Worth losing a customer over a pack of old yeast?

I will omit the name of the supplier to keep this clean and clear. I started using a new supplier for my past two orders simply because Northern sometimes takes a couple of days after placing my order for it to ship. As a result I often miss my brew day because the ingredients don't arrive within time so I starting using a closer supplier. I was very happy with my first order and everything about my second except for the Wyeast 2112 California Lager yeast I received, it's 5 months old. In the past my yeast orders have always been no more than 6 weeks old, though Northern surely has a high turn over rate. According to the yeast calcs this gives it 10% viability and no matter the starter size it won't be enough for my 1.052 recipe, especially given lager and hybrid yeast need more cell counts.

I called asking if I could possibly receive a store credit for the yeast mentioning the viability and was told they stock yeast up to six months old then discard it since Wyeast says it's good that long. I was told I can keep stepping it up, which IMO isn't worth the time investment for a $6 pack of yeast. I mentioned it would be unfortunate to lose a customer of such a small issue, and I was saying it very politely, not to be a ******, but I would go back to Northern since I've never had such an issue.

So I guess the questions are as follows:

1. Is the viability of the yeast as comprimised as the calcs say? Do the calcs take into account the liquid yeast being refrigerated the whole time?

2. Is it silly of me of me to avoid using the supplier or is it silly of the supplier to not make things right and keep a customer?

3. Are the calcs right that no matter the starter size without stepping it a few times I wouldn't have a good enough cell count for the beer?

This thread is not meant to be a complaint or vent, I honestly would just like to have those questioned answered. I am not angry nor do I will I say the company because this isn't a huge issue. The reason why I said they would lose a customer is not out of anger but because it's postponed my brew day and I would be worried of a repeat issue. Thanks.


Rev.

For my money, you are 100% in the right. If they knew they were sending old yeast to you, they should have sent extra (especially since they were about to throw it away).

From what I've read, the calcs are pretty accurate, refrigeration or not.

You should be able to eventually step it up (people do brew with yeast from the bottom of bottles, after all), but it's likely a LOT of steps, and by then, you are multiple generations in. Not a great thing to do at home.

If the supplier won't mke it right, go elsewhere.

What does Wyeast have to say?

Seems like they should have given you at least partial credit. I ran across an old pack of yeast at my LHBS. I didn't notice but the owner did while he was ringing me up at first just said, "Oh, you're not going to want this pack," but then he remembered that I make really large starters (didn't have to tell him even though it was months ago based on me asking if the mini auto-siphon would reach the bottom of a 5L flask) and he sold it to me for a big discount. The pack worked fine for my starter and the batch turned out great.

homebrewdad said:

From what I've read, the calcs are pretty accurate, refrigeration or not.

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See that's what I'm wondering about. So many people swear by yeast calcs and Mr. Malty so I'm kind of confused. I've read a number of threads where people used year old yeast with just a regular starter and had everything come out fine as usual. But this is the first time I am doing a California Common, I'm actually doing it more of a Pilsner but using this yeast, so I want to be sure the yeast will be fine. If something comes out not so great I don't want to question whether it's my recipe or that I used old yeast


Rev.

I work for a very large home improvement retailer. We are theoretically so big that one customer won't make a difference. HOWEVER, our focus on customer service is second to none. I have ordered product from Florida and shipped it to a customer in Alaska, even though the retail was far less than the cost of shipment, Just so I would make that custoner happy, and we can have return business, its a win win situation. Additonally, word of mouth is the greateat advertisement, for every one customer that you think you lost, you actually lose more like 10 due to them telling others of their issue. Given that this is what I do for my customers, I expect this in the retailers that I shop. Customers are the reason the company exists, not the other way around!!

My point is, you were right in expecting better quality product and the retailer should have been more flexible and gone to great lengths to make you satisfied. Dont feel bad for this. In fact, while I respect that you ommited the name of the company, I would like to know the name so that myself and others can stay clear of them.

I think you should say who the retailer is. It would help others who might not know this particular retailer's policy on how long they keep yeast.

ryno84 said:

I think you should say who the retailer is. It would help others who might not know this particular retailer's policy on how long they keep yeast.

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I think the validity of said retailers claims should be verified with the yeast manufacturer before any semblance of slander is spread, anywhere.

If Wyeast does in fact support that their product is stable for 6 months, then there is no fault on the retailer.

Have you actually tried to make a starter with it? Bobby M did a test on year old stored yeast here; https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f13/testing-limits-yeast-viability-126707/

And my LHBS cells outdated tubes and packs of yeast dirt cheap 2-3 dollars each and I usually grab a couple tubes of belgian or other interesting yeast when I am there and shove it in my fridge. and I have never had a problem with one of those tubes.

I usually make a starter but I once pitched a year old tube of Belgian High Gravity yeast directly into a 2.5 gallon batch of a Belgian Dark Strong, and after about 4 days it took off beautifully.
The purpose of a starter is to reproduce any viable cells in a batch of yeast....that;s how we can grow a starter form the dregs in a bottle of beer incrementally...and that beer may be months old.

To me, if it works it works, and that's all that really matters.

GilaMinumBeer said:

If Wyeast does in fact support that their product is stable for 6 months, then there is no fault on the retailer.

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Good idea, let me see if I can give Wyeast a ring. Will report back on what they say.


Rev.

GilaMinumBeer said:

What does Wyeast have to say?

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Wyeast says they guarantee it to be good to go as long as it hasn't been mishandled.

While I understand the preference for the freshest yeast possible, and certainly encourage people to shop at wherever they feel they will get that, I always find it interesting when people think an HBS should stop selling yeast (or exchange, or send extra yeast, or whatever) which is within the manufacturers recommended usage date.

I'm totally on board that once that date is past, it should be sold with disclaimers, at a reduced price, etc. But the idea that at some arbitrary point prior to the expiration date, they should declare it effectively expired is a curious one to me.

They do not warrant stability. To the contrary, they explicitly state that viability will decline after packaging. They do not estimate a rate of decline. Their warranty follows:

"Warranty

Our Product Warranty states that we guarantee the viability of the yeast in our Activator™ packages for 6 months from the manufacture date assuming that they have been properly shipped, stored and handled. Our superior packaging material provides 100% oxygen barrier and UV light protection making this exceptional guarantee possible. During this 6 month guaranteed shelf life, some loss of viability is to be expected. This will vary from one strain to another. Activator™ packages that are 4 months old or older may require additional time to swell after activation.

Activator™ packages will sometimes swell slightly, or moderately during shipping or later while properly stored. This is not an indication of deterioration if the package is less than 6 months old and has been properly handled. This is result of trace amounts of nutrients, still available at the time packaging, causing small amount of culture activity and CO2 production. Some strains are more prone to this than others."

Seems Wyeast doesn't have any contact numbers on their site. Even a page to Customer Service appears to have their numbers removed. Oh well.


Rev.

Most on-line HBS have a comment section on their order page. Add something like,
"If yeast is more than three months old please contact me before shipping any of this order."

When buying liquid yeast, the freshness matters very much to me. I don't think a retailer should not sell old packages, but I do think that since so many find them to be perfectly acceptable, they shouldn't sell them to me. I buy liquid yeast locally and won't buy it if it's over 30-45 days old.

ryno84 said:

I think you should say who the retailer is. It would help others who might not know this particular retailer's policy on how long they keep yeast.

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GilaMinumBeer said:

I think the validity of said retailers claims should be verified with the yeast manufacturer before any semblance of slander is spread, anywhere.

If Wyeast does in fact support that their product is stable for 6 months, then there is no fault on the retailer.

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I don't think its slander nor assigning any fault on the retailer. The retailer expressed their business practice on how they handle their yeast. If I were to shop there, I think that could be helpful info.

Pilgarlic said:

They do not warrant stability. To the contrary, they explicitly state that viability will decline after packaging. They do not estimate a rate of decline. Their warranty follows:

"Warranty

Our Product Warranty states that we guarantee the viability of the yeast in our Activator™ packages for 6 months from the manufacture date assuming that they have been properly shipped, stored and handled. Our superior packaging material provides 100% oxygen barrier and UV light protection making this exceptional guarantee possible. During this 6 month guaranteed shelf life, some loss of viability is to be expected. This will vary from one strain to another. Activator™ packages that are 4 months old or older may require additional time to swell after activation.

Activator™ packages will sometimes swell slightly, or moderately during shipping or later while properly stored. This is not an indication of deterioration if the package is less than 6 months old and has been properly handled. This is result of trace amounts of nutrients, still available at the time packaging, causing small amount of culture activity and CO2 production. Some strains are more prone to this than others."

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Thus, by this, the retailer is faultless for selling 5 month old yeast and my suggestion is that if Rev2010 feels slighted, then perhaps he should consider only buying yeast from local sources where the package date can be seen prior to sales.

BrewKnurd said:

But the idea that at some arbitrary point prior to the expiration date, they should declare it effectively expired is a curious one to me.

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The issue I have is for the beer I am using Wyeast 2112 in (only 1.052 OG), at the age it's at, even with a starter I won't get even miles within the realm of cell count needed. So effectively, with this pack, even with any size yeast starter, I will still have nowhere near the amount of yeast needed to produce the beer and this is a direct result of it being so old.

So in other words I was sold a product that simply cannot do it's job without my building it up over several repeated steps. For the amount of money I am paid for my time it seems rather illogical to build up a 10% viable hybrid strain over several steps to get to the needed cell count.


Rev.

GilaMinumBeer said:

Thus, by this, the retailer is faultless for selling 5 month old yeast and my suggestion is that if Rev2010 feels slighted, then perhaps he should consider only buying yeast from local sources where the package date can be seen prior to sales.

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Agreed.

Rev2010 said:

Seems Wyeast doesn't have any contact numbers on their site. Even a page to Customer Service appears to have their numbers removed. Oh well.


Rev.

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"....Please call us at 541-354-1335..."

ryno84 said:

I don't think its slander nor assigning any fault on the retailer. The retailer expressed their business practice on how they handle their yeast. If I were to shop there, I think that could be helpful info.

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To blight a retailer for selling a product within the manufacturers recommended date is, in fact, slanderous.

Rev2010 said:

The issue I have is for the beer I am using Wyeast 2112 in (only 1.052 OG), at the age it's at, even with a starter I won't get even miles within the realm of cell count needed. So effectively, with this pack, even with any size yeast starter, I will still have nowhere near the amount of yeast needed to produce the beer and this is a direct result of it being so old.

So in other words I was sold a product that simply cannot do it's job without my building it up over several repeated steps. For the amount of money I am paid for my time it seems rather illogical to build up a 10% viable hybrid strain over several steps to get to the needed cell count.


Rev.

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Another way of stating it might be that you bought a product unaware that it might not suit your purposes. Did they tell you that it would?

If the manufacturer says the product is good for a period of time then the retailer should not be obligated to give a discount because it is not the freshest product they could possibly sell, so long as it is still within the manufacturer's timeframe. It's the same as buying beer. You might prefer to buy the freshest IPA but that doesn't entitle you to a discount if all they have is month old IPA when the expiration date might be three or four months. If you think a discount is required because the yeast is five months old, why not a lesser discount at four months or three months? What about after a month? A week? Seems like an economically infeasible way of doing business.

However, if it matters to you then it matters to you. If they are unwilling to accommodate your needs as a customer, find a store that will.

I sympathize. I too, would be upset if I were in your shoes. Mostly, because a pack of yeast is pretty trivial to a brew supply shop - one of a 1,000 or 10,000 or 100,000 items they have in stock. But for you, it is 1 or 4 ingredients going into your brew that have to be healthy and fresh to get the desired output.

Sure, you can create a starter and step it up to make sure you have healthy, viable yeast, but you could also pay someone else the same $6 and not have to worry about it.

Another point, if Wyeast had shipped the brew shop an entire order of 6 month old yeast, and the brew shop complained, do you think Wyeast would tell the brew shop just to step up all the yeast and sell to the customers? Or, do you think they would apologize for the mistake and ship another supply asap?

Rev2010 said:

So in other words I was sold a product that simply cannot do it's job without my building it up over several repeated steps. For the amount of money I am paid for my time it seems rather illogical to build up a 10% viable hybrid strain over several steps to get to the needed cell count.


Rev.

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Personally, I don't put a lot of faith in the 10% number. Not having a microscope to be able to check myself, I have no evidence to provide one way or the other. But I have a hard time believing that Wyeast would put out a product with a best buy date that was likely to result in such high failure rates as a 10% viable pack of yeast would. This would be a terrible business model.

Without actual cell counts, there's no way to know for sure, and it will remain the word of Wyeast vs the word of the yeast calculators. You have obviously decided to trust the yeast calculator over Wyeast, which is fine, but it is important to keep in mind that neither Wyeast saying "this yeast will work" or the calculator saying "this yeast is 10% viable" are facts. They're both just opinions/assumptions without actual cell counts.

GilaMinumBeer said:

"....Please call us at 541-354-1335..."

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Thanks for that! Just got off the phone with Jess from Wyeast. He said he doesn't agree with the yeast calcs and only 10% viability. I gave him the info and he suggested using a 2 liter starter 2 days before and it should be fine. He then went on to say he always recommends people to get the freshest yeast possible and I should tell the retailer next time, "Hey don't send me such old yeast". So that was kind of a curveball


Rev.

Rev2010 said:

He then went on to say he always recommends people to get the freshest yeast possible and I should tell the retailer next time, "Hey don't send me such old yeast". So that was kind of a curveball


Rev.

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Ha.

To this, I would say that perhaps it's Wyeast that should lose a customer.

Btw guys, please let's not use terms like "slander". I've not mentioned the retailer nor will I. I've stated I am not angry, I just feel a bit disappointed they weren't more accommodating. The whole point is that even if I am wrong and they are right is it worth losing a customer of a $6 pack of yeast that everyone clearly always wants the freshest of? And people are always touting "the customer is always right" but I rarely see that. That's all, perhaps I am being ignorant here. I might just make a starter tonight, brew up the beer Sunday, and see what happens. At least I will know in the future if 5 month old yeast will really matter afterall. A large part of the reason I posted this was to ask about the yeast calcs and people's opinions on the matter. Thanks for all the replies so far guys!


Rev.

GilaMinumBeer said:

To blight a retailer for selling a product within the manufacturers recommended date is, in fact, slanderous.

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With all due respect, you do not know what "slander" means. To slander is to say something not true. He has said nothing untrue about the retailer. All he did was relay what the retailer said, that they sell 5 month old yeast because it is still not expired.

Its not blighting a retailer at all. The retailer is well within their rights to sell it at 5 months old. But, we as consumers, don't have to buy it. I think this board is helpful by others telling their experiences with retailers. That is why I think he should say who the retailer is. It might help someone else when they order from that particular retailer.

Not to get into the middle of "starters are always required" debate but if I have a pack of wyeast less than three months old for a OG 1.055 beer, I won't use a starter. If I get caught with an older pack of yeast, like I just did with a wyeast 3638 that was five months old, I'll make a simple one or two day starter, about 1200ml, no stepping up or anything. Worked great for a 5 gallon batch. Sometimes this happens with the lesser used yeasts.

My point is that saying you'll never get there no matter how many times you step it up is not accurate. I've found that unlike starting with bottle harvested yeast, you can get pretty good results with a very easy starter from a smack pack.

If I were you I would quit using the supply place.
This is the only control we have over companies. We support the ones that treat us right, and let the ones that don't know we aren't happy and then take our business elsewhere.
You might also pass your thoughts on them on to other brewers in an appropriate forum like when you are just talking to another brewer.

Rev2010 said:

And people are always touting "the customer is always right" but I rarely see that.

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I just wish people would stop saying that, because no one ever means it. Otherwise I should just be able to demand all of my purchases be a nickel. I'm right, after all!

I mean, the intent of the phrase is all well and good. The customer is the reason you're there, and you certainly should try to make them happy. But the customer is for damn sure not always right.

I for one failed to answer an important part of your question. It is not, in my opinion, worth losing a customer over. The retailers I work with would make me happy in a similar circumstance even though they might be justified in not doing so. Their customer paid a price while learning something about the product. They can justify a shrug, but that's not great customer service, in my opinion.

BrewKnurd said:

The customer is the reason you're there, and you certainly should try to make them happy. But the customer is for damn sure not always right.

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I agree 100% with you! And I too HATE when people say that because it's plain not true. Was just saying referencing it because it wasn't such a big request on my part. I didn't even ask for a refund, just a credit.

*UPDATE - the person I spoke with at the retailer emailed me to apologize. He stands by what he said on the phone and nothing has changed but he let me know I can call in and ask what the current dates are on the yeast I'm looking to buy to avoid the issue in the future.

Funny, it really would've been that simple. Sadly, in 2 years of brewing I've just never needed to. From now on though I will either call or include the note in the order like another mentioned earlier.


Rev.

Rev2010 said:

The issue I have is for the beer I am using Wyeast 2112 in (only 1.052 OG), at the age it's at, even with a starter I won't get even miles within the realm of cell count needed. So effectively, with this pack, even with any size yeast starter, I will still have nowhere near the amount of yeast needed to produce the beer and this is a direct result of it being so old.

So in other words I was sold a product that simply cannot do it's job without my building it up over several repeated steps. For the amount of money I am paid for my time it seems rather illogical to build up a 10% viable hybrid strain over several steps to get to the needed cell count.


Rev.

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I've used ~10 month old yeast with high success simply by making either a two, or three, step starter. Use the tool on yeastcalc.com to figure out the sizes you need to get the cell count for the batch.

I just ran the numbers, assuming 5.5 gallons going into primary, and using a stirplate, you can go with three starter steps at 1.2L, 1.2L and 1.5L, to get just over the cell count needed for pitching. That changes to 1.5L, 1.5L and 1.8L if you use intermittent shaking instead of the stirplate. So, easily done if you have a 2L flask/jar/vessel. I typically cold crash for 24 hours between each starter step. I've also seen yeast packs over 3 months old take an extra day for the first step. That's with ale yeast, so lager yeast could be different. I would advise using some nutrient in the starters too. Just to help things along.

After this, I wouldn't purchase yeast from that vendor, at the very least. If they think it's acceptable to sell 5 month old yeast, without checking with the customer (before shipping it) or discounting it, I'd wonder about how fresh their grains (and other ingredients) are.

I'd just like to pose a simple question. For those saying they shouldn't sell the customer 5 month old yeast, even though it's guaranteed for 6 months, what should the cutoff be? "Sooner" isn't a cutoff date. In defense of the store, they have their own inventory that is bought, and a portion discarded because it has expired. Obviously this portion would grow if they discarded any yeast packets at 5 months, or 4 months, or 3 months, etc. Sure everyone wants the freshest yeast, but at what yeast age will you no longer shop there because you feel they sold you "old" yeast?

I just personally think a simple note on the order: "please provide yeast with a manufactured on date of xx/xx/xxxx or younger.", is more appropriate than, "I'm never shopping there again because the yeast they sold me was towards the end of the guaranteed viability spectrum."

Golddiggie said:

After this, I wouldn't purchase yeast from that vendor, at the very least. If they think it's acceptable to sell 5 month old yeast, without checking with the customer (before shipping it) or discounting it, I'd wonder about how fresh their grains (and other ingredients) are.

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At what point should they check with the customer? Or should this be an industry standard type of thing?

I think at some point the customer needs to take some responsibility as well. If yeast age under the guaranteed viability date is important to you, then it should be up to YOU to ask that question. If grain date is important to you, it should be up to YOU to ask that question. The store has held up their end of the bargain by selling yeast within its guaranteed date range. Not every single customer will need to be as specific as some on here who won't accept 30 day old yeast. There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with that, however, you can't expect the store to make that assumption.

xjmox14x said:

At what point should they check with the customer? Or should this be an industry standard type of thing?

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If the yeast is over 2-3 months old, they should at least fire off an email about it. If no response within 24 hours, the order goes out. I know I would appreciate such an email. If over 4 months old, any White Labs vials should be discounted. After 6 months, Wyeast should be heavily discounted. It's cheap to send emails off to customers. What it does cost will net serious returns with happy customers ordering more often.

Just my 10 cents worth on that.

Golddiggie said:

If the yeast is over 2-3 months old, they should at least fire off an email about it. If no response within 24 hours, the order goes out. I know I would appreciate such an email. If over 4 months old, any White Labs vials should be discounted. After 6 months, Wyeast should be heavily discounted. It's cheap to send emails off to customers. What it does cost will net serious returns with happy customers ordering more often.

Just my 10 cents worth on that.

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There ya go, I like that. That would actually be a great way for home brew shops to keep good communication lines open with the customer. I think some kind of system like that would actually go over really well.

Golddiggie said:

If the yeast is over 2-3 months old, they should at least fire off an email about it. If no response within 24 hours, the order goes out.

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And then when a customer is pissed that their order shows up on Monday instead of Friday due to the shipping delay? I'm not really fussing you, just pointing out that sometimes solutions create problems of their own.

Golddiggie said:

I know I would appreciate such an email. If over 4 months old, any White Labs vials should be discounted. After 6 months, Wyeast should be heavily discounted. It's cheap to send emails off to customers. What it does cost will net serious returns with happy customers ordering more often.

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I think we can all agree that any yeast past its best buy date should be discounted.

The other thing to keep in mind in all this talk is that the HBS has a lot to balance in all this. They can err on the cautious side around yeast inventory and order minimal yeast at a time. This is more expensive for them from a shipping perspective and makes it more likely that when you go to order specific strains, they won't have it. Or they can err on the side of having more yeast on hand. If they go too far in this direction, then they either lose money from yeast expiring, or from upsetting customers with older yeast.