Just thinking out loud here- 50gal self-cleaning fermenter?

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Sir Humpsalot

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I recently got a new hot water heater installed. I am no longer bathing in StarSan. But that got me thinking...

Hot water heaters hold sanitized water, right? They heat it up to like 150 degrees, a pasteurization temp, and hold it there. Sooooo.....

Could you use a hot water heater as a self-sanitizing fermentation vessel? Of course, you would turn off the heat when fermenting, and you'd still need access to the top to clean it out... but it's probably stainless steel on the inside, right?

Now, I'm sure this has been tried before... and there's probably some good reasons that this would not work... but I can't think of any. Anybody else care to throw in their two cents?
 
Are you thinking of using a gas hot water heater or electric?

Its been a while since I've looked closely at a hot water tank but...

Not positive that all hot water heaters have a stainless tank, I'd think they would be using a less expensive metal.

Obviously you would be removing the water out pipe, they go down from the top to take the hot water off of the bottom by the heating element. You would not need the pressure relief valve either. Other than those parts you would have a large pot.

You might run into some seams inside where the tank is assembled, I'm pretty sure they are not one peice or welded. Those seams might be hard to get cleaned out all the way, but... you are also able to get it up to a temp to kill a lot of bugs..

You might be able to get the temps when you clean it out even higher by some adjustments to the burner valve, I think there is a safety thing that does not allow the water to get up to boiling.

Interesting thought.. be easier to talk SWMBO into upgrading our hot water heater than it would be to convince her the need for buying a large fermentor like this! lol

Ray
 
Try it out and let us know. Personally...my "thoughts" would be: why? If it's just out of curiosity, then go for it...but a couple things to ponder before you do so:

  1. How often are you going to be fermenting 50 gallons?
  2. Do you really want an ugly water heater sitting around taking up space on the off chance that you might brew a 45-gallon batch someday? Because you're not gonna wanna use the thing for small batches.
  3. How are you going to clean out a 50-gallon tank?
  4. How are you going to siphon from a 50-gallong tank?
  5. How are you going to create a seal on a 50 gallon tank?
  6. Do you really want to call a plumber back over to hook up the gas line again?
  7. If it's electric, do you really want to be trying to clean it out alot?
  8. Do you want me to continue?

:mug: Seriously, dude, it's your choice if you want to experiment. I'm just not optimistic.
 
Yeah, I'm nowhere near ready to do 40 gallon batches, nor am I able/ready to take up that much of the basement on a permanent basis to do this experiment. It's a major commitment, for sure. But, a 40 gallon self-sanitizing fermenter for $350 sounds awfully appealing... And, if your hot water heater goes, you have a back up!!!

Now, about the large batch issue. Well, yes, 40 or 50 gallons is overkill. However, this is cheaper than a 10 gallon conical, so cost-wise it's a win, though you'd probably want to upgrade to 20+ gallon batches just to justify the size. That's ok though. I could invite friends over. :)

Cleaning could be done with a toilet brush on a long handle or a mop or whatever. Sanitation would be automatic, just fill it with water, heat it, and let it sit for 12 hours.

You don't need to siphon from a water heater, they have their own valve at the bottom! Just open it up!

Creating a seal isn't difficult. It doesn't have to hold more than a fraction of a psi. Lots of off-the-shelf rubber gasket material could do the trick.

Calling a plumber to hook up the gas line? Well, it's still cheaper than buying a large conical...

If it's electric, I dunno, are they hard to clean out? I never had an electric one before.

I think that's all the issues you've brought up so far. I'm not saying my "solutions" are simple as pie, but they are, I believe, within the realm of simple feasibility. So, Yes, please... continue. :)



Edit to add: One other thought... in some European countries, you are taxed based on the size of your water heater. I wonder if you could find a 10 or 20 gallon one somewhere? That would be even better!!!
 
Damn Squirrels said:
Yeah, I'm nowhere near ready to do 40 gallon batches, nor am I able/ready to take up that much of the basement on a permanent basis to do this experiment. It's a major commitment, for sure. But, a 40 gallon self-sanitizing fermenter for $350 sounds awfully appealing... And, if your hot water heater goes, you have a back up!!!

It's appealing until you realize that this thing would have to stationary. And self-sanitizing doesn't mean self-cleaning. You'd have to soak it with oxyclean or PBW, then scrub it, then SIPHON all that out, each time. Whew.
 
Evan! said:
It's appealing until you realize that this thing would have to stationary. And self-sanitizing doesn't mean self-cleaning. You'd have to soak it with oxyclean or PBW, then scrub it, then SIPHON all that out, each time. Whew.

No... you could soak it with water.. you wouldn't have to use oxyclean or anything. Just scrub it with plain water... the sanitation will come when you heat the water. As for draining it, I have a drain in the middle of the basement. Just run a hose from the water heater, directly down the drain. I wouldn't even need a pump!!!
 
Every dead water heater I've ever seen was chock full of rust. EDIT: also sand.
Some of them are glasslike inside, like an old school thermos.
 
http://home.howstuffworks.com/water-heater1.htm

A heavy inner steel tank that holds the hot water

Typically, this tank holds 40 to 60 gallons. It has to be able to hold the pressure of a residential water system, which typically runs at 50 to 100 pounds per square inch (psi). The tank is tested to handle 300 psi. The steel tank normally has a bonded glass liner to keep rust out of the water.

I guess when that cracks...rust.
 
Well, it sounds interesting...very interesting in fact. If of course you were looking to do big big batches like that.

I think you've answered all the questions Evan! has brought up with some good simple answers...seems feasable.

Also, I've seen small (maybe 20 gall? not sure) water heaters....I used to work at office depot and they had one about that size.

Good luck if you decide to do this.

Also, what would you use for a mash tun?
 
greenhornet said:
Well, it sounds interesting...very interesting in fact. If of course you were looking to do big big batches like that.

I think you've answered all the questions Evan! has brought up with some good simple answers...seems feasable.

Also, I've seen small (maybe 20 gall? not sure) water heaters....I used to work at office depot and they had one about that size.

Good luck if you decide to do this.

Also, what would you use for a mash tun?

Mash tun? Beats me. :) :fro:
 
Cut it open and look at the inside. Yes, it'll be ruined for what you're thinking, but once you see the inside, you won't want to brew in it anyhow.
 
Shoot, thats pretty much bright tank and a serving tank. You could carbonate in it no problem especially if rated to 300psi!!!! Of course....then you have to have it stay cold. hmmm...turn your garage into a walk-in....mwahahaha
I know where there are a bunch of old water heaters, I'm gonna see if I can't crack one open and take a peek at the innards too.
 
Comparing a hot water heater to a conical isn't really fair either. I mean, you're not getting a conical out of the water heater either. I'd rather ferment a big batch in a food grade 55 gallon drum and that's only 20 bucks if you find them.

If you've seen how nasty a fermenter gets on a single batch, you know full well that a little 160dF water and a rinse isn't going to get it clean enough. Your second (if not the first) batch would be so infected.

The closest brewing use I can think of for a water heater is a HLT, and then that's even questionable. Perhaps if you bought it new, and backflushed often. I'd tend to move towards an on-demand water heater instead though.
 
Bobby_M said:
...I'd rather ferment a big batch in a food grade 55 gallon drum and that's only 20 bucks if you find them.

My LHBS guy has offered them to me for free. He gets them fairly regularly too.... maybe I should take him up on one of those... for a bbq smoker anyway!
 
You could use a front loading washing machine for a MLT. Now we're thinkin outside the box!
 
All this talk on how are you going to get it clean.... just put in a cup or 2 of dishsoap, fill it up, turn it on and let it sit overnight! If your not sure it's clean from that do it again. I have had my blowoff tube in a 6.5 gallon carboy clogged on a slightly less than 5 gallon batch and I diddn't have to even insert my carboy brush to get ALL that gunk off. That one took 2 applications of dishsoap and a longer soak time. 2 nights instead of one. SCREW scrubbing, fill'er up and forget. I'm not sure how to get the gunk out of the bottom, the rust/sand/etc... to begin with, but once it is out of there I think it is a KILLER idea. I have come to believe that there are alot of people who won't think outside the box. I hope someday they stop being closeminded and think innovatively. Although some of the arguements are valid. I know someone who got a REALLLLLLY old hot water heater and converted it to a fermenter. The tank was glass though. To clean it they just used some powdered cleaner. I wasn't homebrewing at that time (I was 15, but wanted to, LOL!!) so I diddn't pay attention to what it was that they used to clean it, i just know it was powdered something. I was more interested in the hardware and the finished product. (I got a small taste, it was killer, my dad thought it sucked. He also likes Old Milwauke Light.... which begs the question...) Anyhow, I LOVE this idea. I think it is one of the better ones i've seen in a long time. On a side note, I have seen someone that used a tiny hot water heater as the boil pot or whatever it's called, for a Still. They had a ranco controller hooked up to it to keep the temp at whatever it needs to be at to do the job. There's some out of the box thinking. It worked better than any stainless steel pot on a propane burner set up that I could think of.
 
Consider active cooling since water heaters are insulated to retain heat. The bigger the batch the more heat to disapate. Fermentations are exothermic so unless you add a coil and a chiller unit, you will have a huge batch of estery solvent. Hot water heaters can work for a HLT but a fermenter seems like a bit of a stretch.
Cheers,
EMB
 
ALL cheap h2O htrs have Glass liners, however, you can get a non-glass lined stainless tank for about $800-1000. I'm with the rest though, you can't see inside the htr very well/at all, how are you gonna know if you get all the nasties out from fermentation?
 
olllllo said:
I believe the rust and junk that collects in a hot water tank comes from the pipes feeding it. If it was the tank you would soon have a leak in the tank. Still have the same difficulty of cleaning the tank initially.
As for cleaning after a ferment, an overnight application of PBW followed by a sanitation heat cycle should prevent and infections. Unlike using a liquid sanitizer, a long application of heat will kill even if the bugs are hiding under something. Still I would feel much better if I could see how clean it was.
I think even Home Depot has smaller tanks. I know 25 and 30 gal tanks are common. There are also several point of use hot water heaters that have 2-5 gal sizes. However you probably won't see much in between these sizes as a smaller tank would be too small for a shower and over sized for point of use.

Craig
 
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