5 days, no fermentation

Hi everyone, so im in a bit of a bind... last thursday i brewed up a citrus wheat beer, everything went fine, but i was in quite a rush to get to work by the end of my session.

i used a smack pack of wyeast american wheat but it didnt expand (even after 3 hours between when i smacked and when i pitched) when i smacked it, i figured no big deal so i RDWHAHB'ed and pitched 3 hours later and went to work.

later after work i noticed on the pack that it was made in july and it has been almost exactly 6 months until it was used. Still, i RDWHAHB'ed and searched these forums to see what i could do, and saw that regardless that the pack said you didnt have to make a starter, most people still did.

now 5 days later (120 hours) no activity at all... and im really not sure what to do... i smelled it and it smells fine (like when it went in), there is no krausen, no bubbling (i know this isnt an indicator), and no activity whatsoever. is there anyway to revive the yeast? the thermometer on the carboy says its at 11C (52F)

is there anything i should do to possibly revive it or should i pitch new yeast?

i dont really want to pitch anything because i only have some S-04 which i would rather not use, and i was super excited about washing the wheat yeast i used...

thanks,
Steve

I read once that for every month past the manufacture date add 12-24 hours extra for the smack pack to expand. You likely just had a little lag time. Its not optimal but it should do the job. Only way to tell for sure is to check the gravity and see if it has changed.

Chombo said:

so i RDWHAHB'ed and pitched 3 hours later and went to work.

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You shouldnt drink before work

But seriously, what temperature did you pitch at? 52 is pretty low for ale yeast, and 5 days is longer than it should take to see fermentation, even by generous time standards. Try warming the whole thing back up into the 70s, and go grab some more wheat yeast to pitch. If you wanna get away with a cheaper batch, rehydrate your S-04 and pitch that, it'll still be beer.

Yeah - you gotta check it with the hydro. 5 days is too long though. If the gravity has not dropped, get some active yeast in there ASAP.

Have you taken a hydrometer reading? Are you sure it's not done fermenting at this point?

58*f to 74*f is the suggested temp range for this even with an ample amount of healthy yeast.

Pitch new yeast ASAP

52F is waaaay low for ale yeast. I would add 10 degrees F.

thanks for the quick reply, i just checked the gravity and i can confirm that fermentation has not started...

could this be because it is too cold, could the yeast be dormant? before i pitch new yeast are there other options? like could i stick it in front of the fireplace and warm it up? should i aerate it or is that a bad idea? the only yeast i have on hand is some washed S-04 so im not sure if that would be enough to pitch, there isnt a lot in the jar...

i am getting some belgian hefe yeast in the mail in a few days... should i wait and pitch that?

also there isnt any infection, i tried the hydrometer sample and it was good...


EDIT: whoops didnt read all the posts in time, looks like it is too cold. its strange though, i pitched when it was 21C (70F) but i left it in my basement where it dropped to 10C (52F) then 3 days ago on saturday i moved it upstairs where theres an ambient temp of 21C (70F) but the wort stayed at 11C (52F)

so should i just cut my losses, warm it up and pitch the S-04? is there no way in reviving the wheat yeast safely?

i'd warm it up, give the carboy a good shake to get the yeast back in suspension and see if it takes off. i wouldn't pitch new yeast yet.

thats what i would like to do, but im just not really sure of the odds of it waking up...

it sucks because i really dont want to pitch new yeast (i was banking on washing this yeast and reusing a few times), i cant buy wyeast locally, only online, which is a bummer because i pay extra for shipping... but i dont want to get an infection and would feel better pitching in the S-04. and everyone else is saying pitch it asap...

if i were to warm it up how long should i wait to see if there is action, (would the odds be in my favor of getting it going)? and should i aerate? im going to make a starter from my washed yeast for standby

Getting what you already pitched woken up will take about the same amount of time as newly pitched yeast will take to get going, since you need to get it warmed up before you pitch new yeast anyways. I'd give the already pitched yeast overnight to start doing something (after you get the temp up) before repitching. I wouldn't pitch new yeast until I was sure what I already pitched was not viable. If you pitch new yeast (especially dry yeast) and what you already pitched wakes up, you'll be way over the correct pitching rate for the brew.

so is there a chance that its not working because i didnt make a starter? can i still get it to start even though it was old and i didnt use a starter?

Yeast are probably dormant from the temp. Move to warmer environment and swirl your carboy/bucket around to move the yeast layer into suspension.

OK thanks everyone! its up at 18C (64.4F) so far, ill leave it overnight, i have the S-04 in a starter on standby, and hopefully the hefe yeast will arrive in the next few days. i think ill get it up to 70F, leave it for a few days and if nothing happens ill pitch some more. bummer though, live and learn...

Be careful it doesn't get too hot.

And be careful that you don't raise the temp too quickly. You want a nice slow, steady warm-up period. As I understand it, a quick warm-up period can cause off flavors.

Chombo said:

so is there a chance that its not working because i didnt make a starter? can i still get it to start even though it was old and i didnt use a starter?

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MOST DEFINITELY!!!!

Bobby M recently did a test on year old stored yeast here; https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f13/testing-limits-yeast-viability-126707/

And my LHBS cells outdated tubes and packs of yeast dirt cheap 2-3 dollars each and I usually grab a couple tubes of belgian or other interesting yeast when I am there and shove it in my fridge. and I have never had a problem with one of those tubes.

I usually make a starter but I once pitched a year old tube of Belgian High Gravity yeast directly into a 2.5 gallon batch of a Belgian Dark Strong, and after about 4 days it took off beautifully.

Same with jarred yeast.

With any stored, old yeast you just need first to apply the "sniff test" if it smell bad, especially if it smells like week old gorilla poop in a diaper left on the side of the road in the heat of summer.

Then make a starter, and if it takes off you are fine. The purpose of a starter is to reproduce any viable cells in a batch of yeast....that;s how we can grow a starter form the dregs in a bottle of beer incrementally...and that beer may be months old.

Even if you have a few still living cells, you can grow them....That's how we can harvest a huge starter (incrementally) from the dregs in a bottle of some commercial beers. You take those few living cells and grow them into more.

If yeast can be grown from a tiny amount that has been encased in amber for 45 million years, 45 million year old yeast ferments amber ale we really don't need to sweat too much about yeast viability....

we just need to think in terms of making starters. Viability isn't really an issue if you are reproducing a lot of healthy cells. Which is what you are doing when you make a starter.....

I would listen to everyone else and warm it up a bit, then I would swirl it and see if it doesn't wake up a bit.

Really even with "old yeast" if there is a few cells, they will reproduce. Though under pitching my result in stressed yeast. But either way even if you pitch a dry yeast, you really need it warmer.

52 is pretty much flocculation temp, so your viable yeasts are more than likely dormant anyway.

Beauty, i hope this works, i got it up to 70F over the last 12 hours and have been agitating the yeast periodically, hopefully this works, ill update when it starts or in a few days if i need to repitch. Thanks!

unbelievable, i left for work at 4pm and there was no action, and just got home and it is slowly bubbling away 7 hours later!

there is about a gallon of thick troub and orange zest at the bottom and i can see with a flashlight massive bubbles coming up from beneath all the troub, no krousen yet though. i was extremely close to repitching but patience payed off. and im stoked that i can wash my yeast now!

typically my furnace doesnt go on often in the winter even though it can get to -10C outside because my fireplace is constantly running, and i have never had a problem fermenting at colder temps... i guess i was just hoping it wasnt a bum pack of yeast...

Thanks everyone! hopefully my yeasties wont be too stressed

Chombo said:

unbelievable, i left for work at 4pm and there was no action, and just got home and it is slowly bubbling away 7 hours

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It's not unbelievable to ME, or most of us, why do you think we usually say wait? Most new brewers, especially if you've started your learning from Papazian and Palmer, just simply don't give the yeasties the props they deserve. It seams like often new brewers take the "worst case scenarios" in those books, like "Autolysis" "Dead Yeast" "hotside aeration" "infection" and all those other types of "boogeymen" as an inevitability, and not anexception.

And you all hover over your beers like they were weak newborns who can barely function without your constant worry.

Yeast just don't not work anymore, that is an idea that came from the bad old days before homebrewing was legalized in 1978 when yeast came in hard cakes that travelled in hot cargo holds of ships ...And then sat under the lid of blue ribbon malt extract for god knows how long on grocery stores shelves.

But since 1978 yeast science has been ongoing and the yeasts of today, wet OR dry are going to work in 99.9% of the situations we have, if you give them the time to do so.

But every noob who starts an "my yeast is dead thread" just really pertpetuates a fear that has come from way back then, they got it from Papazain and other brew books written Thirty or more years ago, and were told horror stories of those yeasts, and it influenced their writing, which influence nervous noob brewers as well.

And then, most of the time, you new brewers then freak each other out!!!! You see an "infection" or "Not fermenting" thread title, or 10 on a given day and most of you don't even read the story behind it...you just see a dozen yeast is f-d up threads...and then believe my yeast has the potential to be f-d up.

But as the guy who answers those questions on a daily basis and finds out that no hydro reading was taken, nor has it been 72 hours, and THEY (not you) ARE going by airlock bubbling- AND when they do take a hydro reading or pop the bucket lid, they see that there was a krausen....and most of the time they actually post back, to say they were being paranoid, and fermentation DID happen.

But to someone who actually doesn't follow up on those threads, they think that yeast is so damn fragile....when it is the brewer's nerves that are.

In over 400 gallons of brewed beer, I have never needed to re-pitch my yeast because they failed to start (I have had one stuck ferm at the "1.030" curse and had to add more to bring it down, but it DID start.)

I've never had a starter not start or a "dud" packet of dry.

Yeast are really tenacious critters, except in the rarest and most extreme circumstances, they will survive, reproduce and work for you. If they can harvest 4500 year old yeast from a hunk of amber, then even a deflated smack pack, or properly stored outdated tube, will more than likely still have enough viable cells to reproduce into a starter.

I don't know if you know the story of Charlie Papazian's yeast (White Labs "Cry Havoc") or not. He talked about it on basic brewing. The recipes in both Papazian's books, The Complete Joy of Homebrewing and The Homebrewers Companion, were originally developed and brewed with this yeast. Papazian had "Cry Havoc" in his yeast stable since 1983.

He has used it nearly continuously since 83, sometimes pitching multiple batches on top of a cake, sometimes washing or not washing, etc. In a basic brewing podcast iirc last year he talked about how a batch of the yeast after a lot of uses picked up a wild mutation, and he noticed an off flavor in a couple batches.

Now most of us would prolly dump that yeast. Instead he washed it, slanted or jarred it (I can't recall which,)marked it, and cold stored it, and pretty much forgot about it for 10-15 years. He had plenty other slants of the yeast strain, so he left it alone.

Well evidently he came across that container of yeast, and for sh!ts and giggles made a beer with it. Evidently after all those years in storage, the wild or mutated yeast died out leaving behind a few viable cells of the "pure" culture, which he grew back into a pretty hardy strain...which iirc is the culture that White Labs actually used for their cry havoc...because of it's tenacity and survivability.

It really to me, just goes to show once again how really hard it is to f up this beermaking, and that to give the yeast the props they deserve.

I have found that it is usually NOT the yeast that fails, but the brewer's faith....

Revvy,

If not the yeast, then what is causing my Irish Stout not to ferment? I literally am at a loss for why my wort is just sitting there staring at me like I'm a moron. I believe I did everything correctly. I'm using a partial extract kit. Temps were good.

Do you, or anyone, have any thoughts? I should point out that I brewed on Sunday afternoon and it is now Thursday.

Thanks, as always, for any input!

ThirdCity said:

Revvy,

If not the yeast, then what is causing my Irish Stout not to ferment? I literally am at a loss for why my wort is just sitting there staring at me like I'm a moron. I believe I did everything correctly. I'm using a partial extract kit. Temps were good.

Do you, or anyone, have any thoughts? I should point out that I brewed on Sunday afternoon and it is now Thursday.

Thanks, as always, for any input!

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Well, Revvy's free to chime in here. What was the original gravity? What is the gravity now? Why do you think it's not fermenting? Dry yeast or liquid? Did you make a starter?

Shooter said:

Well, Revvy's free to chime in here. What was the original gravity? What is the gravity now? Why do you think it's not fermenting? Dry yeast or liquid? Did you make a starter?

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Yeah, what he said. Need more info.

I don't have the gravity off the top of my head (at work), but I do know that it was consistent with what the kit said it should be. I have not taken another reading yet, my plan was to do that this evening. I used Munton's dry yeast. I rehydrated it before adding it, but did not make a starter. I guess I suspect it is not fermenting because there has not been a single bubble from the airlock (I checked to make sure everything was sealed) and upon closer inspection there is no krausen or anything of the sort in the fermenter.

Thanks again, just trying to find out if you all have any suggestions before the bacteria win this battle. Thanks!

ThirdCity said:

I don't have the gravity off the top of my head (at work), but I do know that it was consistent with what the kit said it should be. I have not taken another reading yet, my plan was to do that this evening. I used Munton's dry yeast. I rehydrated it before adding it, but did not make a starter. I guess I suspect it is not fermenting because there has not been a single bubble from the airlock (I checked to make sure everything was sealed) and upon closer inspection there is no krausen or anything of the sort in the fermenter.

Thanks again, just trying to find out if you all have any suggestions before the bacteria win this battle. Thanks!

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The thing is your karusen could have even come and gone...visual cues are not good. I have a wit beer that I pitched yeast over two weeks ago (Dec. 26th), that STILL has a 2" krausen on it. But on Saturday I took a grav reading and it had reached terminal gravity, 1.010.

Gravity readings are really the only sure fire way to tell.

Take a hydro reading tonight, don't panic yet. Ignore the airlock. I've always had airlock activity with all my beers, but know that a lack of activity could mean a lot of things. I've also had smaller beers ferment out very quickly and, if I hadn't bothered to look the morning after brew day, would have missed the fermentation completely.

Thanks to you both. I'll post an update this evening, complete with gravity readings.

Revvy said:

It's not unbelievable to ME, or most of us, why do

But every noob who starts an "my yeast is dead thread" just really pertpetuates a fear that has come from way back then, they got it from Papazain and other brew books written Thirty or more years ago, and were told horror stories of those yeasts, and it influenced their writing, which influence nervous noob brewers as well.

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its funny that you mention that, im almost finished reading Papazian's the new complete joy of homebrewing which my dad got back in the early 90's.

thanks for the input! honestly i wasnt nervous, or fretting, i have just never been in this situation before and i wasnt really sure if it was the low temps or a had a bad pack of yeast, i definately know better now and your right, i mainly do searches before i ask questions and there are a lot of threads that do perpetuate nervousness. i think atleast for myself, possibly others, that it would take a situation like this to be in to kind of get over the "yeast will do its thing" notion and gain more confidence in the yeast. Again thanks.


and holy smokes, this morning the air lock sounded like a machine gun. constant stream of bubbles

I arrived home tonight and had the hydrometer at the ready. I went into the brewing facility (closet) and found that my airlock is going crazy. Apparently fermentation has really picked up, so I've decided to forego the hydrometer reading this evening at just let this whole scenario play out.

N00b brewing lesson learned: Have faith in the yeast.

Thanks guys!

ThirdCity said:

I arrived home tonight and had the hydrometer at the ready. I went into the brewing facility (closet) and found that my airlock is going crazy. Apparently fermentation has really picked up, so I've decided to forego the hydrometer reading this evening at just let this whole scenario play out.

N00b brewing lesson learned: Have faith in the yeast.

Thanks guys!

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Mmmm, beer!!!

You can explain this till they are blue in the face, but the only way those new brewers will learn is to experience the situation themselves. I, once, was that new brewer....

i think thats exactly it, you really need to experience the feeling of thinking that you have no options to really appreciate that patience really pays off once your brew gets back on track.

Glad it picked up thirdcity