50 amp vs 30 amp

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BWN

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I am trying to decide if I really need 50a service from my breaker box. I have a new house with plenty of room in the box so that is not a problem. The cost is significantly greater though and I am slowly getting SWMBO's approval but keeping the price down makes it easier to convince her:D. I am trying to figure out what the advantage is to having 50 amps is. I only plan on 5 to 10 gal batches and batch sparging in a cooler mash tun. It would be 2 tier with one pump maybe upgraded to single tier HERMS with 2 pumps later on. I would like to use 2 5500w elements but could use 4500w if that would be too much for 30 amp. From what I have read it seems that I just wouldn't be able to run the BK and HLT at the same time.
 
Where in your home do you plan to use this power outlet? If in the garage or "outside" then 50 amps or more is a good idea. Y ou never know when you might decide to weld, or upgrade to a big water heater and several heating elements on your tower. If you can afford it go with the 50amps just to insure you have what you need now and well into the future. SWMBO will never go for an expensive "upgrade" later on since you spent money the first time. Just my .02, but it is easier to ask for forgiveness than to get more money later.
Have fun, just don't piss her off....
Bob
 
BWN said:
I am trying to decide if I really need 50a service from my breaker box. I have a new house with plenty of room in the box so that is not a problem. The cost is significantly greater though and I am slowly getting SWMBO's approval but keeping the price down makes it easier to convince her:D. I am trying to figure out what the advantage is to having 50 amps is. I only plan on 5 to 10 gal batches and batch sparging in a cooler mash tun. It would be 2 tier with one pump maybe upgraded to single tier HERMS with 2 pumps later on. I would like to use 2 5500w elements but could use 4500w if that would be too much for 30 amp. From what I have read it seems that I just wouldn't be able to run the BK and HLT at the same time.
Click to expand...

Brian,

I think I am just going with 30 AMP...can always upgrade later if needed. I cut my kegs this morning, cutting the old one was a pain but got it ok, and the other one was pretty easy...going to start working on the electrical control box now....
 
Two 5500w elements firing at the same time for a long duration is way too much for a 30a circuit and may be still too much for a 50a circuit. A 4500w and 5500w element firing together should be OK for long term use on a 50a circuit.

If the plan is to run a 5500w element in the various brewery components at separate times, then the 30a will be fine. I know that in my case, I will be wanting to heat my sparge water while I'm still running my RIMS. That means that I would have been toying with the potential of tripping a 30a circuit under that condition. I opted for 50a and run my RIMS with 4500w and the HLT with 5500w. Its good.
 
I would have gone with a dedicated 60 amp service to your brew area if it were me. If you are talking about a HERMS system you will probably not stop there. It might be more money up front but less than up grading later. You don’t want to have a power failure in the middle of your brew day. The other option is to supplement with propane unless this is all inside brewing, then I would put a hood over the kettle. My next house will have a custom brew room. I’m not Obsessed, no I’m addicted to brewing!
 
Rbeckett said:
Where in your home do you plan to use this power outlet? If in the garage or "outside" then 50 amps or more is a good idea. Y ou never know when you might decide to weld, or upgrade to a big water heater and several heating elements on your tower. If you can afford it go with the 50amps just to insure you have what you need now and well into the future. SWMBO will never go for an expensive "upgrade" later on since you spent money the first time. Just my .02, but it is easier to ask for forgiveness than to get more money later.
Have fun, just don't piss her off....
Bob
Click to expand...

The power outlet will be in the basement about 50 feet from my breaker box. I have a gas powered hot water heater and have access to welders where I work so I can't really see a need for the outlet other than brewing.

Thanks for the replies it eases my mind that it is possible to accomplish what I need for little less $
 
5500w/240v=23 amps. That by itself is pushing it for a 30 amp circuit, much less two of them. If you are going to run 2 elements at once I would at the very least go with a 50A circuit and use a 4500w and 5500w. If only using one at a time, then go ahead with the 5500w but I would bump the circuit size to 40A.
 
Bernie Brewer said:
5500w/240v=23 amps. That by itself is pushing it for a 30 amp circuit, much less two of them. If you are going to run 2 elements at once I would at the very least go with a 50A circuit and use a 4500w and 5500w. If only using one at a time, then go ahead with the 5500w but I would bump the circuit size to 40A.
Click to expand...

I can get away with running just one at a time.
 
I'm using a 30A circuit running 2 5500w elements(one at a time) with 2 pumps running consistently, and I have no problems. Ive taken several amp draws and the max reading was 26.3A.
 
zeus53219 said:
I'm using a 30A circuit running 2 5500w elements(one at a time) with 2 pumps running consistently, and I have no problems. Ive taken several amp draws and the max reading was 26.3A.
Click to expand...

Sounds about right. You are still over, though. 80% of 30A is 24. If it was me I would bump it up to 40. You will be well within tolerances.
 
Bernie Brewer said:
Sounds about right. You are still over, though. 80% of 30A is 24. If it was me I would bump it up to 40. You will be well within tolerances.
Click to expand...
Just a note: The 80% "rule" does not apply to a circuit with a single outlet. It is meant for a multi outlet circuit and it also applies to the wiring designer and the installing electrician. It does not apply to the home owned.

It is perfectly sound and Ok to set up and run a single outlet circuit at its rated value.
 
What about running 2 30A lines? having your panel/pumps/element for HLT running off of one, and using a relay to switch power on/off to the 2nd element in the BK on its own dedicated 30A service. If this was possible, (say in a new installation) is this a way to run 2 elements at once?
 
Dr_Deathweed said:
What about running 2 30A lines? having your panel/pumps/element for HLT running off of one, and using a relay to switch power on/off to the 2nd element in the BK on its own dedicated 30A service. If this was possible, (say in a new installation) is this a way to run 2 elements at once?
Click to expand...

That will certainly work. I have a similar setup. 50A to my HLT control/element(s) - I haven't upgraded to a second element yet. 30A to my boil/pump panel and element.
 
I thought I needed a 50 amp service, but it didn't work out that way. I just unplug the hlt after the element in the boil kettle is covered (fly sparge) and the water(HLT) stays hot enough during the entire sparge. Then I can begin heating the boil kettle as it fills, works great.
 
I am still trying to decide what to do. Like everything else in this hobby I always want more later on. I might move my brewery closer to my breaker box and end up using 50 amp. I think I will get my control panel built first then decide.
 
P-J said:
Just a note: The 80% "rule" does not apply to a circuit with a single outlet. It is meant for a multi outlet circuit and it also applies to the wiring designer and the installing electrician. It does not apply to the home owned.

It is perfectly sound and Ok to set up and run a single outlet circuit at its rated value.
Click to expand...


I dunno how it is done in NC, but around here it doesn't matter who does the work. It must be to code.

And the 80% rule is for continuous loads, or loads that will be at or near max capacity for three hours or more. I think a brewday qualifies for that. I would go with the 80% rule.
 
Bernie Brewer said:
I dunno how it is done in NC, but around here it doesn't matter who does the work. It must be to code.

And the 80% rule is for continuous loads, or loads that will be at or near max capacity for three hours or more. I think a brewday qualifies for that. I would go with the 80% rule.
Click to expand...

The only thing I can say is RTFM.

Perhaps then you will understand 'code'.
 
I am not an electrician, but I know how to read and ask questions. This is what I came up with.

An individual branch circuit can supply any load for which it's rated [210.23].
- I think you can use as many amps as what the circuit is rated for.

Cord-and-plug connected equipment not fastened in place must not have an ampere rating more than 80% of the branch-circuit rating [210.23(A)(1)].
- I think you never know what someone may plug into the multiple outlets, you should provide some overhead.

If the loads continue for more than three hours, then the conductor must have an ampacity 125% of the continuous load [210.19(A)(1)].
- I think I don't know what time frame qualifies as a break in the load. 1, 5, 20 minutes?

My conclusion:
I know the exact load that will be on my circuits, I'm going to use every bit of capacity my breaker is rated for and turn off my equipment at least once every 3 hours for a beer break.
 
mateomtb said:
If the loads continue for more than three hours, then the conductor must have an ampacity 125% of the continuous load [210.19(A)(1)].
Click to expand...


Ok, my bad. I said the 80% rule applied instead of this one. However, although it is worded differently, it is saying the exact same thing. If you do the math, sizing the conductors to 125% of the load is same as keeping the load to 80% of the circuit's rated capacity.
 
lschiavo said:
I could argue that the 80% rule doesn't apply but the only harm that can come from using oversized wire is a dent in the wallet. And if I were to argue, I'd try to be more tactful.
Click to expand...

I agree - My bad - However.

Bernie Brewer said:
Fine. Prove me wrong. Quote me the code chapter and verse. I will eat crow if needs be.
Click to expand...
I've studied and followed the NEC since the 1950's. At this point I have nothing to 'prove' to you. The code is what it is. You either understand it and follow it or you don't. Apparently you do not.

Oh: And this is not an argument.
 
Bernie Brewer said:
Ok, my bad. I said the 80% rule applied instead of this one. However, although it is worded differently, it is saying the exact same thing. If you do the math, sizing the conductors to 125% of the load is same as keeping the load to 80% of the circuit's rated capacity.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I can see how that works out, didn't look at the math that way. Just talking out loud here and not pointed at anyone specifically. That math still only applies if your operating over 80% for 3 continuous hours right? I still wonder citing [210.19(A)(1)] what time frame "resets" the 3 hour window. So if you're using 28amp of a 30amp circuit and you turn off your element and are just running pumps for 20 minutes using something like 3amp, have you "reset" the three hours of continuous use, or do you have to fully power down and for how long?

BTW I've been looking at this stuff for the last few months as I am building my system. I already had these sections of the code pulled aside in my own research. I've enjoyed educating myself on some of this stuff and feel solid in my design and use case on the load of my circuits. I'm still triple checking with my electrician pals though:D
 
lschiavo said:
Does it need to be a flexible connection? It should work fine but you may find a better price on NM-B cable.
Click to expand...

Thanks I will look for that this just seemed to be the cheapest I have found so far. Can you buy NM-B that can support 50 amps?
 
BWN said:
Thanks I will look for that this just seemed to be the cheapest I have found so far. Can you buy NM-B that can support 50 amps?
Click to expand...

Yes. NM-B is just standard romex. You should be able to find #6 at any electrical supply store. If the cord is cheaper it will be fine.
 

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