Split batch of YB's Melange, Farmhouse Sour and Saison Brett

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kbindera

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I brewed an 18 gallon batch on Saturday (3/14/15). Into split primary with Yeast Bay's Saison Brett, Melange and Farmhouse Sour. I have the carboys sitting in a 50-55 degree basement with fermwraps around them that keep them in the 70-72 range.

I approximated the Rare Barrel’s grain bill for their red beer (thanks to info from the Sour Hour), based on what I had around:
70% floor malted 2-row from Valley Malt
11.6% pale wheat
4.6% aromatic malt
4.6% spelt from Valley Malt
2.3% crystal 80
2.3% crystal 20
(I didn’t have crystal 60 on hand)
2.3% flaked oats
2.3% flaked wheat

Mashed at 152. Used a touch of lactic acid in the mash to get pH to 5.3. 1.074 wort went into the three fermenters.

I debated whether to do starters with these three blends, as I wasn’t sure if I would F up the sack/brett/bacteria ratios (is that even a valid concern?). But I decided to make 1600ml starters @ 1.030. These went for three days with minimal aeration (no stir plate), sitting on a cool kitchen counter (mid-low 60’s). I cold crashed the starters and decanted (they all tasted pretty good, BTW, with Farmhouse sour being my favorite).

The Melange beer is going crazy and blowing its krausen out the top of the fermenter. The others took off nicely too. The Saison Brett’s krausen has now dropped out and is starting to form a clear pellicle with clear bubbles about and inch wide and 1/2 inch high, and a bunch of little tiny bubbles that look kind of like carbonation. It kind of looks like what I remember happening with the Da Bom blend beer I did last summer.

Anyway, I’ll update this thread with pH readings, tasting notes, etc. I’m also open to any suggestions. At some point, I was thinking about moving these guys to a warmer part of the house and getting them into the high 70’s-80’s, or getting them into my ferm chamber when space frees up (I have Vermont Ale IIPA in there). Thoughts?
 
3x 6 gallon batches huh.... Im new to brewing sours but from what ive read its fine to just pitch and not mess up the ratios. i think that IS a valid concern. I saw another thread where the OP made a starter and the saac just dominated the blend and didnt get much sourness at all. i think it was the starter that was the issue.
 
I saw another thread where the OP made a starter and the saac just dominated the blend and didnt get much sourness at all. i think it was the starter that was the issue.

I guess we'll see with mine. I'd like to read that post you mention. From my perspective, there can be many things that might hinder the development of sourness: ferment temp, IBU, not being patient...
I'm not expecting any sourness from Farmhouse Brett but I'll see what happens with the other two.
 
Subbed to follow your progress. I just ordered some YB blends to play around with. Melange was sold out, but got a Farmhouse Sour and a couple of the Brett blends.

Making a starter with the blends would change the proportions, but I doubt it would make a big difference.

If it was me, I probably wouldn't push the sour blends into the 80's (maybe the Saison Brett if it wasn't attenuating), but I don't have a good scientific reason behind that.

btw, where are you in the city?
 
I guess we'll see with mine. I'd like to read that post you mention. From my perspective, there can be many things that might hinder the development of sourness: ferment temp, IBU, not being patient...
I'm not expecting any sourness from Farmhouse Brett but I'll see what happens with the other two.

Very true. There are so many factors that go into determining how quickly a beer will sour, it's impossible to point to just one. I made some turbid mash wort I split and pitched small starters of Melange and Farmhouse Sour Ale into, and both were noticeably sour at around 2 months. Didn't take a pH reading on the Farmhouse Sour Ale, but the Melange was at pH 3.34 at that time.

Starters are more than okay with our sour blends. Saccharomyces will dominate the front end of fermentation regardless, so don't fear making a starter for that reason. We recommend a shorter/cooler/semi-aerobic starter to favor the yeast so it gets off to a quick start and does not allow the LAB to become too active too fast, which can drop the starter pH and affect the growth of the yeast.

If you want sourness, I would focus on keeping the IBU low and making sure there are fermentables for the LAB. Unlike Brett in which the flavor compound production is not directly tied to the amount of available carbon source, lactic acid is a metabolic byproduct created from the metabolism of a carbon source. They need something to metabolize to create lactic acid. One thing to keep in mind is that sourness created from these longer chain dextrins will form more slowly, as I don't believe the LAB metabolize these dextrins as quickly as they so simpler carbon sources like simple sugars.
 
One thing to keep in mind is that sourness created from these longer chain dextrins will form more slowly, as I don't believe the LAB metabolize these dextrins as quickly as they so simpler carbon sources like simple sugars.


Thanks for the follow up. Wondering if the addition of a simple sugar later in the fermentation (after sacc has done it's work) could accelerate the LAB. Perhaps if the temp was in an optimal range for LAB?

Or maybe the brett would just go to town on it.

Also, if I recall correctly, you have pedio in the Melange blend. Does it metabolize in the same way as lacto?
 
Thanks for the follow up. Wondering if the addition of a simple sugar later in the fermentation (after sacc has done it's work) could accelerate the LAB. Perhaps if the temp was in an optimal range for LAB?

Or maybe the brett would just go to town on it.

Also, if I recall correctly, you have pedio in the Melange blend. Does it metabolize in the same way as lacto?

We have a hetero- and homofermentative strain of Lactobacillus and a single strain of Pediococcus in Melange. Pediococcus is homofermentative (all are, I believe), and I'm not sure they can metabolize large carbohydrates with large degrees of polymenrization like Lactobacillus brevis and Brettanomyces present in the culture can, which create the alpha glucosidase enzyme.
 
Many don't make starters for sours...but many are making sours more in the 1040-1050 range. Doing a starter for a big beer like 1074, is wise.

I did a big, stir plate starter for brett saison, turned out great. I purposely underpitch one of Bio's strains due to my experience with it. Most average beers would probably be fine just pitching, if kept under 1050. Ive also done sour beers up into the 80s that were great. Brett and LAB do their work better at higher temps, something to keep in mind if not using a sacch yeast.
 
Many don't make starters for sours...but many are making sours more in the 1040-1050 range. Doing a starter for a big beer like 1074, is wise.

I did a big, stir plate starter for brett saison, turned out great. I purposely underpitch one of Bio's strains due to my experience with it. Most average beers would probably be fine just pitching, if kept under 1050. Ive also done sour beers up into the 80s that were great. Brett and LAB do their work better at higher temps, something to keep in mind if not using a sacch yeast.

Which Brett blend did you underpitch? The Lochristi? A number of people have done that with that blend and gotten massive strawberry esters, stronger than when using a large pitch.

A lot of folks definitely don't make a starter for sours. I usually do a small (500 mL) quick (24 hours) semi-aerobic starter. Just gets the yeast going and I see fermentation start a lot faster than just pitching a vial. Made great sours both ways though!
 
Which Brett blend did you underpitch? The Lochristi? A number of people have done that with that blend and gotten massive strawberry esters, stronger than when using a large pitch.

A lot of folks definitely don't make a starter for sours. I usually do a small (500 mL) quick (24 hours) semi-aerobic starter. Just gets the yeast going and I see fermentation start a lot faster than just pitching a vial. Made great sours both ways though!

Yes that was me who des the 200k/ml Lochrist pitch in a sour red, and did the Project with Wiley last week. Kyle gifted me the left over of the Lochristi, I think if my math is right I will go with about 200cc for a 1/2bbl batch, once the LHBS gets Red X back in stock.

The Wiley barrels took off in under 24 hours, btw!
 
Yes that was me who des the 200k/ml Lochrist pitch in a sour red, and did the Project with Wiley last week. Kyle gifted me the left over of the Lochristi, I think if my math is right I will go with about 200cc for a 1/2bbl batch, once the LHBS gets Red X back in stock.

The Wiley barrels took off in under 24 hours, btw!

Are you talking 200cc of yeast slurry, or a small starter? Also, is that for a primary ferment with the blend, no other yeast added?
 
Sorry, should've kept business chat off the thread :)

That was a custom pitch from Bio directly, from 7Bbl pitch flask. It was as primary, an extremely underpitched primary, on purpose for a specific reason. This was ordered at a set known cell count, not grown up or anything
 
A quick pH update here:
Carboy's still sitting with fermwraps. Temp stickers read 74 degrees.
pH of Melange @ 4.14
pH of Farmhouse Sour @ 4.32
 
pH of Saison Brett is 4.53. It's also down to 1.012. Not expecting a big pH drop here.

The nose is ripe melon, wet hay and almonds.
Taste is lemon, honey dew melon with an earthy spiciness. All very subtle.
Very pleased with this so far. Looking forward to seeing how it develops in the coming months.
Not planning a gravity reading on the others just yet. Going to give them a bit more time to sour up.
 
Details from samples pulled on 5/14:

Farmhouse Sour
Down to 1.001
pH - 3.89
Noticed a clear bubbly pellicle (bubbles about an inch high) forming during the first week of May. Was fully in place by the 7th, then dropped out by the 14th.
An apricot aroma and flavor is pretty prominent.
Beer has a nice body and slight spice character.
Earthiness is there but subtle.
I plan to rack this beer onto 5 pounds of apricots in the coming weeks.
Of the three beers, this one is my favorite. It tastes great.

Melange
Down to 1.010
pH - 4.0
This beer formed a big gnarly pellicle very early on. It just dropped a day or two before I took the sample.
Beer has kind of a cider character (reminds me of the character I got from the Wyeast Da Bom blend)
Spicy pepper dominates the flavor and not getting much aroma.
Has a similar earthiness to the Farmhouse Sour. Kind of a wet hay thing.
I have heard/read that this blend throws off strawberry notes and I can pick out subtle hints in the flavor (may just be that I went in looking for them).
Planning to give this another few months before tasting again. It has a ways to go.

Saison Brett
Down to 1.005
pH - 4.46
Haven’t noticed a prominent pellicle on this.
A subtle aroma of Almonds.
Malt sweetness character comes through and is pleasant, great mouthfeel. I keep thinking of almond butter.
The lemon and spice are still there, getting a bit stronger. Not picking up the melon character I got when I tasted last month.
This is good saison so far and I could put it on tap now and be very happy with it. But I plan to let it sit for another month, taste again, and maybe dry hop.
 
Details from samples pulled on 5/14:

Farmhouse Sour
Down to 1.001
pH - 3.89
Noticed a clear bubbly pellicle (bubbles about an inch high) forming during the first week of May. Was fully in place by the 7th, then dropped out by the 14th.
An apricot aroma and flavor is pretty prominent.
Beer has a nice body and slight spice character.
Earthiness is there but subtle.
I plan to rack this beer onto 5 pounds of apricots in the coming weeks.
Of the three beers, this one is my favorite. It tastes great.

Melange
Down to 1.010
pH - 4.0
This beer formed a big gnarly pellicle very early on. It just dropped a day or two before I took the sample.
Beer has kind of a cider character (reminds me of the character I got from the Wyeast Da Bom blend)
Spicy pepper dominates the flavor and not getting much aroma.
Has a similar earthiness to the Farmhouse Sour. Kind of a wet hay thing.
I have heard/read that this blend throws off strawberry notes and I can pick out subtle hints in the flavor (may just be that I went in looking for them).
Planning to give this another few months before tasting again. It has a ways to go.

Saison Brett
Down to 1.005
pH - 4.46
Haven’t noticed a prominent pellicle on this.
A subtle aroma of Almonds.
Malt sweetness character comes through and is pleasant, great mouthfeel. I keep thinking of almond butter.
The lemon and spice are still there, getting a bit stronger. Not picking up the melon character I got when I tasted last month.
This is good saison so far and I could put it on tap now and be very happy with it. But I plan to let it sit for another month, taste again, and maybe dry hop.

Glad these are working out pretty well for you. Surprised the Melange isn't lower in pH. Every time I use that and Farmhouse Sour Ale on a split batch, Melange always drops faster. Seems like it has a lot more to munch on at the the current gravity though, so keep the temp in the 70's and the acidity should get rolling for you. Keep us updated. Cheers!
 
Very cool thread. Been wanting to try more from yeastbay and this is great info on them. Sub'd to see the final results!
 
Very cool thread. Been wanting to try more from yeastbay and this is great info on them. Sub'd to see the final results!


Thanks Finsfan! I finally have almost everything in place to do wholesale in the US, which took me a lot longer to figure out than I thought it was going to. Hopefully by the end of summer, you'll be able to go to your LHBS and grab some more Yeast Bay products. Cheers!
 
Thanks Finsfan! I finally have almost everything in place to do wholesale in the US, which took me a lot longer to figure out than I thought it was going to. Hopefully by the end of summer, you'll be able to go to your LHBS and grab some more Yeast Bay products. Cheers!


Unfortunately for me, but maybe fortunately for you, the lhbs is two hours so the couple times I've gotten your yeast has been direct from the website haha.
 
Unfortunately for me, but maybe fortunately for you, the lhbs is two hours so the couple times I've gotten your yeast has been direct from the website haha.


When I go wholesale to the U.S. for homebrew vials/pouches, I'll definitely keep my online store open for folk like you!
 
Farmhouse Sour beer was racked onto four pounds of apricots and four pounds of rhubarb on 5/23.
 
Farmhouse Sour beer was racked onto four pounds of apricots and four pounds of rhubarb on 5/23.


Are the apricots and rhubarb in the same secondary, or did you split the Farmhouse Sour fermented wort into different secondaries and add different fruits each? Excited to hear about your results!
 
Hell Ya. I have a Melange fermented wort, half on Apriums + oak and half on dried cherries soaked in cabernet sauvignon + oak. Happy to trade those too!
 
A bit delayed in getting an update posted from my last sample. Samples pulled 6/18/15:

Also note that I am no longer heating these carboys with firmwraps. Pulled those off as the temp came up out here in late May. They sit between 66-68F in my basement.

Saison Brett
1.005
pH 4.38
Almonds, cherries, stone fruit, spice. Lime zest. Malt character is there. Brilliant clarity.

Melange
1.010
pH 3.82
Picking up a woody/oak character. Blackberry/strawberry. The cider character I picked up in the last tasting seems to have evolved into kind of a vinous tannin, best way I can describe it. If you gave me this sample blind, I’d swear it had been sitting in a barrel. Beer maintains a substantial haze, compared to Saison Brett.
Pellicle seems to be reforming.

Farmhouse Sour
1.004
pH 3.59
Tartness is coming along nicely and the fruit addition (apricot/rhubarb) comes through. Rhubarb is pretty pronounced on the nose and apricot comes through in the flavor, along with the rhubarb. Malt character of the beer stands up and there is still an earthiness. Brilliant clarity.
 
Updates from 6/30:

Melange:
Nice gnarly pellicle had reformed when I peeked in on 6/22/15. Planning to let this one sit for a few more months before sampling again.

Saison Brett:
Did a few dry hop editions:
-6/26/15 - 1 oz. 2014 Azaca pellets
-6/30/15 - 3 oz. 2013 Galaxy pellets (the last of my supply)
Let’s give this beer some hop glycosides to chew on (and hope I didn’t screw it up with too much hops).

Farmhouse Sour:
1.004
pH: 3.5
Racked to keg. Pitched a vial of YB’s Beersel Brett blend into the keg. Purged with CO2 and shook some CO2 in, just a bit. Plan to let the Brett sit in the keg under pressure for a few weeks before tasting. I could have put this on tap now, it tastes great. I just wanted a bit more complexity. A friend happened to give me a vial of Beersel and YB’s description of it calls out “fruitiness”. What the heck, let’s do this.
 
Sounds great. Thank you for the updates. I just did a pale sour with Melange vs Wyeast Lambic blend/Cuvée Rene dregs. Forgot to measure the wort pH but am tracking temps and will pull samples for pH in a week or so. at Day 4 now. Cooled in at 64f and have been letting rise about 2 deg per day. Thinking now middle 70s should be a good temp. Melange starter had a nice mineral lemony aroma/flavor while the Wyeast was much darker in color and mostly funky Brett in profile. Dregs went into wort after 24 h not in the starter.
 
Sounds great. Thank you for the updates. I just did a pale sour with Melange vs Wyeast Lambic blend/Cuvée Rene dregs. Forgot to measure the wort pH but am tracking temps and will pull samples for pH in a week or so. at Day 4 now. Cooled in at 64f and have been letting rise about 2 deg per day. Thinking now middle 70s should be a good temp. Melange starter had a nice mineral lemony aroma/flavor while the Wyeast was much darker in color and mostly funky Brett in profile. Dregs went into wort after 24 h not in the starter.

Mid-70's will definitely work for Melange Blend. I've been more in the 70-72 range and it works well. At something like 6 or 8 weeks it was approximately at pH 3.30. I am inclined to believe that sour beers achieve a better balance between sourness and Brett character when done at lower temperatures, in the 60's. It was interesting to hear Vinnie talk about that on The Sour Hour and how the temperature profile for Beatification changed over the years.
 
Interesting. Ive drained the water from igloo cooler so they're likely sitting at low 70s in den. One of chest freezers died so Im using igloo water cooler containers w water and ice. Letting it ride now. Sour in 6 weeks is good. How long to let it condition? Several months? What about doing that in keg cold under pressure? As long as diacetyl is gone?
 
Interesting. Ive drained the water from igloo cooler so they're likely sitting at low 70s in den. One of chest freezers died so Im using igloo water cooler containers w water and ice. Letting it ride now. Sour in 6 weeks is good. How long to let it condition? Several months? What about doing that in keg cold under pressure? As long as diacetyl is gone?

My advice with sours is once terminal gravity is reached, taste periodically to determine when the flavor matures to the point you want it to. Really hard to put a hard date on it. Our Farmhouse Sour Ale and Melange haven't produced copiously hi amounts of diacetyl in our experience, but yes, If you're getting some, let it age out a little more so the yeast can re-uptake.
 
My advice with sours is once terminal gravity is reached, taste periodically to determine when the flavor matures to the point you want it to. Really hard to put a hard date on it. Our Farmhouse Sour Ale and Melange haven't produced copiously hi amounts of diacetyl in our experience, but yes, If you're getting some, let it age out a little more so the yeast can re-uptake.


Melange sour is at 3.17 ! No hops in wort. Still sitting at mid 74 deg F. It's super acidic to the taste. I'm getting hints of butyric and maybe isovaleric but maybe it's just so sour my taste buds are off. Reminds me of some funkier Lambics. Pretty intense now. Going to let this one age out to see if the favors develop and soften some. Crazy bugs in this. It will certainly be a blending beer not to be consumed straight. I have ~ 60 gals of funky, sour beers to blend it with so that should help. Next time I'll use some hops to try and lesson the acidity as per Biobrewer's comments.


Oh and no diacetyl!
 
Melange sour is at 3.17 ! No hops in wort. Still sitting at mid 74 deg F. It's super acidic to the taste. I'm getting hints of butyric and maybe isovaleric but maybe it's just so sour my taste buds are off. Reminds me of some funkier Lambics. Pretty intense now. Going to let this one age out to see if the favors develop and soften some. Crazy bugs in this. It will certainly be a blending beer not to be consumed straight. I have ~ 60 gals of funky, sour beers to blend it with so that should help. Next time I'll use some hops to try and lesson the acidity as per Biobrewer's comments.


Oh and no diacetyl!

Any update on these? The Melange blend specifically?
 
Yes. No more valeric. All butyric turned into awesome pineapple. Peaked around 7 months (?) for pineapple. Acidity has softened although pH is same. Light brett character with pineapple still there. To drink it straight Id want some tannins from fruit or oak to round it out. Its perfect for blending. I'll likely put 1 gal on cherries for a kriek and keep aging the rest to see how it keeps evolving. About 1 year old or so now -less i think actually. My buddy (certified cicerone) said it reminded him of the straight lambics he had at Cantillon in Brussels. Suggested let it keep going as it should get better/more complex. Not sure what else it has to eat since its not in a bbl but maybe brett will consume what cake is in the fermenter.....

Im also using it to blend in some character to Saisons and other sours. I will brew this again either via solera or by buying more yeast. Really like flavor profile as of now. Crazy drinkable.
 
That's great to hear. There's not a ton of info around about reviews/results etc

I hopped to 3 IBU, so we'll see how quickly and strongly it sours. Sounds like it might get pretty sour, especially because I also pitched the dregs of Cuvee Rene as well

Have you tested the FG lately?
 
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