Couple Issues: AG #2

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Fletch78

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I bottled my second AG yesterday and again, I'm disappointed.

I noticed the strong cat-piss aroma again, it's the same odor I blamed on Simcoe Hops for my first AG batch (bottled a month ago, and tasted a bottle yesterday and the cat piss is still there). I only used Citra and Amarillo in this second batch.

I'm trying to think of what I did the same in both batches. The grains, the LHBS, the yeast, ferm temp, pretty much everything was different batch 1 to batch 2.

Here's what was the same:

-Lots of Amarillo, some dry-hopped.
-Bleach used as sanitizer
-Same primary vessel

After listening to the podcast from a couple years ago about going 50 ppm hydrochlorite into water, then adding same amount of vinegar for ph to make it more toxic in small concentrations for a no-rinse sanitizer, I'll be doing that from now on. But I just found that podcast yesterday, after it's too late. Is it possible that trace amounts of the bleach from sanitizing the primary bucket would have this strong of an impact in a heavily dry-hopped beer?

I'll post the exact recipes if any of you think it's relevant. Thanks!
 
I don't like overly hopped beers. I've had an all Amarillo IPA once and it did smell a little like cat piss to me and that thing was a commercial offering, not something that was straight out of the fermenter and in the bottle, so the aroma had the time to fade quite a bit.

You are using very citrus oriented hops. I would try using something like EKG that is a lot more grassy to see if I still have the cat piss problem.
 
I don't like overly hopped beers. I've had an all Amarillo IPA once and it did smell a little like cat piss to me and that thing was a commercial offering, not something that was straight out of the fermenter and in the bottle, so the aroma had the time to fade quite a bit.

You are using very citrus oriented hops. I would try using something like EKG that is a lot more grassy to see if I still have the cat piss problem.

The curve ball in all this was batch #1, with alot of Simcoe and Amarillo, the aroma from the airlock during dryhop was amazing, exactly what I was going for, the "Perfect Beer" if you know what I mean. But somewhere between dry-hop and bottle and pint glass, something was lost in translation.

I'll switch out my fermenter, change sanitizer. Also, each batch was 3 oz total of dryhops, perhaps I'll pull that back to 1 oz.
 
You might think about only changing one element at a
time to better figure out the problem.
MB

I agree 100% with this. If I was having issues isolating the undesirable tastes. I would get some 1 gallon jugs. If you know people that like wine it will help get rid of it. I would also do some cooking with it...maybe even a freebie mulled wine party for friends and family. Then start with some SMaSH recipes. That should point the guilty finger at what you are not liking...

It is better to do up 5 1 gallon batches to know what the problem is and dump/give away 1 or 2 than to dump/give away a 5 gallon batch...IMO.
 
First, I'd stop using bleach. Clean with PBW or Oxiclean and Sanitize with StarSan or Iodophor, they are so cheap it's almost foolish not to use the purpose made No-Rinse Sanitizers.

The above being said, I think your problem is probably the hops. I'll echo the above suggestion and tell you to stay away from the American Citrusy hops, they arent' for everyone.

In addition, can you tell me how long your second batch was in bottles/keg/primary/secondary? Amarillo doesn't really strike me as "Catty" but Simcoe is from start to finish.
 
First, I'd stop using bleach. Clean with PBW or Oxiclean and Sanitize with StarSan or Iodophor, they are so cheap it's almost foolish not to use the purpose made No-Rinse Sanitizers.

The above being said, I think your problem is probably the hops. I'll echo the above suggestion and tell you to stay away from the American Citrusy hops, they arent' for everyone.

In addition, can you tell me how long your second batch was in bottles/keg/primary/secondary? Amarillo doesn't really strike me as "Catty" but Simcoe is from start to finish.

Batch #2: Primary about 18 days then bottled yesterday. The dryhop was for about 8 days.

I've never had a commercial IPA that I didn't like. So I assumed I'd like the C-hops that are so prevalent.
 
Anyone else think that maybe tannins could be confused with cat piss? That's just a thought, and would make me look at the sparge process.......I agree though that it may well be the hops, and also with changing one thing at a time to find out the cause.
 
Anyone else think that maybe tannins could be confused with cat piss? That's just a thought, and would make me look at the sparge process.......I agree though that it may well be the hops, and also with changing one thing at a time to find out the cause.

I certainly have had mashing/sparging issues, but I never boiled any grain or ever achieved a grain temp over 170, and I'm a very thorough temp measurer. I don't think it's a grain or mash issue, those are totally different issues with efficiency and process that I'm working out.

I've never thought of tannins as being stinky. I think of them like oak and raisins in mead or cyser, like tannic wine. Is barley tannin much different, stronger and pissy?
 
Batch #2: Primary about 18 days then bottled yesterday. The dryhop was for about 8 days.

I've never had a commercial IPA that I didn't like. So I assumed I'd like the C-hops that are so prevalent.

I don't see it listed that you used any of the 3 C's (Cascade/Centennial/CTZ), although Amarillo is somewhat close to Centennial.
 
Batch 1 had cascades, Batch 2 had Citra.

But the bulk of #1 was simcoe, and the bulk of #2 was Amarillo.
 
I certainly have had mashing/sparging issues, but I never boiled any grain or ever achieved a grain temp over 170, and I'm a very thorough temp measurer. I don't think it's a grain or mash issue, those are totally different issues with efficiency and process that I'm working out.

I've never thought of tannins as being stinky. I think of them like oak and raisins in mead or cyser, like tannic wine. Is barley tannin much different, stronger and pissy?

It was just a thought, and something i might look at after the possible hop selection issue. I had taste problems when I was fly sparging, and I might have described my off tastes in a similar way.
 
I'd give the Amarillo batch more time to condition to see if those "Cat Piss" flavors are still there. Did you get that smell from the hops before you tossed them in the brew? I'm not sure that this second batch has the hops to blame.
 
That's what I was thinking too. Neither hop schedule smelled pissy to begin with. And just to stickle, it isn't the flavor, it's the aroma that is strong pissy. The flavor of #1 isn't all that bad, and of course the flavor of #2 is too young for me to make a judgement on. It's the aroma of both that concern me. And it isn't "mild" notes of cat piss... it's straight up cat piss. SWMBO identified it as cat piss as well, with no prompting or prejudice from reading anything or knowing anything about it. She is in charge of our cat's litterbox, she is very familiar with the aroma of cat urine. That's what concerns me the most. Because of all the other catty descriptions I've read here about Simcoe, I just assumed that's what it was, until I get the same affect on non-simcoe batch #2... blah blah now I'm just repeating myself.

I innoculated a gallon of cider with Batch #2 trub (us-05) this morning, unwashed. If it also smells like cat piss, I'll know I've got a serious problem.
 
That's what I was thinking too. Neither hop schedule smelled pissy to begin with. And just to stickle, it isn't the flavor, it's the aroma that is strong pissy. The flavor of #1 isn't all that bad, and of course the flavor of #2 is too young for me to make a judgement on. It's the aroma of both that concern me. And it isn't "mild" notes of cat piss... it's straight up cat piss. SWMBO identified it as cat piss as well, with no prompting or prejudice from reading anything or knowing anything about it. She is in charge of our cat's litterbox, she is very familiar with the aroma of cat urine. That's what concerns me the most. Because of all the other catty descriptions I've read here about Simcoe, I just assumed that's what it was, until I get the same affect on non-simcoe batch #2... blah blah now I'm just repeating myself.

I innoculated a gallon of cider with Batch #2 trub (us-05) this morning, unwashed. If it also smells like cat piss, I'll know I've got a serious problem.

Do you ferment in clear glass or plastic? Maybe light-struck to some degree?
 
I thought I answered this 4 hours ago... sigh


Batch 1:

Plastic, indoors, covered in blanket but in an artificially lit room.


Batch 2
Plastic fermenter, covered in blanket and zipped up in a coat, outdoors, but gets some daylight.
 
http://brewiki.org/BeerFlavours

According to this flavor wheel, the two things I most associate these brews with are Catty and Moldy, which are both in the "Oxidized, Stale" area. Now I'm more confused than ever. There was always a nose burning layer of CO2 in the fermenter, and I used a siphon to transfer to bottling bucket, and hose to bottle, with minimal splashing. And with batch 2, I noticed the funny smell during transfer, before any oxidation should have even occured.

BeerFlavorWheel.png
 
http://brewiki.org/BeerFlavours

According to this flavor wheel, the two things I most associate these brews with are Catty and Moldy, which are both in the "Oxidized, Stale" area. Now I'm more confused than ever. There was always a nose burning layer of CO2 in the fermenter, and I used a siphon to transfer to bottling bucket, and hose to bottle, with minimal splashing. And with batch 2, I noticed the funny smell during transfer, before any oxidation should have even occured.

BeerFlavorWheel.png

I doubt it was oxidation, you have to try pretty hard to oxidize your beer and even then it takes a little time to stale. I'm blaming the hops or the yeast, did you happen to mention what yeast you used with these two beers?
 
Brew #1- WL East Coast, no starter
Brew #2- US-05, pitched directly

Both fermented predictably and quickly, although #1 had a healthy addition of honey after a couple days that strung it out another week.

The "Sherry-Like" thing is pretty spot on, but everything I read says that's a long term problem, so I'm chalking that up to using honey in the batch. I can't make a sherry comment on #2, again, it's only just been bottled this week, I haven't made a flavor judgement yet.

The more I read, the more I'm leaning back toward tannin extraction due to high PH as well as some chlorophenol action reacting in my sinuses with some pretty strong aroma hops. The haziness also points to "protein-tannin complexes" extracted since I used Irish moss to prevent protein haze.
 
Wouldn't be the yeast then. Did you check your mash PH? Maybe try some 5.2 in the mash?


That's exactly what I was thinking after doing more reading tonight. My only hold-up is that I've talked to LHBC and LHBS and they all use the same water as me and rarely treat it, and I've tasted their beers and they are very good. Otherwise, I would have used gypsum in Batch #2, LHBS talked me out of it. Once it carbs, I'm going to make him drink one. Maybe then he'll sell me some damn gypsum.
 
That's exactly what I was thinking after doing more reading tonight. My only hold-up is that I've talked to LHBC and LHBS and they all use the same water as me and rarely treat it, and I've tasted their beers and they are very good. Otherwise, I would have used gypsum in Batch #2, LHBS talked me out of it. Once it carbs, I'm going to make him drink one. Maybe then he'll sell me some damn gypsum.

Or maybe he will have a proper diagnosis? Because we are all just really grasping at straws here. Cat Piss to you may be like Rose Petals to someone else. Do you have a decent Homebrew Club close? Maybe a local Brewpub with a brewer that's willing to taste your brew? Having someone with an experienced palette taste your beer is the best way to make it better!

Could be the mash but I'd test the PH the next time you brew first.

And the bleach as a sanitizer, you used that for your previous batches without issues correct?
 
Update:

I used some of the trub from batch #2 to ferment 1 gallon cider. No issues or off-aromas, bottled today. So, if it was an infection, I would expect the same issue to exist in the cider too.... no?
 
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