Switch to 3 vessel from biab?

HI everyone-

I have been brewing for about almost 2 years now, and when I switched to all grain, I started with BIAB with an intent to upgrade to a full 3 vessel system when I got the space and time and money.

I have been toying with the idea of upgrading. I have a modified clone of Kal's electric brewery that I have set up as a single vessel eBiab rig with a RIMS tube. It would be very easy to hook it back up for 3 vessel use.

The benefits of BIAB are posted in many posts. So far, the only complaints I have with BIAB are a follows:
1) The wort is not clear before the boil.
2) I have some difficulty lifting the bag without getting hot wort all over the place.
3) I find it a bit of a pain to squeeze the bag to improve efficiency.
4) My hopstopper clogs sometimes, and I think that may have something to do with the cloudy wort having more hot break to clog the hopstopper

I have been, overall, pretty satisfied with the products I have made, and attribute most of the minor issues to problems with the brewer, not the equipment.

So my question is... is there an advantage to going 3 vessel while I have the chance (or rather when I have the chance, which SHOULD be soon)? There must be a reason that people who have 3 vessel system don't switch to BIAB from their systems. I have 2 march pumps, and would only have to buy 2 vessels. I suspect my efficiency would go up a few points, but I already get about 81% consistently, so it won't lead to huge savings in grain.

Will I gain anything by going to a 3 vessel setup?

While I can't speak to 3 vessel, I can speak to switching from biab to batch sparging with a dedicated mashtun rectangular cooler. I found it easier to repeat results with the mashtun.... Plain and simple. I liked biab and would still do it, but batch sparging takes up slightly more time and I don't have to deal with a huge bag of hot grains and dripping wort.

Flame suit on, but because I still like to keep it simple, 2 vessel (tun and brewpot) batch sparging is what I do now, that is when I'm not brewing extract or partial mash....

duckmanco said:

[...]Flame suit on, but because I still like to keep it simple, 2 vessel (tun and brewpot) batch sparging is what I do now, that is when I'm not brewing extract or partial mash....

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I'm curious, how do you manage a sparge in a two vessel setup - ie: without a HLT? Is the wort "ballistic"?

Cheers!

duckmanco said:

While I can't speak to 3 vessel, I can speak to switching from biab to batch sparging with a dedicated mashtun rectangular cooler. I found it easier to repeat results with the mashtun.... Plain and simple. I liked biab and would still do it, but batch sparging takes up slightly more time and I don't have to deal with a huge bag of hot grains and dripping wort.

Flame suit on, but because I still like to keep it simple, 2 vessel (tun and brewpot) batch sparging is what I do now, that is when I'm not brewing extract or partial mash....

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Two vessel is fine for 5 gallon batches. You have to collect your runnnings in a bucket (or something else) and then transfer to the BK after sparging. Which is no big deal. A bottling bucket works nice for collecting the runnings so that you can gravity drain into the BK to aviod excessive aeration. If you are going to do 10 gallon batches or bigger, go with a 3 vessel. Oh, to answer your original question, the biggest advantage I can see from moving away from BIAB would be to upgrade to larger batches. If you can crank out 10 or 15 gallons in almost the same time as it takes to brew 5, you're way ahead of the game even if you're not saving money on grain and such.

For the reasons you mentioned (specially 2 and 3) I have leaned towards using dedicated mash tun with 2 pots. I have a little 5 gallon pot that is used to heat mash and sparge water. I have a 10 gallon pot that is used to collect and boil wort.

My 5 gallon mash tun is perfect for 5 gallon batches. It holds 12 lbs of grain and 3 plus gallons of water. This fills it to the tippity top. My mash does not normally lose a degree in 75 minutes.

I am hitting my temperature numbers and hitting my effiencies. At first I had some problems with stuck mash tun drain. I went from a SS braid to a hard copper slotted drain to a hard drain with a bag. Since I started using the bag and hard drain I never have a problem and the process is neat. Because I can pull the spent grain out neatly I can then get all of the wort that hides in the bottom of the mash tun.

Good luck. If you have any questions I am happy to chat.

Mike

day_trippr said:

I'm curious, how do you manage a sparge in a two vessel setup - ie: without a HLT? Is the wort "ballistic"?

Cheers!

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Check this out....dennybrew

I've been using this system (and specifically the same equipment you see here) for 14 years and 411 batches. It works so well and is so east to use that I've never felt the desire to do anything else.
http://www.fyurl.com/rr.php?c=2&site=www.homebrewtalk.com&url=http://www.dennybrew.com

I use a 2 vessel system and do 10 gallons. The process is smooth and I'm getting better each time.

You have 2 pumps so you have already absorbed the biggest costs to a 3 vessel system but if money is still tight try using just 2 at first and then move to 3. 1) BK 1) MLT/HLT

duckmanco said:

While I can't speak to 3 vessel, I can speak to switching from biab to batch sparging with a dedicated mashtun rectangular cooler. I found it easier to repeat results with the mashtun.... Plain and simple. I liked biab and would still do it, but batch sparging takes up slightly more time and I don't have to deal with a huge bag of hot grains and dripping wort.

Flame suit on, but because I still like to keep it simple, 2 vessel (tun and brewpot) batch sparging is what I do now, that is when I'm not brewing extract or partial mash....

Click to expand...

After 10 or so BIAB batches I'm starting to feel the same way - not crazy about the bag of grains hanging over the kettle. However contrary to the OP, my wort is as clear with BIAB as it is with a 3 vessel RIMS setup that I have. I'm guessing maybe the bag he is using is not doing the job.

Denny said:

Check this out....dennybrew

I've been using this system (and specifically the same equipment you see here) for 14 years and 411 batches. It works so well and is so east to use that I've never felt the desire to do anything else.
http://www.fyurl.com/rr.php?c=2&site=www.homebrewtalk.com&url=http://www.dennybrew.com

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Thanks Denny, it's your batch sparge method that got me into even attempting AG...... and yes smart a** (day trippr - kidding of course) I should have clarified that I do run off into the boil kettle and get it heating up but also use my old 5 gallon extract pot to heat up sparge water.... Not a true 3 vessel system but technically, you still need 3 containers of some kind, one of them could be a bottling or fermenting bucket. Also for me, I only do 5 gallon batches as I'm the only drinker in the house and my friends ain't much on real beer. Shame really... Guess I'll go drink some more to take the edge of the pain.

I'm a relative newbie to all grain (6 batches total). But BIAB has treated me well. My wort might not be clear before the boil, but after a good hot and cold break it falls out so easily. Not an issue for me.

Lifting the bag is so easy if you have a fryer basket and rope/pulley. I don't spill a drop of wort this way.

Squeezing the bag IS a problem for me. I need to do something different here. My hands get all toasty and sticky. Maybe I can use a lid from a pan or something to keep my hands out of it.

Maybe some day I will go to the 3 vessel system. But no plans for now.

Just as a suggestion, rather than hanging the bag, I lift the bag out of my mash tun (slash boil kettle) and put a cookie cooling rack or barbeque grate over the top of the kettle. Then I can set the grains on the rack and squeeze to my hearts delight, but you could probably just let them drain as long as you wanted.

BBL_Brewer said:

If you can crank out 10 or 15 gallons in almost the same time as it takes to brew 5, you're way ahead of the game even if you're not saving money on grain and such.

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Don't keg so I'd have 150+ bottles of the same beer to drink. NOT, think I'll stick to really small 1.75 gallon batches and have a small apt sized refer full of different beers. Storage of that many bottles here in WARM Hawai`i would also be tough. No cool cellers to store bottles or kegs till ready to drink.

Thanks for the responses. Unfortunately, when I started the whole hobby, I wasn't really thinking in terms of expanding, which is odd, considering it took me a grand total of 2 batches to go from extract to all grain. I wish I had a nice fryer basket which I could line with the bag that could be easily raised and lowered, but none seems to fit my mash tun exactly. I did buy a smaller fryer basket to put my grain in and let it sit over the mash tun on top of a grill to let it dip in, but I am afraid if I squeeze too hard on top of the grill, it will break. I bought a acme threaded shaft that I plan to set up as a press in the fryer basket eventually if I stick with BIAB.

Denny- thanks for your response and the link to the website. I think, though, I don't fully understand. Perhaps I have had a few too many at this time (remember never to get on HBT after more than 5 beers), but I am not sure the specifics of how it works. It looks like you are mashing and then running it off into the kettle. But then you use the kettle again to heat the water used for the sparge, no? But then, doesn't the kettle now contain the first wort? How do you get clean water to use for sparging?

I did wonder about making larger batches, but I think 10 gallon batches may be JUSt doable on BIAB. I did a Kate the Great clone that used almost 31 lbs of grain for a 7 gallon batch, and that is probably about or more than any normal 10 gallon batch that i would do. Granted it SUCKED to lift 31 lbs or wet grain, and it was the biggest mess I have ever made with brewing, but it did in fact turn out great.

Another quick question while I am still drunk. Supposing I switch to a three vessel system... if I bought a few blichmann 15 gallon boilermakers and a false bottom, could I still use the bag in the mash tun, or would it interfere with the flow in the button louvered false bottom... the clean up from BIAB seems to be very easy, and I strongly dislike the whole cleaning process. I did one batch with 2 vessels and no bag and it was a PITA to clean up, aside from the other significant problems I had with that batch.

C-Rider said:

Don't keg so I'd have 150+ bottles of the same beer to drink. NOT, think I'll stick to really small 1.75 gallon batches and have a small apt sized refer full of different beers. Storage of that many bottles here in WARM Hawai`i would also be tough. No cool cellers to store bottles or kegs till ready to drink.

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Shoots cuz. No worries. You don't have to keep a pipeline going like we do....it's in your back yard With the prices on Oahu, I'd probably brew less too.

kshuler said:

Denny- thanks for your response and the link to the website. I think, though, I don't fully understand. Perhaps I have had a few too many at this time (remember never to get on HBT after more than 5 beers), but I am not sure the specifics of how it works. It looks like you are mashing and then running it off into the kettle. But then you use the kettle again to heat the water used for the sparge, no? But then, doesn't the kettle now contain the first wort? How do you get clean water to use for sparging?

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I have a kettle (converted keg) that I collect the wort and boil in and the 7 gal. AL pot that came with my turkey fryer that I heat water in. Before I had the kettle, though, I'd heat water in the AL pot and runoff into a bucket. After I was done heating water in the pot, I'd xfer the wort from the bucket to the pot.

It's very easy to brew in a 3 vessel system, because each component has its own purpose. You can let each thing do its own job and the only labor intensive part is setting it up, cleaning, and tearing down. You can also do it with relatively cheap items. I think one key point is that you can do bigger beers and larger batches, without wrestling with a huge amount of wet grain in a bag.

How is the cleanup in a 3 vessel system... HLT just has water in it so it should be easy, but then you have both the boil kettle and mash tun to clean. Cleaning the boil kettle, I would think, would be exactly like cleaning my single vessel BIAB system. The only downside I see to 3 vessel system, other than the cost, is the cleanup. My plan, if I go three vessel, will be an indoor system that is essentially mounted all the time, so there would be no setup time. The downside I have on my BIAB system, and probably the main reason I want to change things, is that i have to haul out my brewing rig right now. I made it large in case I wanted to expand it to a 3 vessel system. The problem here is it is EXTREMELY difficult to move it in and out, an I brew outdoors. So I have stored it under the entryway and have to move it all the time. It is big, bulky, and weighs a ton, and I have to slide it on its side over rough concrete. As I say, there are some possible downsides to BIAB, and since I am thinking I will have to change things up anyway with the brew stand, it may also be an opportunity to go three vessel.

Well, cleaning the mash tun is kind of a pain because it's sticky and the grains tend to get into any little crevice they can find. The upside of the mash tun, is that it doesn't have to be perfectly clean because you're going to boil your wort anyway. I keep mine free of any debris and clean it out with PBW to get the sticky wort out. Cleaning the brew kettle is only as hard as you make it. If you go all out and put a sight glass, thermometer, and ball valve on it then you have more stuff to clean. The HLT doesn't require cleaning, but it's just another thing you have to put away at the end of the day. Having a mash tun means you use something like a large pitcher or measuring cup (advise using one of the 4 quart aluminum ones because pyrex will start to crack) to vorlauf, unless you're pumping or something (I know you mentioned using pumps). Also, you would use tubing (recommend high-temp tubing) to transfer from the MT to the kettle, and whatever tubing from the kettle to the fermenter (I clean and re-use the same tube). The tubing and the pitcher will be sticky with wort, and will need cleaning out as well. Sometimes you'll get splatter and that'll cause a mess...but I just hose everything down outside. Depending on what additives you use and how you add your hops, you might get a stuck ball valve. That means keeping a siphon on hand just in case. I made a chocolate beer that was a nightmare.

Having a 3 vessel system also makes things more flexible for you, because you have a dedicated pot of hot water handy, a vessel with grains handy, and a boiling kettle handy. I know this would probably be frowned upon by perfectionists, but let's say you collect your grain runoff and it turns out that your volume is too low or the gravity isn't high enough. While your batch is coming to boil, you can add more water from your HLT to your MT and run off another gallon of wort without batting an eye. When I'm pre-heating my mash tun, sometimes the temperature drops off too fast. It's very easy to just drain a few liters of water and add some more from the HLT before adding grains. Lets say that my gravity is too high in my brew kettle (unlikely, but hey) I don't need to worry about preparing top-off water or anything. All I have to do is add some from my HLT, and it's already pre-filtered, boiled, and ready to go! It adds a lot of flexibility and control.

I know I wrote a ton, but it's hard to convey the benefits without nearly going through an entire brew session

Teromous- thanks for the response. I hadn't considered the convenience of having a bunch of hot water on hand whenever I would need it. Good point. If your gravity is too low, you can just sparge another gallon and boil for a bit longer to increase your gravity. Brilliant.

While I don't mind the extra step of cleaning the grains out of the MLT, I wonder if there is a way to clean the lines, the MLT, the boil kettle and he chiller all at the same time--- some sort of recirculation of hot PBW through all of them. The way I clean now is just rinse out the boil kettle, so that all particulates are gone, then just run PBW through the system for 30 minutes, then run 3x flushes through the system with water, followed (not always) by star san. I recirculate through everything-- rims tube, chiller, boil kettle and all the lines, and by the time it is done I can just put everything away. To be honest, though, I do go to the trouble of baking my plate chiller at 500 degrees just to turn any potential particles into ash and to completely dry and sterilize it so I don't have to worry too much about trapped particles causing infections. Since the entire system is pre boil and in a closed loop, always connected, none of it has to be sanitized with star san during brewing, I just recirculate some hot wort to sanitize the system. Since the tube that I fill the fermentor with is just the end of the recirc tube, which is immersed in boiling wort for a 90 minute boil, it is essentially sterile and doesn't need any special treatment, I just lift it out of the kettle and into the fermentor.

I also figure since star san is a sanitizer not a sterilizer, I am not absolutely required to sterilized all the lines and things... pasteurization is 30 minutes at 63 degrees C or 15 seconds at 72 degrees C. I mash hotter than this and recirculate during the mash- shouldn't be any problems with sanitation.

So, here is a question on false bottoms. I have gotten so used to the brew in a bag method of CLEANUP. Being able to just lift out the bag and have no grains left and nothing do do but a rinse the MLT would be brilliant, but could I continue to use a bag in the MLT and still rely on the false bottom performance. Honestly, if the false bottom would still not get clogged with this setup, then I think that would be the away to go. I did do a batch or two with a false bottom before I had my bag, and I remember lots of grain getting under the sale bottom, and then having to clean it out. It was more of a problem for me because I had to clean it out so I could put the wort BACK IN, as it was also my boiling vessel. It all left a bit of a sour taste in my mouth. I can't fit the false bottom in the mash tun anymore because I converted to electric, so I can't run the experiment myself to see if it works well or not. Does anyone who has a false bottom also use a bag as a liner, but still do traditional sparging?

"My hands get all toasty and sticky"

A pair of insulated rubber gloves solves all bag squeezing problems.

After a dozen BIAB batches, I switched to a dedicated mash tun (same as denny brew.com). It isn't any harder then biab; to clean the tun I just dump the grains & hose it out.

I don't brew 10 gallon batches and if I did I'd probably have to get a pulley system or a winch. But for 5 gal batches I do now, I simply pull the bag out, put a rack from my oven on top of the vessel, then put a plastic bucket with holes drilled in the bottom on top of that. Then the bag of grains goes into bucket. I can just leave it there to drain for however long I like, and I can use a lid to squeeze the rest of the wort out. Works great, there's only like 30 sec of heavy lifting, and don't usually spill more than a couple of drops.
I can't afford to buy a 3 vessel system at this stage in my life, but if I could, I don't think I would switch from BIAB. I'd rather spend the money on something that has a larger impact on my brewing, rather than the method used to create wort.

I'm pretty much debating the opposite right now - switching from batch sparging with 2 dedicated vessels (BK/MLT & an old pot for sparge water) to BIAB.

I've been very slowly gathering all the parts needed to go with an electric system as well as a keggle for dedicated HLT. My original design idea was for an E-HERMS system, but I want to try and use as much of my existing equipment as possible without spending a ton of money like some of the awesome systems on here. Now that I finally have my space in the basement cleared out I think I'd like to go with a systems with a smaller footprint than a traditional 3 vessel.

These are a few of the reasons why I was debating doing an electric biab, but utilizing my existing 15 gal megapot I wouldn't be able to use a steamer basket and feel like that maybe a downside. My main goal is to have an easier brew day and still make consistently good beer.

If you're using a paint strainer, or a poorly designed bag for BIAB, it can seem like the whole thing is just as big of a cleanup as 3V.

I had a horribly sewn, double layered bag with a drawstring that just plain sucked. It would be a miracle if I could pull this bag without slopping wort everywhere. I also used to dunk sparge in a 2nd vessel, and used to use a sleeping bag to help maintain the mash temps while I heated the 2nd vessel for the sparge water.

So after 60 or so batches, I eventually sat down one afternoon and sewed a new bag, with triple stitched folded seams so grain wouldn't get caught. It's a three dimensional shape (slightly tapered cylinder with a circular bottom) with no drawstring, or lifting tabs. I use a length of nylon cord tied into a noose for the actual bag removal, and thanks to the new shape, there's no wort slopping anywhere. I had a slight drop in efficiency, which worked itself out after a couple batches with the new equipment.

I also do 10 gal batches using the eBIAB method. I don't currently have a winch - I use a simple pulley and it's manageable (barely). I will likely either motorize it or switch to something that increases mechanical leverage in the sort term. I plan to move to a 3 vessel system in the long term. Unlike the OP, I don't already have my pumps, so the end game is still quite a ways off from a budgeting standpoint.

I agree about needing to have a grain bag that's well-designed and matched to your system. Mine is too big in diameter and can make a mess when lifting out too fast. I'll be making a smaller, tapered bag soon.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but from a beer quality stand point, i never did hear of any significant benefit for 3v vs BIAB? I really have no idea and am curious if mashing in at higher water volumes makes any significant taste difference difference. BIAB typically runs with a higher water to grain ratio vs the traditional 3v system.

I have only done BIAB and have recently acquired a 3v system. I am tempted to sell it as it takes up more space and appears to be more cleanup heavy - 1 pot vs 3pots + 3 different burners and huge aluminum tower (gravity system) I need to find somewhere to store.

I don't have the bag issues stated above; I use a pulley system $13 at homedepot and rubber gloves to squeeze. My wort isn't clear but it doesn't seem to matter as it clears out in the fermentor, more trub in the fermentor i guess?

Well, I have gone ahead and started reworking my system as 3 vessel system now. I can always still do BIAB in one vessel if I want, but I have the flexibility to do it either way now. I have a modified Kal type electric brewery system, and added a switch that will change the HLT outlet between 120 and 240 volts, so I can use my RIMS tube or a second vessel as an HLT. I have tested the electrical, made sure the kettles don't leak and are properly grounded, and ensured that both of the powered vessels work properly, and I recirculated hot PBW to clean it. I am waiting for a few plumbing parts and then will try a test brew. I'll see if moving to 3 vessels makes any difference or if it causes any new problems. The switch was pretty easy to do, but the biggest cost was in 2 more vessels and all the various plumbing fixtures that were needed. I happened to have about 46 feet of 5/8" OD copper tubing lying around to make the coil for the HERMS system.

Isn't this the great thing about this forum? Many have different methods and preferences. Some prefer BIAB some two vessel system and others a three. But all put forth their thoughts and their preferences without talking down to others. Just an observation.

I have a three vessel system and for me it is what I prefer. I rather deal with a mash tun than a bag any day as far as cleaning goes. While I agree that the end product is just as good the process is more enjoyable for me. I love brew days and the multiple steps within the process. Love the toys as well.

I recently changed from BIAB to mash tun 2 vessel set up. I much prefer the mash tun for the brew process. The biag worked, but hated ckeaning the bag the tun is so much eadies. As far as the beer quality, well that us still in the primary. I do see that 3 vessels would be easier and have gotten a second brew pot since that batch. Now I can do bigger boils, yea me!

I started with 4 extracts, then 4 partial mash while setting up my 3 tier gravity system. I have done a couple of BIAB and for small batches it seems OK.

I prefer the 3 vessel for 5 gallon batches.

I have set up my rig in my porch so all the equipment is there and ready. The BIAB in the kitchen is kind of a PITA. The next one will be on the porch.

You should see no difference in the quality either way.