Oak furniture legs - oak dowels- air locks

Ok so I'm a pretty expierenced brewer as far as standard beers are concerned. Now when talkig about sours I'm kinda flying blind but , after a lot of communication with Wyeast and reading themadfermentationists site for awhile now I have decided to make the leap. I'll be making 2 sour beers at once due to the amount of time to make these. I'll be making a Straight lambic as well as a flanders red. I'm going to be using wyeast lambic blend for the lambic (obviously lol) and Rosealare for the FR. The recipe is not really a concern for either but the fermenting schedule and procedure is. I keep on hearing about furniture legs or dowels which make sense as it will allow a small amount of oxygen in I believe to allow aceobactor to grow but stay in check. My question is this what do others use the dowel method with a bung- furniture legs- or nothing at all? Finally where can I get these ? I'm assuming noone is buying a new kitchen tabl and cutting the legs off so there must be a source for them. THanks for any inout and advice !!

I use a solid cork stopper like you would use for an air lock but no hole and cork so it's more oxygen permeable seems to work well for my Flanders thus far. If I had more head space like a 6gallon carboy that would give more room for O2

Raj Apte is the guy who is known for the table leg trick. He found a source for an unfinished table leg. I don't remember where. The easiest and least likely way to crack the neck of your carboy(wood expands when wet) would be to find a white oak dowel that would make a friction fit in a carboy cap.

Here is a start. I don't have any experience with them or know what their shipping costs would be. Check the hardware and craft stores first.
http://www.midwestdowel.com/pages/shop/category&CatID=15&SubcatID=26

RiverRat280 said:

I use a solid cork stopper like you would use for an air lock but no hole and cork so it's more oxygen permeable seems to work well for my Flanders thus far. If I had more head space like a 6gallon carboy that would give more room for O2

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that's another option I never considered.... what do you do for oaking ? chips , chunk etc.? and this may be a dumb question but can you leave oak in for the long haul 1 year plus with a strain like Rosealare ?

jeepinjeepin said:

Raj Apte is the guy who is known for the table leg trick. He found a source for an unfinished table leg. I don't remember where. The easiest and least likely way to crack the neck of your carboy(wood expands when wet) would be to find a white oak dowel that would make a friction fit in a carboy cap.

Here is a start. I don't have any experience with them or know what their shipping costs would be. Check the hardware and craft stores first.
http://www.midwestdowel.com/pages/shop/category&CatID=15&SubcatID=26

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perfect that is a great source !! I will also check out craft shops like A.C.Moore but I guess the key is to make sure the dowel has not been treated in any way. Also if I went with a dowel do I need to toast it ? and how do you do that if it is nesassary ?

Aschecte said:

perfect that is a great source !! I will also check out craft shops like A.C.Moore but I guess the key is to make sure the dowel has not been treated in any way. Also if I went with a dowel do I need to toast it ? and how do you do that if it is nesassary ?

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I would. A quick google pulled this up. From the looks of it I would go 30-60 minutes @ 350-400F and maybe hit one side of it for just a second to char a portion of it.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f127/oak-dowel-stopper-procedure-177814/

I have not seen any need for any steps to allow O2 into the brew. I have split the same batch(s) (several of them) between glass and HDPE fermenters with standard bungs and airlocks on the fermenters, and plastic screw caps with drilled holes (with seals) for airlocks in the HDPE containers.

The HDPE supposedly lets in a load of O2 and the glass lets in none. I have not noticed any difference between the beers in the two containers. I suspect there is sufficient O2 entrained in the beer at the start to meet the needs of the bugs.

Oak is not a traditional ingredient in Lambics. They use old barrels so they don't get the oak flavor. More modern breweries use stainless steel. I always use a few inches of old oak dowel in each batch, and move it from batch to batch. It supposedly provides food for the brett, but also allows me to inoculate new batches.

That's my 2 cents worth.

Calder said:

I have not seen any need for any steps to allow O2 into the brew. I have split the same batch(s) (several of them) between glass and HDPE fermenters with standard bungs and airlocks on the fermenters, and plastic screw caps with drilled holes (with seals) for airlocks in the HDPE containers.

The HDPE supposedly lets in a load of O2 and the glass lets in none. I have not noticed any difference between the beers in the two containers. I suspect there is sufficient O2 entrained in the beer at the start to meet the needs of the bugs.

Oak is not a traditional ingredient in Lambics. They use old barrels so they don't get the oak flavor. More modern breweries use stainless steel. I always use a few inches of old oak dowel in each batch, and move it from batch to batch. It supposedly provides food for the brett, but also allows me to inoculate new batches.

That's my 2 cents worth.

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THanks for all the input the oak is for a Flanders red not the lambic and from what I understand the oak allows a bit of oxygen in to let aceobactor grow.

Buckets are a no no. Too much O2. Glass is a maybe not. Practically zero O2. Better Bottles offer a compromise of the two. Of course, barrels are preferred, but small barrels can deliver too much oak flavor before it gets sour.

History: The indigenous beer of West Flanders, typified by the products of the Rodenbach brewery, established in 1820 in West Flanders but reflective of earlier brewing traditions. The beer is aged for up to two years, often in huge oaken barrels which contain the resident bacteria necessary to sour the beer. It was once common in Belgium and England to blend old beer with young to balance the sourness and acidity found in aged beer. While blending of batches for consistency is now common among larger breweries, this type of blending is a fading art.

jeepinjeepin said:

Buckets are a no no. Too much O2. Glass is a maybe not. Practically zero O2. Better Bottles offer a compromise of the two. Of course, barrels are preferred, but small barrels can deliver too much oak flavor before it gets sour.

History: The indigenous beer of West Flanders, typified by the products of the Rodenbach brewery, established in 1820 in West Flanders but reflective of earlier brewing traditions. The beer is aged for up to two years, often in huge oaken barrels which contain the resident bacteria necessary to sour the beer. It was once common in Belgium and England to blend old beer with young to balance the sourness and acidity found in aged beer. While blending of batches for consistency is now common among larger breweries, this type of blending is a fading art.

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So if I'm understanding correctly for the flanders red I should use a better bottle ? I do have a few of them and just air lock it and because they are somewhat oxygen permeable this will allow enough O2 in to grow the acetobacter over the 18 months ? Also in this scenario should I use glass as a primary using adrennes strain than secondary in the better bottle with roselare for the remaining 17 months ? And as for the lambic I will be using wyeast lambic blend and that's a primary for a year or so and no oak and in glass with a airlock ?

Aschecte said:

So if I'm understanding correctly for the flanders red I should use a better bottle ? I do have a few of them and just air lock it and because they are somewhat oxygen permeable this will allow enough O2 in to grow the acetobacter over the 18 months ? Also in this scenario should I use glass as a primary using adrennes strain than secondary in the better bottle with roselare for the remaining 17 months ? And as for the lambic I will be using wyeast lambic blend and that's a primary for a year or so and no oak and in glass with a airlock ?

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Yup, but a secondary on the Flanders is your call. You can go with Roselare from day one in the better bottle or primary with Ardennes or WLP001/1056 and then go to the secondary with Roselare.

Lambic, glass. Do a half pitch of 001/1056 for a week and then pitch the Lambic blend on top of that.

One last question regarding oak and the Flanders red. I like the idea of using a better bottle as it seems to be the best compromise between my options. Now that brings oak back into the equation if I use a BB and a regular airlock how does that oak flavor get in ? Should I use spirals . A busted up dowel. Cubes ? Toasted not toasted , medium , light white it red oak ? And finally would I put oak in from the start ? Thanks for all the help everyone I really appreciate it ( this bug brewing is really interesting )

Oak flavor is not required, but is not listed as being inappropriate for the style. The oak tanks traditionally used have been used so many times that all of the oak flavor is long gone. It just serves as a place for the bugs to live. If you wanted oak, I would suggest a dowel that fits through the cap of the better bottle. Soak the dowel in warm water a few times to mellow the flavors before toasting it in the oven.

jeepinjeepin said:

Soak the dowel in warm water a few times to mellow the flavors before toasting it in the oven.

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I would have thought you wanted to toast before soaking. If you soak first, it will absorb a lot of the water and you end up poaching the wet wood rather than toasting it.

Calder said:

I would have thought you wanted to toast before soaking. If you soak first, it will absorb a lot of the water and you end up poaching the wet wood rather than toasting it.

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Actually that does sound better. That would be more alike to the treatment a barrel receives.

I understand to add oak flavor as well as allowing a little more oxygen to permeate than the better bottle alone but how do I know the oak dowel has not been treated or has glues in it ? Also do I use the oak from the beginning or allow any Krausen etc to fall back then add the dowel for the full 18 or something months or us there a time frame for oaking ?

I would still use a solid bung so you don't need to keep an eye on your airlock. I've seen too many people let their airlock run dry when its a beer that sits for a year on then it would get way too oxidized. I use oak cubes and sometimes the old cubes I had in one of my red wines. You don't really need them and a Flanders has minimal if any oak flavor, it's more of a location for bugs to live. I've aged in BB and glass both with good results but I never aged in BB >1yr, better to have not enough O2 then too much.

Ok I guess a more direct answer is how long should I put the oak in for assuming I use cubes let's say medium toast French ? I am probably going to use a better bottle as I read the O2 permeability charts from BB not to mention I see that stoppers also breath to an extent more than I realized as well. I'm just confused as to the length if time to oak and ferment- age in general.

RiverRat280 said:

I would still use a solid bung so you don't need to keep an eye on your airlock. I've seen too many people let their airlock run dry when its a beer that sits for a year on then it would get way too oxidized. I use oak cubes and sometimes the old cubes I had in one of my red wines. You don't really need them and a Flanders has minimal if any oak flavor, it's more of a location for bugs to live. I've aged in BB and glass both with good results but I never aged in BB >1yr, better to have not enough O2 then too much.

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I have a 53 gallon bourbon barrel of sour base beer. After I got tired of maintaining the airlock I bought a dry dual action bung. Look at Dalco Duall.

Aschecte said:

Ok I guess a more direct answer is how long should I put the oak in for assuming I use cubes let's say medium toast French ? I am probably going to use a better bottle as I read the O2 permeability charts from BB not to mention I see that stoppers also breath to an extent more than I realized as well. I'm just confused as to the length if time to oak and ferment- age in general.

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I don't take it out, I just leave it in and use them to inoculate the next batch. I always use cubes.

RiverRat280 said:

I don't take it out, I just leave it in and use them to inoculate the next batch. I always use cubes.

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Ok so I should just pitch the roselare blend in to the Flanders red and the oak and leave it be for like a year and a half ?

Aschecte said:

Ok so I should just pitch the roselare blend in to the Flanders red and the oak and leave it be for like a year and a half ?

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I would.

Works for me thanks for all the advice. !!!! If there is anything else anyone could think of to help me out please let me know.

Patience. If you taste it early and it's slimy or downright nasty, it's just not ready yet.

My barrel tastes like bile right now. The bacteria got out of hand. I'm stepping up multiple Brett cultures to get it back in check. It would eventually correct itself but I don't mind giving it a little help.

Yes it may get "sick" at some point and don't worry the Brett cleans it up with time. I let it sit for 8 months or so then let taste tell me when it's ready and depends if I'm blending it or adding fruit.