How much better is all grain Vs. Extract brewing??

I have been thinking alot lately about making the switch to all grain and was just wondering how much difference is really noticable? Is it worth it, i guess is what im really asking.

From my experience, I have made excellent all grain, partial mash, and extract beers. Each method definitely has it's own benefits and issues. Extract is very repeatable, but more expensive and can be limiting due to the few types if malt extract available. Steeping grains can make up for this. All grain gives much more freedom to create recipes, and is considerably less expensive. That being said it will likely take you another two hours per batch and it can be difficult to replicate batches if you don't have your process dialed in and keep good notes.

I don't think that all-grain makes better beer, for what it is worth.

I think it's totally worth it, because it's then 100% your product, and you have access to create recipes on your own, rather than just doing pre-packaged kits or recipes that others have done for you. You also can adjust the fermentability of the recipe, leading to heavier or drier beers, much easier than with extract brewing. You can create clones of favorite beers, and you can create new styles that merge your favorite flavors. It's marginally cheaper, and you get to play with/DIY more equipment!

I made the jump not long after I started extract brewing. Here's what I've noticed:

1) It adds time to the brew day - somewhere between 90 minutes and 2 hours additional, plus some additional cleanup (rinse out the MLT, screen, mash/sparge water vessels, and some more hosing).

2) I use twice as much energy (propane) in the process, because you need to bring your mash & sparge water up to temp. I've taken to doing that part on the stovetop, which means that I tie up part of the kitchen on brewdays now - fortunately, my bride doesn't seem to mind.

3) You will make more mess. Grinding grain is a dusty process, with husks inevitably getting out of the bucket onto the floor. Your mash/lauter tun may leak a bit of sticky wort onto the floor (or shoot it out of the ball valve, if it's at all like my last batch). It smells marvelous, however!

Going all grain will not make your beer 'better'. It merely gives you a greater range of factors you can control to dial in the precise flavors you are looking to achieve.

Determining whether it is 'worth' it is a pretty personal call. Some people try it and never go back. Some people try it and just doesn't appeal. My suggestion: find an all grain brewer in your area and see if they will let you use their all grain gear (and perhaps their help learning) for a batch to see if its something that is a good fit for you.

(or use the method outlined in this post https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f14/all-grain-brewing-extract-brewing-equipment-pics-142648/ -- I'venever tried it but it looks like it woudl work theoretically.

I love AG. I will never go back to extract. I guess technically it is the same as a partial mash if you replace the base grains with the extract, but I love milling my grains and running my fingers through 20# of cracked malt.

If you can make great extract beer, you can probably make good all-grain beers. Way too many people make the jump before they know how to make even good beer.

Personally, the method I use depends on the style. One reason I still make mostly PM, I can get the makings ahead of time and freeze the cracked grain. I have no desire to buy a mill, storage bins, etc. And then there's the rodent problem. Had to buy a steel garbage can after some critter chewed though the plastic one.

Being worth it is 100% based on your own opinion and goals with brewing. If you like the brew day and don't mind making it longer with more variables than it's worth it. I love all grain much more than extract but I didn't stick with extract brewing for very long to get a rhythm going (2 batches).

Again, completely a personal preference that makes it "worth it".

+1 on many sentiments already expressed. All-Grain is not inherently "better" -- plenty of people have won competitions with extract/partial mash beers.

AG will take longer, and will require a bit more thought and a bit more equipment.

On the other hand, if you enjoy this hobby, then spending MORE time and MORE thought and having MORE equipment is awesome!

If you are really just in it for a quick(er) and easier process and you are happy with the perfectly drinkable beer you are making already, then AG may not be your bag. It won't magically make the beer better -- you have to put the work in and spend the time yourself to make that happen. In fact, your first few AG batches may turn out worse, but that's all part of the learning process.

david_42 said:

If you can make great extract beer, you can probably make good all-grain beers. Way too many people make the jump before they know how to make even good beer.

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Very true. I think treating your yeast right (controlling pitching rates and fermentation temperatures) is more important than extract vs. grain.

kuphish said:

Very true. I think treating your yeast right (controlling pitching rates and fermentation temperatures) is more important than extract vs. grain.

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I agree, there's a lot of reasons to move into all-grain, but when your beer doesn't taste good enough and you don't know why, all-grain probably won't solve the problem.

When you find your recipes just aren't able to get the beer right, or you want to try something new, those are good reasons to take the next step.

I think its basically the difference between making your own crayon drawing instead of coloring between the lines. Extract gives you a frame work, but it hard to go outside of it. All grain gives you a clean sheet. But, this also means more can go wrong.

cford1 said:

I think its basically the difference between making your own crayon drawing instead of coloring between the lines. Extract gives you a frame work, but it hard to go outside of it. All grain gives you a clean sheet. But, this also means more can go wrong.

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Does that make Partial Mash like connect-the-dots?

Book-on-tape vs. read it yourself.

A well made extract beer will always be better than a poorly made all grain beer.

However, in the right hands, all grain can be better than extract. So, it's not so much the technique, it's the brewer who determines how good the beer will be.

It should also be mentioned there there is really a whole spectrum in between extract-only brewing and all-grain brewing. You can make significant steps towards more creative flavor-making and more different styles by steeping specialty grains in addition to using extract. You can take another step by steeping/sparging a small quantity of base grains in addition to extract (and possibly specialty grains as well). In fact, many stores sell retail extract kits with specialty grains (that is what I brew most often), and with the proper use of those and other additives (like candi sugar, steamed oak chips, etc.), you really can replicate the flavors of _most_ (but probably not all) all-grain recipes.

Try taking small steps.

Its MUCH better, NUF SAID

Honestly though, you just get a LOT more room to play with a recipe and have fun with what you are doing, including A LOT more ways to screw a brew up. But I recommend the transfer to anyone, if you have to room for the equip and the money its totally worth it, plus you can build an all grain setup for fairly cheap, just search around the forums for ways to build the setup, there are a ton of threads out there.

IMO, all-grain is much better. I made around 10 extract brews and they all had that twangy bitter taste. I switched to all grain. Much better. I would never go back. After my mash is finished and I'm draining that sweet wort..Doesn't get any better than that..My beers taste great now...

My beer got better after I switched to all-grain. Whether or not switching was the reason, I don't know.. But, I like to think I'm all around a better brewer than when I started. The knowledge I accrued while researching the equipment/processes involved with all-grain is more valuable than the $$ I spent to get going.

As someone else posted, it takes longer, but it means I spend more time doing something I love. Seems fair.

When I started I didn't know much about my water chemistry, and probably should have tried a batch of extract with distilled water (I might try that next week, actually)...might have given me better extract results. Doing a full-boil would have helped as well.

Jason

I like the flexibility "all grain" allowed me in brewing. It also allowed me to reduce some of my brewing ingredient cost. For a pale ale I made as an extract kit, Id pay about $25 to $30. That same recipe in "all grain" runs about $14 bucks for me now. It also has a cleaner taste.

It's

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this much better!

Seriously, all-grain is cheaper, gives you more more control and more options, but it's also easier to screw up if you don't know what you are doing.

AG is more enjoyable to me. The same way that I enjoy making my pizza from a yeast starter as opposed to buying pre made dough.

My AG is better than my extract which is a combination of it being fresher, my skill level has improved since I started. I think that I could probably switch back to extract and make a much better beer from it but then I would have all this extra equipment that I would have to stare at. AG certainly gives more flexibility and I have not even scratched the surface of what you can really do as I am kind of locked into a few beer styles at this point.

Either way beats store bought beer.

I do both.

All grain is more enjoyable but during the sleet storm we are having now, I am doing a mini-mash. The AG stuff is up in the shed and too much to get during this kind of weather.

I like to get the Chocolate Raspberry Stout from AHS to brew once a month in winter. I don't have a garage or brew shed, uggg.

And the stove doesn't do a 6.25-gallon boil.

What can I add that hasn't been said before?

Generally AG is better than Extract, but only if the person brewing can already make good extract beers. And the important word is "can". There are no guarantees.

You have more control of the flavor profile, but more stuff to calculate and temps to maintain.

I'd say that if you are confident in your extract ability, and want to get a bit more involved, then AG is a great way to advance your knowledge and get a bit more hands-on. You will not be relying on some other guy to determine your fermentability. You will be able to make a lighter colored beer. You may get more enjoyment out of the brewing process. You will likely have a longer brew day...

Homercidal said:

You have more control of the flavor profile, but more stuff to calculate and temps to maintain.

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Flavor profile is just the start. You also have control of mouthfeel, fermentability, freshness, clarity, and much more. Sure, people can make decent extract beer. But as much as people want to tout the few extract beers that have won medals, all grain beer made correctly will trump extract beer any day of the week.

carnevoodoo said:

Flavor profile is just the start. You also have control of mouthfeel, fermentability, freshness, clarity, and much more. Sure, people can make decent extract beer. But as much as people want to tout the few extract beers that have won medals, all grain beer made correctly will trump extract beer any day of the week.

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There are a TON of extract beers that have won medals.


A great brewer making extract will make better beer than a good brewer doing AG. Two great brewers, would both make great beer.


This is the same issue as dry vs wet yeast. Both will make fantastic beer, there just are certain beers you can't make with one of them.

Synovia said:

This is the same issue as dry vs wet yeast. Both will make fantastic beer, there just are certain beers you can't make with one of them.

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No, it really isn't. Everyone knows that while limited, the few good strains of dry yeast are as good as the liquid yeast. That has NOTHING to do with what I'm talking about.

Extract is limiting in many ways, one being the level of fermentability. If I want a super dry IPA, I can mash low to convert more starch. If I want it more malty, I mash higher. That right there makes extract a less controllable product.

Color is another issue. You can only get a beer so pale with extract before you're done.

I won't even start on cost, which in my opinion makes it better...

Can extract make good beer? Sure. But the level of control you can get from all grain is still not possible with extract. You can only dial in a beer so far before you run into big brick walls, and there's a reason every great brewer has an all grain rig around.

carnevoodoo said:

No, it really isn't. Everyone knows that while limited, the few good strains of dry yeast are as good as the liquid yeast. That has NOTHING to do with what I'm talking about.

Extract is limiting in many ways, one being the level of fermentability. If I want a super dry IPA, I can mash low to convert more starch. If I want it more malty, I mash higher. That right there makes extract a less controllable product.

Color is another issue. You can only get a beer so pale with extract before you're done.

I won't even start on cost, which in my opinion makes it better...

Can extract make good beer? Sure. But the level of control you can get from all grain is still not possible with extract. You can only dial in a beer so far before you run into big brick walls, and there's a reason every great brewer has an all grain rig around.

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Don't know as I really agree with you here. I can get mine as pale as ya want it,,,, It cost me around $6 for 6 gals,,,, maybe $6.50 for a darker.

But then again, Im not an extract brewer either, I get my stuff from the grocercy store.

Stagnasty said:

Don't know as I really agree with you here. I can get mine as pale as ya want it,,,, It cost me around $6 for 6 gals,,,, maybe $6.50 for a darker.

But then again, Im not an extract brewer either, I get my stuff from the grocercy store.

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Care to share a little more detail what you mean by "I get my stuff from the grocery store"? Inquiring minds would like to know...

DRoyLenz said:

Care to share a little more detail what you mean by "I get my stuff from the grocery store"? Inquiring minds would like to know...

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Sure, I use 1/2 bottle of molasses, 10lbs of table sugar, a pack of bakers yeast

I let it primary for 4 weeks, bottle it for 3 weeks, yeilds 9.5% and tastes great!! I think, but then again I liked light beer before i started making my own,,, ya know

Not getting into the debate, but here's my personal take on it, as a relatively recent convert to AG after doing some extract brews:

You can go to Dell, 'customize' a computer, add a monitor/UPS/etc. buy it as a package, and have it shipped directly to your door. It'll run Windows/Office/Photoshop just fine.

OR, you can buy the parts and build your own computer to your own personal specs. Sometimes this is the only way to fine tune exactly what you want in your machine, and it might be cheaper than buying exactly what you want from someone else, but might take more time.

So, both can produce excellent results, just like extract vs. grain, but you can tweak grain recipes easier than extract, and it'll cost less in supplies (but more in start up materials). Once you go all grain, though, it's really hard to go back to extract (IMO).

Ksosh said:

Not getting into the debate, but here's my personal take on it, as a relatively recent convert to AG after doing some extract brews:

You can go to Dell, 'customize' a computer, add a monitor/UPS/etc. buy it as a package, and have it shipped directly to your door. It'll run Windows/Office/Photoshop just fine.

OR, you can buy the parts and build your own computer to your own personal specs. Sometimes this is the only way to fine tune exactly what you want in your machine, and it might be cheaper than buying exactly what you want from someone else, but might take more time.

So, both can produce excellent results, just like extract vs. grain, but you can tweak grain recipes easier than extract, and it'll cost less in supplies (but more in start up materials). Once you go all grain, though, it's really hard to go back to extract (IMO).

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Thanks for this response,, you are the only one here that hasn't lambasted me for my recipe,,,,,, are you sure your a brewer?????

The first extract batch I brewed was a Red Ale, and it was delicious after conditioning for a few months. But I had done my research, and I was a little disappointed in how simple it was. I have since brewed only a few all-grain batches, and one of them was a Red Ale. My AG Red Ale was better than the extract batch (even though there was more work involved), and my little brother and my Dad thought it was the tits. I take more pride in my AG beers than I did in my extract batches. I made the transition slowly. I did BIAB (Brew In A Bag) for a couple batches, and decided that the beers weren't as good as I would like them to be, so I made a MLT and now I'm kegging and I haven't looked back. I love telling people, "You like that beer? Yeah, I made it from scratch!" Most of them have lots of questions and are thinking about starting brewing themselves. I love all-grain brewing, and I used to be very intimidated by it, but thanks to this forum, the transition was easy and fun, and the beer tastes GREAT!

carnevoodoo said:

Flavor profile is just the start. You also have control of mouthfeel, fermentability, freshness, clarity, and much more. Sure, people can make decent extract beer. But as much as people want to tout the few extract beers that have won medals, all grain beer made correctly will trump extract beer any day of the week.

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I think you may be overestimating the number of reasons you think AG gives you more control. I do both extract and AG, plus partial mash. Let's look at each item you claim AG gives you more control over:

• control of mouthfeel,
  I have control over this with extract too. Mouthfeel is largely determined by carbonation and non-fermentables (body) right?
  
  
• fermentability,
  AG has the edge here, I agree, but you can control this with extract too - if you want high fermentability, use extracts that have higher fermentability or use some corn sugar. If you want lower fermentability, use some dark extract, more specialty grains in steeping, or maltodextrin.
  
  
• freshness,
  Definitely have control over this with extract. Just buy fresh extract from a good supplier.
  
  
• clarity,
  Definitely have control over this with extract. Use finings, proper conditioning time and cold conditioning and you can get great clarity in extract beers too.
  
  
• and much more
  like what?
  

My list of the two things that can't be done with extract would be base malt flavor profile (already mentioned in this thread) and fermentability (but like I said above, there are ways to cheat at this with extract so it's not as big a deal as it seems in my opinion).

Stagnasty said:

Thanks for this response,, you are the only one here that hasn't lambasted me for my recipe,,,,,, are you sure your a brewer?????

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If you can drink it, then by all means brew whatever you want, who am I to judge. It probably tastes a hell of a lot better than DFH's Festina Peche sour (only beer I've dumped down the sink to date). Though I'd personally rather use the $6 on PBR if I wasn't going to pay the extra for an all-grain recipe.

Ksosh said:

If you can drink it, then by all means brew whatever you want, who am I to judge. It probably tastes a hell of a lot better than DFH's Festina Peche sour (only beer I've dumped down the sink to date). Though I'd personally rather use the $6 on PBR if I wasn't going to pay the extra for an all-grain recipe.

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I've drunk a bunch of PBR, and my homebrew is WAY better, if it wern't, I'd still be drinking the swill

agusus said:

I think you may be overestimating the number of reasons you think AG gives you more control. I do both extract and AG, plus partial mash. Let's look at each item you claim AG gives you more control over:

• control of mouthfeel,
  I have control over this with extract too. Mouthfeel is largely determined by carbonation and non-fermentables (body) right?
  
  
• fermentability,
  AG has the edge here, I agree, but you can control this with extract too - if you want high fermentability, use extracts that have higher fermentability or use some corn sugar. If you want lower fermentability, use some dark extract, more specialty grains in steeping, or maltodextrin.
  
  
• freshness,
  Definitely have control over this with extract. Just buy fresh extract from a good supplier.
  
  
• clarity,
  Definitely have control over this with extract. Use finings, proper conditioning time and cold conditioning and you can get great clarity in extract beers too.
  
  
• and much more
  like what?
  

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I'll bite on the first two on that list in particular, and they're related issues, so I'll handle them the same way. Mouthfeel is definitely determined by unfermentables and carbonation, as well as proteins. To get more unfermentable sugar with a mash, all you do is mash higher. This will give you more mouthfeel and less fermentable sugar, producing a more malty, and fuller beer. That is fully controllable as long as you're a proficient brewer.

That is just not the case with extract, though. You said that you can add dark DME to get more unfermentable sugar, but then you end up with a darker beer. And you could add sugar to get the alcohol higher, but the base malt will still only be so fermentable. There's just less control.

Now, freshness with a good supplier is ok, I suppose, but it never seemed quite as good to me. And yeah, I've had clear extract beer, but overall, I've seen much clearer beer with all grain.

I am surely biased in this regard. All of the brewers I know that are producing consistently good beer are all grain brewers. I've had good extract beer, but never anything that rivaled commercial beer. I am a total snob and I know that. I've never said extract was horrible or evil or anything. I just know that if you really want control over your product and you want to be able to make the best beer you can, you should be brewing all grain. If extract somehow produced better beer than all grain, there would be a lot more hype around it.

carnevoodoo said:

No, it really isn't. Everyone knows that while limited, the few good strains of dry yeast are as good as the liquid yeast. That has NOTHING to do with what I'm talking about.

Extract is limiting in many ways, one being the level of fermentability. If I want a super dry IPA, I can mash low to convert more starch. If I want it more malty, I mash higher. That right there makes extract a less controllable product.

Color is another issue. You can only get a beer so pale with extract before you're done.

I won't even start on cost, which in my opinion makes it better...

Can extract make good beer? Sure. But the level of control you can get from all grain is still not possible with extract. You can only dial in a beer so far before you run into big brick walls, and there's a reason every great brewer has an all grain rig around.

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Umm, you're agreeing with me here. Both can make fantastic beer. One can make more styles. Just like Wet vs Dry Yeast.

You're arguing against a strawman.

I too think that good yeast pitching numbers and proper temp control are the most important quality control measures (with good sanitation steps) for acheiving great brews. If you don't have this control with extract brewing, it wont make any difference with all grain.

Its like any other cooking. Some people use canned ingredients, some people process their own. Canned ingredients can be old and taste like **** compared to fresh ones. Other Canned ingredients can be fresh if you buy them from the right place.

I know people argue whole grain saves money over extract just like people state home brew saves money over store bought. Yeah your recurring costs (ingredients, additives, cleaners, sanitizers, grain bags, test strips, bottle caps, fuel, etc.) go down but your fixed costs go up for equipment. It takes many batches of lower ingredients cost to make up for the extra fixed costs. And most people find you seem to keep buying equipment so your fixed costs keep increasing. Some people have to consider the storage space costs, if not in dollars in tradeoffs of what else you can do with that space. And this is without considering the cost of your time which what I get paid per hour means I will never save money for home brewing or the step up to whole grain. Now considering I drink more beer since I started home brewing, I actually spend more on beer now. And for levity I also have to spend more time exercising to work off these additional beer calories I am taking in.

This is home brewing which means it is a hobby. And like so many hobbies you can get very involved and spend a lot. You do this for fun, not to save money, and there is no doubt many people are going to find full grain brewing very satisfying. Many people are going to be very happy just doing extract brewing. Most people are extremely happy to just let someone else do the brewing. Of course my friends are very happy to drink my home brewed beer so I have additional unplanned costs. And these friends don’t show up with store bought 6 packs anymore.

Are you going to like the flavor and aroma of whole grain better, that is personal preference? Can you do more with whole grain as far as flavor and aroma? Yes, but there are hybrid brewing techniques, that don’t have all the equipment costs, that are just as satisfactory for most people’s pallets. There are some people with pallets the level of wine sommelier where whole grain is the only way they will be satisfied. My gut feel is that most people who move to whole grain get their satisfaction from the ability to start with raw ingredients. Heck I have a buddy who took it a step further and has grown his own grain and hops.

At whatever level you are doing this hobby the key is are you having fun!!! If you are you are a winner!

As far as people who put down people not doing it they way they are doing it, your not having fun!