Newbie with fermentation questions.

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AussieCider

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Hi all! I'm Coen.
I'm new here, so I may as well introduce myself and give a bit of background. I'm a young aussie bloke studying for a Bachelor of Science in Viticulture and Oenology. I do like wine.....but I much prefer cider, so the way I see it, I will apply what I learn about growing grapes and making wine, to growing apples and making cider......one day....

Anyways, I have recently started a couple of VERY small batches of cider (1.5L each). The first is a very much blind batch, I bought some juice, threw some yeast in it and hey presto, it fermented. I didn't have a hydrometer at the time, so It really was a blind run. It has been fermenting for nearly a week now and I racked it to secondary yesterday. I can't really ask too much about that one, because I don't have enough detail to tell you guys. I will just have to play that one by ear.
What does confuse me however, is my second batch. I started with my juice, added some DAP as per the instructions, then added sugar to get an initial SG of 1060 and made a starting culture for the yeast. A few hours later I added the very active yeast to the juice and shortly after the airlock was bubbling away happily. It bubbled all night and the reading the next day gave me an SG of 1016. which, from what I have read is a HUGE drop over that time period. It bubbled for the next whole day and slowed to almost a stop the next day....with an SG of 1002.

It still has some little bubbles rising up in the cider. The solution is currently quite cloudy which I guess is to be expected.

What I am wondering about is this: Is my fermentation too fast? The way I see it, its nearly ready to be racked off to secondary.....and we are only 3 days in. I see people on here talking about spending 3 WEEKS in primary to get low enough SG to hit secondary. Did I add too much yeast? Have I done something wrong?

Another observation I have made is that the cider smells VERY yeasty. I guess this is to be expected....but I am not certain, any thoughts?
My budget (and the fact that I live in Aus.....AKA its bloody hot) only allow minimal temperature control. My cupboard seems to maintain a pretty constant 26C at the moment, which is the coolest I could find in the house.

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated people.
Thanks heaps in advance.
 
The biggest issue with fermenting too quickly is that the yeast might generate too much heat. High heat can generate off flavors. You didn't mention which yeast. Red wine yeasts tend to tolerate higher temperatures better. You probably added too much yeast. 1g per 4-5L is normal.

Yeast will struggle fermenting for a number of reasons, including low pH and lack of nutrients. IMO people who ferment their wine/cider/mead for months are doing it wrong. If the yeast is stressed, it's more likely to make sulfur and fusels than if it's happy and healthy.
 
That's pretty fast alright. Likely culprit is the heat. Doesn't mean it wont be good though, just be patient. Since you have little control over the heat of your fermentation space I would recommend using a yeast that can tolerate those temps in the future.

Don't worry about the yeasty smell.
 
Even if I reach terminal gravity within a few days (which I have never actually had happen) I'd probably still leave it in the primary vessel for at least a week and a half to two weeks. My theory is that it gives the yeast some time to clean up after themselves. This will also allow you to let the cider clear a little more. The more you let it settle in the primary, the less lees you'll have in secondary.
 
Wow. This place is great. Thanks so much guys.

I will keep the 1g/4-5L in mind for the next batch. Just one question though, that is 1g of dry yeast before it is activated right? I used a Champagne yeast, I can't remember it's exact name though. What would be some suggestions for good heat tolerant yeasts?

I nearly racked it last night just going from my Hydrometer readings, but I held off to read what everyone here had to say. It sounds like it would be a better idea to leave it at least for another week in primary, so I will do so.

I will update and let you guys know how it all goes once I get a bit further along with it.

I now have some new plans for the next batch: Higher heat tolerant yeast, less yeast in total and possibly looking at making my ferment space a little cooler, or finding a new one if suitable.

Thankyou all so much again. You have told me exactly what I needed to know, and then some!

Until next time :mug:
 
If you have access to Belgian yeasts, especially Saison yeasts, those would be ideal. I prefer ciders made with ale yeasts, in general. For a dry option I like Fermentis T-58. If those are not an option, I had pretty good success with Lalvin RC212 without any temp. control. After that I'd recommend K1V-1116, then EC-1118. Red Star sells EC-1118 as "Premier Cuvee." RC212 needs more nitrogen than the other two, so up the DAP by 1.5x when using it.

Steer clear of Montrachet. Cote des Blanc does OK if you can't find any of the other ones.

I like to taste every batch every time I take a hydrometer reading. You will be able to get a feel for how it's developing that way. Once you know what you're looking for, you can use your mouth to decide if it's ready to rack or not.
 
If you have easy access to ice you can maintain a cooler ferment in a waterbath. Set your fermenter in a larger tub filled with water and kept chilled with ice. Cover with towels or blankets for insulation.
 
Hi Nateo. I will keep my eyes open for the yeasts mentioned. The one I started with was a Lalvin product....but I can't remember which exact one. I have been tasting at my hydrometer readings so I have noticed a bit of development in my ciders.

I would do that Roadymi, but the area I am currently brewing in is pretty small, and the ice wouldn't last long either.

Thanks again people!
 
Oh, one other thing. I have had a look around today for some decent scales. I know I need to measure things in parts of grams sometimes, but the only scales I could find in the multiple department stores nearby were ones that measured in 1g divisions. Any ideas where I might be able to get some more precise scales on the cheap? thanks.
 
Oh, one other thing. I have had a look around today for some decent scales. I know I need to measure things in parts of grams sometimes, but the only scales I could find in the multiple department stores nearby were ones that measured in 1g divisions. Any ideas where I might be able to get some more precise scales on the cheap? thanks.

Head shops typically have a wide selection of scales that go down to 0.1, 0.01 and 0.001.

Another option for keeping your primary cooler is called a 'swamp cooler'. Essentially, your carboy is sitting in a water filled tub and wrapped in a towel with a fan blowing on it for constant evaporation.
 
Online may be cheaper, but you get better service locally imo. My most recent scale purchased was busted and couldn't calibrate correctly, brought it back to the shop and they swapped it out no prob.
 
LeBreton said:
Online may be cheaper, but you get better service locally imo. My most recent scale purchased was busted and couldn't calibrate correctly, brought it back to the shop and they swapped it out no prob.

If you buy from a reputable online site, you would get replaced as well. The premium from buying at a head shop can be pretty high, online makes much more sense. Unless of course, you don't care about overpaying for stuff.

Check Amazon before buying at a head shop, it will likely be cheaper, you won't have to pay sales tax, will ship for free, and it's easy to get something replaced from Amazon if there's an issue.

Plus, you won't have to deal with local law enforcement writing your tag number down and looking for any reason to pull you over. That's a common issue with head shops.
 
Yeah. I have tried some shops around my area, which is known for being pretty dodgy of a spot. Every time I roll up to a shop in my crappy little car, with my ratty dreadlocks, dirty board shorts and TOOL shirt on.....I immediately get funny looks when I ask for scales.....no idea why:p Head shops might be a little less judgemental, but I reckon online is probably the best bet. I might have a look on Amazon a little later. Thanks guys. Also, the swamp cooling system sounds like it might be a decent idea. I found an old phone charger recently, cut the cord and attached it to an old computer fan. Does quite a good job. So all I am left to do is wrap them in towels and find a suitable resivior.

Thanks again guys!
 
Bit of an update here. This morning marks 1 week of primary for the cider, and the awful smell (still very strong last night) seems to be going away. I didn't check the SG, due to a lack of time, but I will as soon as I am home. I did check the SG a few days ago and it was sitting right at 1000, so Im guessing that it will either have stopped there, or be slightly below.

I'm tossing up whether to rack the cider off tonight, or to wait until it smells the way I would like it to before I rack.....or whether to just give it another full week in primary to 'clean up after itself'. I don't want to run the risk of imparting off flavours by leaving it on the lees too long. There have been no bubbles for quite a while now, and the mean temp will have dropped a bit due to cooler weather setting in.
Any thoughts on this one?

My first (blind) batch, was bottled and seems to have begun carbonating now, but I don't have super high hopes for it, It tastes very bland and shallow, I now realise that I racked it off WAY too early from both primary and secondary. then forgot to prime it for carbonation, then decided in my infinite wisdom that I should add a tiny pinch of DAP and some more sugar, as well as a tiiiiny yeast pitch to get carbonation happening more vigorously. So I'm pretty sure I have done EVERYTHING I would possibly have done wrong with this one. Will let you all know how awful it tastes once I decide to drink it.

Thanks.
 

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