not, it's bad" judges that screw up competitions all over the place.

However, I also understand the reality of running a competition. In many competitions, especially the larger ones, you have pressure to get the entries judged. A lot of folks do not like to judge S/H/V or Specialty, so those often are the last ones left. Still, they have to be done. If you have a flight that needs to be judged, you have a ready and willing judge, and you have no better alternative, then you just might have to go with what you have and hope for the best. Keeping in mind that it may take a couple hours or so to judge a flight, you often cannot just wait for another judge to come around and bail you out. Also, keep in mind that an entrant is disqualified from judging a category where that entrant has entries. Especially in the case of S/H/V, you usually have the best prospective judges entered in the category, so you have to go with what's left.

It still ticks me off, though.


TL
 
TexLaw said:
I absolutely agree that that judge should not have been judging that category if they don't understand the nature of the S/H/V category. Frankly, I would expect that anyone who would write that comment on a scoresheet would not make a good judge of hardly any categories, as that person seems like one of those "if I like it, it's good; if not, it's bad" judges that screw up competitions all over the place.

However, I also understand the reality of running a competition. In many competitions, especially the larger ones, you have pressure to get the entries judged. A lot of folks do not like to judge S/H/V or Specialty, so those often are the last ones left. Still, they have to be done. If you have a flight that needs to be judged, you have a ready and willing judge, and you have no better alternative, then you just might have to go with what you have and hope for the best. Keeping in mind that it may take a couple hours or so to judge a flight, you often cannot just wait for another judge to come around and bail you out. Also, keep in mind that an entrant is disqualified from judging a category where that entrant has entries. Especially in the case of S/H/V, you usually have the best prospective judges entered in the category, so you have to go with what's left.

It still ticks me off, though.


TL
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I've thought about emailing the heads of the competition, or at least mentioning it to the head of the Brew Club that sponsored the event (The pres is a member here) just to let them know. Not to complain really, but I personally do think it's bad form to make comments like that on competition sheets. Think I should?
 
I think i would just like to reiterate that I think the BJCP does a wonderful job, and that it is great that their qualified judges work hard to be as realistic as honest as they can be. As TexLaw says, they will only improve. The beer thing in the US is a progressive movement.

I can't and do not expect an American jury to be nearly as familiar with a style from 4000 miles away that I have been drinking for 35 years (Almost non stop :D)

If I entered a bitter in a BJCP competition that I thought was a good example of a beer from my specific region and it was marked badly, I would not take exception to that. however, I would take into account that the judges are probably unfamiliar with the local style.

This is beer, it is an art, it's not mathematics! :)
 
Revvy said:
I've thought about emailing the heads of the competition, or at least mentioning it to the head of the Brew Club that sponsored the event (The pres is a member here) just to let them know. Not to complain really, but I personally do think it's bad form to make comments like that on competition sheets. Think I should?
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It would not be appropriate to complain to the pres of the sponsoring brew club, but it would be a good idea to express your complaint to the Competition Organizer and/or Judge Director of the competition. That sort of response is not appropriate from trained judges and it is not welcome at any properly run competition. And if that was a BJCP judge, they should know better (AND be expected to do better) as such negativity is goes against the guidelines that all BJCP judges are expected to follow.
 
Revvy said:
I've thought about emailing the heads of the competition, or at least mentioning it to the head of the Brew Club that sponsored the event (The pres is a member here) just to let them know. Not to complain really, but I personally do think it's bad form to make comments like that on competition sheets. Think I should?
Click to expand...

I agree with FlyGuy. The organizer is the best contact, unless you know who the Head Judge (or Judge Coordinator or Judge Director or whatever) is and can contact that person directly. If that judge holds a BJCP rank, you also can contact the BJCP. The penalties for what that judge did are fairly minimal, if any are imposed at all, unless that judge has a proven track record of problems. Still, the value is in educating that judge about what is appropriate. I would like to think that we all would like to improve our own judging skills and see the quality of judging continue to rise overall.

If you know the President of the club that sponsored the competition, then there is nothing really wrong with telling him, but it would be for the purpose of him passing the matter along to the organizer or Head Judge.


TL
 
One thing to consider doing, which I do, is that whenever you bottle a batch of beer, no matter what type of bottle you use, ALWAYS bottle at least 1 (if not two) six packs of standard 12 ounce brown bottles, with no markings on the shoulders (don't use sam adams or bud american ale bottles which have glass etchings on them) that way you always have a few bottles for entering contests.

I usually only enter 2 contests a year, so I always reserve 1 sixer of every beer I brew throughout the year for entries.

Then when it comes to late summer I put 1 bottle of each sixer in the fridge for a week, then I taste it and see if I feel it's contest worthy. If that's the case then I enter 2 bottles of each of them in the two contests I do.

After that I then need to determine what style to enter it into, remember, the article I gave you said that your beer may not ACTUALLY be the style you think it is. For example since I might be entering a beer that I have sat on for several month, that IPA I brewed at Christmas, may now have lost some of it's uber hoppiness, and it may actually now taste like a very good PALE ALE instead. That porter I made, may not really be a porter, maybe I didn't hit my numbers and it's not the right ABV or FG of a porter, and it may actually be more like a brown ale....

Or maybe if I have enough bottles, I might enter it into both categories, as a brown and a porter.

THEN usually on the weekend that I know they are judging the first contest I enter, I put the last bottle of sixer in the fridge, just to make sure there's no late onset bottle gushing infection or something, and to get a feel for the beer at the point I know they are judging it.

Obviously I don't enter every beer I make in that year in contests, only the ones I think are stellar....and some of them have the luxury of haiving bottle conditioned for maybe a year, so some of those are really awesome. This year I entered 4 beers in one contest and 5 in another, and got honorable mentions for two of them.

The other beers I didn't enter, I stored a couple of each sixer and then drank the rest.

I never "brew for contests" a wise brewer suggest not to once, and it makes sense....I just make the best beer I can, then at contest time, I sit down and see which I feel are contest worthy, or I am really curious about what judges have to say (on the few times I really get a good critique.)
 
That sounds like a great way to work it, Revvy!

To everyone else out there, for planning purposes, just be aware that many of the larger competitions out there ask for three bottles (or, you can enter two and just be disqualified from Best of Show judging, should you make it that far).

Me? I don't enter much at all. I don't tend to brew to style, and I can get all the feedback I want from folks that are either objective or might even be harder on my beer because they know me. If I do have something that is fairly good, close enough to a style to get good feedback, and the spirit so moves me, I will enter. However, I just bottle out of the keg for that.


TL
 
Thanks for all the advice!

The reason I'm able to enter this comp is because I started bottling a six pack of 12oz bottles in each batch a few months ago. I'm certain I picked up that advice on HBT so it's entirely possible it was a previous posting from Revvy that set me right back then.

This comp says we should enter 2 or 3 bottles, at risk missing out on BoS if there's only 2. Something tells me I needn't worry about that third bottle this time around...
 
TexLaw said:
That sounds like a great way to work it, Revvy!

To everyone else out there, for planning purposes, just be aware that many of the larger competitions out there ask for three bottles (or, you can enter two and just be disqualified from Best of Show judging, should you make it that far).

Me? I don't enter much at all. I don't tend to brew to style, and I can get all the feedback I want from folks that are either objective or might even be harder on my beer because they know me. If I do have something that is fairly good, close enough to a style to get good feedback, and the spirit so moves me, I will enter. However, I just bottle out of the keg for that.


TL
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Thanks!

I haven't come across any that asked for three yet. But that's good heads up to have. I know that Longshot asks for 4 and I was going to enter one of mine, but didn't have enough. But the point is to set aside some of each batch of beer for potential contests, and like Txlaw just said, plan ahead and make sure you have enough.

And don't think because you are setting beer aside you'll be wasting it. Any of those that you don't choose to submit, you can still drink! :D
 
Bumping this thread with an update. The competition was yesterday, with my English Pale Ale entered in 8A with no additional notes added. It scored 39 points and won the combined Cat 8 A/B/C!! As if that wasn't cool enough my other entry in the category, an ESB, came second :ban:

Many thanks to all who gave advice! :mug:
 

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