Brun Water/Water Chemistry/Profiles

I really didn't feel that I would have a hard time grasping water chemistry but I am. I'm not even sure where to begin. I have read through several forums/web sites and bru'n waters knowledge area. I just installed an RO system, Ward results forthcoming, to try and make it easy on myself. For all intents and purposes, I will be using the Bru'n Water "RO Water" as my existing water, and will update as necessary after my ward results come back.

I have questions from where to find very generic water profiles, what vessels do I add additions, to and do I treat the sparge water the same as the mash. I batch sparge. In my process I have 3 separate water "additions". The 1st infusion, then a small top off amount(before mashout), and after I collected the first runnings I have a batch sparge addition(roughly equal to half of the first). Do each of these need to have the same treatment or will they be treated differently? What options do I have on where to add them. HLT, MT, Kettle?

Looking at the differences between the Pale ale profile and amber bitter profile within Bru'n water, I can tell there is significant differences. I have no idea which to select for a west coast pale ale.

I spent a little time trying to balance additions to match a finished water profile to the desired and found that its about impossible to get it perfect. As for individual compounds, do I really even care about low magnesium, or sodium. If a profile I selected that had 18ppm magnesium and your water was 0ppm, would you even care?

If anyone would be so gracious as to run some numbers through bru'n water and tell me what they get, maybe I could catch on by going backwards.

An example

I want to make a West coast APA
5 Gallon batch bottled - 6 Gallon post boil - 7.25 Gallon pre-boil(90 Min)
OG 1.053
42 IBU
11.5 lbs Pale ale malt (3L)
14 oz Crystal 75
3 oz Carapils
Mashing at 150F

I will be using my own RO water, so for this example lets use the Bru'n water's RO profile.

I have yet to select a desired water profile, so any help on that would be great including why they selected that and what they would change if they were wanting it to be a less or more bitter beer. Again, I only really care about APA, IPA, DIPA at this time.

My Mash and sparge calculations are as follows

Infusion quantity - 3.9375 Gal ~ or 4 Gallons
Mash out Quantity - 1.75 Gal
Batch Sparge quantity - 3.3 gallons
With that process I should be left with ~7.25 Gallons in the kettle to boil

Which of these water quantities needs treatment? and with what?
I have on hand these salts
Phosphoric acid at 25%
Calcium Chloride
Gypsum
Magnesium Sulfate
Calcium Carbonate - don't think I will need
Baking soda - don't think I will need
Any other minerals beneficial to have?
Also a ColorPhast test of my water indicated 5.0. Is that normal of RO water?

I do realize I just asked for a significant amount of someone's time. I truly would appreciate the help and would love to reciprocate that help to someone In my shoes when appropriate.

You'll get a lot of different advice, but the basic principle is to get 50-100 ppm calcium into your wort to help yeast and to get a mash pH between 5.1 and 5.5. Start with RO water and add calcium chloride or calcium phosphate or a combination to achieve that calcium level, and use lactic acid or saurmaltz to adjust the mash pH down as necessary. As I've seen ajdelange and so many others post here, do small scale mashes and invest in a good pH meter.

That doesn't seem too difficult. I have a ph meter and even though I'm not proficient with it I'm sure I can get there.

I may be still over thinking this but I still have questions on how much of the water to treat. For example when you say get the calcium to 50-100ppm. Is that 50-100ppm per amount of water in the mash or all water used or 50-100 ppm for the boil volume. To me that would be all different quantities.

I get the mash ph. Do I need to care about the ph of the sparge water? Once I set my mash ph I'm sure it's not going to change during the 60 minute mash. After I drain it off though and add plain ro water there is no telling what it will be the. At this point is it less important?

I have been using Bru'n Water for a little bit now and might help you. I am no expert so.. When using Bru'n water you setup your dilution % all the way up to 100 if using straight RO or DI, and that brings your water profile to zero. Than you can add back in the minderals to bring them to your desired levels (this is where the primer sticky comes in). Depending on what you are brewing you will add the calcium chloride and gypsum(when needed) and use either lactic acid or saurmaltz in the mash to bring down the ph.
This is all dependent on your grist ;ie style in the primer..

Some people say to treat all your water at once, but for me, following the Bru'n water I treat my strike and sparge water seperatly. If you look at the water adjustments page it tells you how many grams per gallon to add to each. As far as the sparge water, yes you want to adjust the sparge water using acid to bring the ph down, and that is done on the sparge acidification page.

As far as your question in the original post about the more bitter or less bitter, it all depends on what taste great to you. What you want to focus on for the "taste" of the beer is the sulfate to chloride ratio. This will provide you a more malty characteristic if its 1:2 or the hop bitterness comes through more in a 2:1 ratio. These are simple examples of coarse. But the best thing to do is to play around with the program some. I have spent a few weeks just playing around with it and plan to do some "mini" mashes to see how my Ph comes out.
Again I am no expert at water, just trying to help

A pH in the 5 range can be typical for RO water. Don't worry about that. You won't need to worry about acidifying your sparging water since RO has such low alkalinity.

The mineral content of your brewing water is always a subject of debate. It depends on your tastes. For an IPA, I find that a significant sulfate content is pleasing. Thus the Pale Ale profile is what I normally use. I don't find any 'off' or 'harsh' flavor from that content, just a dryer finish. A more cautious selection may be to utilize the Yellow Bitter profile since its sulfate content is quite modest. At that sulfate content, I find the beer doesn't dry out enough. But it is still very good.

The magnesium content for brewing water is also debatable. In all grain brewing, the malt supplies all the Mg that the yeast need. The only reason to add Mg is for its flavor contribution. Considering that it tends to be sour and astringent, those flavor contributions are typically most welcome in a beer that is intended to be bitter. An IPA is one of the few styles that Mg may be an asset in.

The only other salt that I suggest you might include in your brewery is table salt. I do find that modest sodium content adds to the beer flavor in some styles.

I appreciate the response. That all makes good sense as well. Even though sparge water will not need to be acidified, will the sparge water need minerals added? I'm still not sure when we talk about mineral additions, if we are talking about only the mash or all water. If I'm shooting for 75ppm calcium is that for mash only or the whole process? Me my purposes that would a difference between treating only 4 gallons of water or maybe 9 gallons. It would make sense that everything should have the same mineral content?

There are really two parts to treating brewing water if you are using RO water. One is to make sure that the mash pH is in the desired range. The second part is to provide minerals to get a flavor profile in the final product. Select a water profile or customize one to your liking with CaCl, CaSO4, MgSO4, and NaCl or some sodium source. When you do this in brunwater by default it should tell you how much to add to your sparge water to get the desired ion concentrations in the final beer. Since you are using RO water you do not need to adjust your sparge water. Sparge water is adjusted to keep pH in line (something like below 6, I don't remember). If your mash pH is already in the 5's and you use RO water the pH will not really change much, so don't add anything to RO sparge water. Reserve the amounts in the sparge additions and add those into the kettle when you begin your boil. This is what I do, as I use RO water as well.

Adding minerals to sparging water is debatable. You can reserve the quantity of minerals from the sparging water and just add them directly to the kettle. However, I have a theory that increasing the ionic content of nearly pure waters can help decrease the extraction of tannins from the grist. Not proven, just theory.

Since we may want a certain level of ions in the final wort, it makes sense to me that going ahead and adding those minerals to the sparging water is the way to go. The only ion that is complexed and precipitated in the mash tun is calcium. The rest of the ions are highly soluble and whatever content is in the sparging water will make it into the final wort. Given the 'potential' benefit of reduced tannin extraction and no other detriment, I suggest that adding minerals to the sparging water is wisest.

westwardclock said:

I appreciate the response. That all makes good sense as well. Even though sparge water will not need to be acidified, will the sparge water need minerals added? I'm still not sure when we talk about mineral additions, if we are talking about only the mash or all water. If I'm shooting for 75ppm calcium is that for mash only or the whole process? Me my purposes that would a difference between treating only 4 gallons of water or maybe 9 gallons. It would make sense that everything should have the same mineral content?

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You want your final wort to have the 50-100 ppm calcium in it. The concentration in the mash vs. sparge is not as critical as controlling the pH there. As stated above, your RO water is just fine for sparging without any additions.

To make things simple, I would make all the additions to the mash, and assume that during sparging you'll rinse out all of the calcium you've added. In reality, you'll only be recovering a portion of it that depends on your process, but the math here is neither simple nor helpful. Just add the salts needed for 100 ppm calcium in your FINAL batch size to the mash water, adjust the pH of the mash and make better beer.

As these responses show you can make this pretty darn complicated and if you want to fully understand what is going on it is indeed pretty complicated. Or you can make it pretty simple, brew some beer and then move on to understand the complexities later if you want to. With RO water all you have to do is add some calcium chloride (and possibly calcium sulfate) to the water plus a little sauermalz to set the pH properly. With a pH meter in hand you can check the pH and adjust the sauermalz as necessary. Treat the entire volume of water to be used. This emulates a brewery using its main supply for all brewing processes (mash, sparge, makeup, dilution).

See the Primer in the Stickies in this topic (Brew Science) for specific advice.

I'm not quite through the primer(page 17) yet but it really has been invaluable. I feel much better about going forward with a beer. Thanks

I don't think you need to read the whole thing! OTOH some other peoples' questions and comments might lend some insight. The intention here is not, however, insight but rather to get you up and running.

ajdelange said:

I don't think you need to read the whole thing! OTOH some other peoples' questions and comments might lend some insight. The intention here is not, however, insight but rather to get you up and running.

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I had many of the same questions as others had. That's why I'm continuing on. I just need to start a batch with the basics and see the resultant ph and finished beer. Trial and error from here. I'm excited.