Help with lager schedule

Hi

I have a Bock that need to have ready by 11-27. I started making the starter yesterday and will step up a couple of times before i brew it on Sunday or Monday.

My question is this.

I usually ferment for 4 weeks.

I see that i should lager this for 4 weeks.

Well i'm going to have to cut some time off one or those so...............witch one should i cut a week off of?

Thanks

Lagering I suppose, it really aint enough time, you should have brewed this 4 months ago, but as my youngest would say "The shoulda's don't matter".

Yeah, it won't be as good if you only lager it for less time. Definitely don't start lagering before it is finished fermenting or it will be a tad too sweet and may cause bottle bombs. I second what colo said about starting sooner.

I would primary for 4 weeks and lager for the additional time. Its pushing it and it won't be perfect, but good enough.

It won't take four weeks to ferment, even at 50 degrees. It should take about 10 days or so to ferment- possibly 14 days. Check the SG and if you're about 75% of the way to FG, you can raise the temperature for the diacetyl rest. After 48 hours at the diacetyl rest, and FG is met, then you can rack and begin lagering. I wouldn't leave a lager on a yeast cake for four weeks, even though I wouldn't worry about doing it with an ale.

It's good to lager a week for every 8-10 points of OG. So, for an OG of 1.060 you'd want to lager for 6-8 weeks ideally.

Ok thanks everyone. Its in the ferm chamber at about 48 degrees, although i'm kinda nervous because there is no air lock activity yet and its going on about 32 hours. I built up a starter. Is this normal for lagers?

Lager ferments are not as violent as ales. But that's entirely relative. The standard caveats about "the airlock indicates nothing, really" apply.

Cheers,

Bob

Thank you everyone, hopefully ill see something tonight!

My first lager is fermenting now and its interesting. Its not as violent as my ales, but it did have a krausen starting within a couple hours of pitching, so I guess my starter was sufficient.

Most interesting is that the carboy is within a degree of the ambient tempurature. With my ales, the carboy can get several degrees higher than ambient, so I'm constantly tweaking the temp controller. With this lager (S-189), I set it at 52-53F and just let it go.

3rd day and nothing happening in the airlock. Should i take a gravity reading today, or just wait a week. I have the ferm chamber set at 48, is that too cold?

smakudwn said:

3rd day and nothing happening in the airlock. Should i take a gravity reading today, or just wait a week. I have the ferm chamber set at 48, is that too cold?

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Looks like we are on the same brewing schedule

I just brewed my first lager on Monday. Also no visible activity yet except for a little suckback in the blowoff tubes. I have my temp at 54.

For those more familiar with lager yeast: I did not do a starter and noticed that neither of the two smack packs swelled much before pitching. How long would you let it go before taking a gravity reading?

Any krausen forming? See anything swirling around in the fermentor? If not, you might have a problem. What yeast strain did you use? I hope you didn't get an ale yeast instead of a lager strain. 48F should be fine for all lager strains, but terrible for all ale strains.

lschiavo said:

I did not do a starter and noticed that neither of the two smack packs swelled much before pitching.

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FYI this is not a good idea. Ales are pretty forgiving with low pitching rates but lagers are not. In fact, even a fully swollen, almost bursting, smackpack won't give you enough yeast for the recommended pitching rates. You need a twice-stepped starter at least. The one I pitched this week was an actively fermenting slury from a commerical brewery and I still felt the need to step it up in a 1.5 qt starter.

If it was my beer, I'd run down to my LHBS today and buy 2 packets of dry yeast like S-23. I'd pitch that immediately instead of waiting to see what happens.

I stepped up a vile of white labs Bock lager yeast 2 times with 2l starter, i might have under pitched a bit, but i didn't think it was too bad. I'm fermenting in a bucket so i cant see anything.

ghpeel said:

FYI this is not a good idea. Ales are pretty forgiving with low pitching rates but lagers are not. In fact, even a fully swollen, almost bursting, smackpack won't give you enough yeast for the recommended pitching rates. You need a twice-stepped starter at least. The one I pitched this week was an actively fermenting slury from a commerical brewery and I still felt the need to step it up in a 1.5 qt starter.

If it was my beer, I'd run down to my LHBS today and buy 2 packets of dry yeast like S-23. I'd pitch that immediately instead of waiting to see what happens.

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Thanks for the info and advise I guess I should have studied a little before starting this one. OP, sorry for the hijack. At least you were smart enough to build up a starter.

smakudwn said:

I'm fermenting in a bucket so i cant see anything.

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Ahh you might be fine then! With some buckets, the ring for the airlock isn't airtight, in which case you won't see any bubbles.

Pull out the bucket, pull out the airlock and look down into that hole. You should be able to see the surface of the wort including any krausen that's formed. I usually push down on the lid while smelling above the airlock gasket, this forces up some air from the bucket and you can smell the C02 of an active fermentation. Oh, and if it smells like rotten eggs, then that's a good sign, believe it or not. Lager yeasts throw a lot of sulfur sometimes. Perfectly normal.

If you don't see any krausen, or evidence of a fallen krausen, then maybe its time to get worried.

I did not see any krausen, or evidence of a fallen krausen, im going to take a gravity reading tonight. if not i might be trying to hit up a lhbs for some dry lager yeast. Unless i can use Nottingham or safe ale 05.

No budge in gravity, so i pitched dry lager yeast. We shall see if its bubbling tonight.

Good luck with it. Should the dry yeast fail to start then I guess the only other alternative is that you've got a bad temp controller or something and your chamber is too cold for the yeast. Unlikely though.

Nothing like trying to make quickie lager (a bock at that!). Lagers always take longer to show signs of fermentation.

Did you pitch at ale temp or at lager temp? Pitching at lager (fermentation) temp takes a bit longer for the yeast to start chewing on the sugars, but this is my preferred method of lager pitching. I despise diacetyl, and pitching warm is one sure-fire to get it in a lager. The D-rest can usually remove it, but I don't want to do a GD D-rest!

Your beer will happen, but it may not be the best at the end of November. Try to save some so you can taste the full potential of your bock (like on New Years).

I pitched at lager temps.
Everything is going well now. I don't think ill rush this, ill just let it sit till its done.

Just transfered this to a Corny to lager. Noticed some fruity esters..........is this normal for the s-23? Will that lager out?

I have never used that yeast, so I don't know. But esters in lagers are generally a sign of under-pitching. But it could have something to do with how you the first yeast never took off (don't know why.....) and then you pitched again.

I don't think it will lager out, but your beer will change a lot during lagering, mostly yeast dropping out of suspension and cleaning up the beer along the way. Maybe the taste is just a green beer taste.


What was the gravity when you racked it?

Gravity was at 1.020. I ended up getting a better efficiency than i had thought, so i guess this is more of a douplebock. OG was 1.084

That sounds about right for a FG for a dopplebock.

You have about a month to lager, which will help a lot.

I brewed up a BoPils on Sunday and used washed yeast from a Helles Bock that had finished fermenting. I pitched at about 3pm on Sunday, at 48F, and had no visible signs of fermentationby 5pm Monday. I took a sample from one carboy and it had dropped 5 points from the knockout gravity. By 7am Tuesday krausen had begun to from, and by 4pm Tuesday both had big krausens. Lagers just take longer (more patience required).

Yooper_Brew said:

It won't take four weeks to ferment, even at 50 degrees. It should take about 10 days or so to ferment- possibly 14 days. Check the SG and if you're about 75% of the way to FG, you can raise the temperature for the diacetyl rest. After 48 hours at the diacetyl rest, and FG is met, then you can rack and begin lagering. I wouldn't leave a lager on a yeast cake for four weeks, even though I wouldn't worry about doing it with an ale.

It's good to lager a week for every 8-10 points of OG. So, for an OG of 1.060 you'd want to lager for 6-8 weeks ideally.

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Off-topic-ish.

Yoop. You say you would not leave a lager on the yeast cake for a month. How about 3 weeks? I have a 1.048 light lager that had reached terminal gravity by day 9 (S-23 was the yeast).

I tasted the hydrometer sample on day 9 and did not notice any diacetyl. I bumped up for a D-rest anyway, just to be safe. I left it at 65F until day 16, when I dropped it back to 52F.

I can probably rack to the lagering vessel this week if it's a necessity. But my plan was to do it this weekend (day 22). I was going to cold crash it Friday night (day 21) and then rack to my secondary on Saturday.

Is this still safe or do I need to cold crash it tonight(day 18) and try to move it to the lagering vessel tomorrow night after work (day 19)?

winvarin said:

Off-topic-ish.

Yoop. You say you would not leave a lager on the yeast cake for a month. How about 3 weeks? I have a 1.048 light lager that had reached terminal gravity by day 9 (S-23 was the yeast).

I tasted the hydrometer sample on day 9 and did not notice any diacetyl. I bumped up for a D-rest anyway, just to be safe. I left it at 65F until day 16, when I dropped it back to 52F.

I can probably rack to the lagering vessel this week if it's a necessity. But my plan was to do it this weekend (day 22). I was going to cold crash it Friday night (day 21) and then rack to my secondary on Saturday.

Is this still safe or do I need to cold crash it tonight(day 18) and try to move it to the lagering vessel tomorrow night after work (day 19)?

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I always take the lager off of the yeast when FG is reached, after the diacetyl rest so I can begin lagering. I don't think you'll notice any harm from leaving it on the yeast longer, but I wouldn't know from experience. I just always rack the beer when it's ready to be racked.

I always take the lager off of the yeast when FG is reached

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That's the goal! You want to start lagering as soon as possible just so it gets ready as soon as possible. But you have to remember to step the temp down a degree or two a day down to as close to 32 F as you care to go. This way you don't shock the yeast that are still cleaning up the beer post-fermentation.

thank you everyone.

Although i messed up and didn't drop the temp down a little at a time. Did a D rest for 2 days at 65 and then into the corny and back into the fridge. Oh well this is my first lager and i figured i was going to have some bumps. Good thing i have most of a bag of Pilsner and Munich malt left so i can try more.

Lagers do not need 4 weeks to primary ferment. If anything once they pass d-rest get off the yeast and begin lagering. You could have primary and d-rest done if you already have a starter going within a week I bet, then lager for 3 weeks and pray, PRAY that it can CO2 in a week and be drinkable.

1. Make starter, step up <--- this process could take an entire week
2. Primary ferment <--- 5 to 7 days @ 50°
3. D-rest once at 1.024 until you hit target FG at room temp.
4. Rack to secondary and get it down to 32°F for a week to let any extras settle.
5. Rack to keg and keep at 32°F and maybe after 1 week, move to room temp and add gas.

You can have it done and drinkable. It won't be uber clean, but you can do it.

You can have it done and drinkable. It won't be uber clean, but you can do it.

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Which is disappointing with a lager. This how my Oktoberfest played out (well, all of my lagers!). I starting drinking it after 3 weeks of lagering and it wasn't quite clean yet, but now one week later its an amazing Oktoberfest, with that crisp finish I was looking for.

Yea i think I'm just going to let it sit for the 4 months, to be honest I'm not expecting much with all the issues I have had with it. Oh well maybe ill do a Helles this weekend to make up for it.



***edit i meant 4 weeks!

If you're not expecting much, why wait so long to drink it?!?! I would def. try a bottle after being in the bottle for a month. You may be surprised. Also, after you reach a nice carbonation level (2-3 weeks in bottle), I would move them all to cellar temps and/or the fridge. This will really help the beers flavor profile get just right.

I wont bottle this, it will stay in the corny keg. So im sure ill sneak samples here and there over the next 5 weeks!

funkswing said:

But you have to remember to step the temp down a degree or two a day down to as close to 32 F as you care to go. This way you don't shock the yeast that are still cleaning up the beer post-fermentation.

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I read up quite a bit before staring my first lager (still lagering it now...) and I believe you only need to do the slow drop if you don't do a diacetyl rest at higher temps.

The theory is that if you drop temps too quick the yeast won't be able to consume the diacetyl before they drop out of suspension and into sleepy-yeasty land. However, if you do a proper D-Rest at the end of the primary, then the yeasties will have done their thing enough so that you can just straight CRASH that beer down to 34F without any problems. So if you raise your primary temps up to 60F+ for the last little bit of primary fermentation, you don't need to do the slow drop down to lagering temps.

Kaiser has some great lagering information on his wiki. I believe that's where some of this info comes from.

Well, that may explain it......I don't do D-rests if I don't taste diacetyl after fermentation, because that is just silly, "cause you're supposed ta" logic.

But I would recommend them if you are first starting lagering, because diacetyl will ruin every lager. And when you are first starting you don't know what to expect anyways.

funkswing said:

Well, that may explain it......I don't do D-rests if I don't taste diacetyl after fermentation, because that is just silly, "cause you're supposed ta" logic.

But I would recommend them if you are first starting lagering, because diacetyl will ruin every lager. And when you are first starting you don't know what to expect anyways.

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Total agreement. I did some steps in my first lager solely because I wasn't sure if I could even tell what diacetyl tastes like. Once I get a few under my belt, I'll start trying to eliminate brewing dogma as much as I can. I already do No Chill, which should make all my beers taste like corn and botulism, according to some :cross:.

Thanks, I did do a D rest because............what does it hurt? When i racked over to the keg for lagering i didn't taste any diacetyl so thats good.

Doesn't hurt anything. Its kinda a safety net approach to lagers. But I don't think I have heard of anyone destroying their beer because of a D-rest.

If you don't taste diacetyl then you have won, my friend!