jtp137
Well-Known Member
Wonder how deep the fermentor is. I have a 15 gallon fish tank that i use for belgian open fermentation. I would love to try this recipe in the tank
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Belgian Dark Strong Ale The Pious - Westvleteren 12 style quad - multiple
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Wonder how deep the fermentor is. I have a 15 gallon fish tank that i use for belgian open fermentation. I would love to try this recipe in the tank
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jtp137
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Check this out its three parts
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CSI - CandiSyrup
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I certainly understand their confidentiality.
CSI - CandiSyrup
Well-Known Member
Open fermentation may not be an essential for this style of ale, just less expensive, more traditional, but might be more risky here. Without electro-static and hepa air filtration undesirable wild yeast here in the US would be a gamble.
Over 5-7 days of open primary the natural oxygen uptake can be replicated with O2 diffusion at about 10ppm.
Over 5-7 days of open primary the natural oxygen uptake can be replicated with O2 diffusion at about 10ppm.
Bottoms_Up
Well-Known Member
I think I read somewhere that for open fermentation, the ratio of height to width of the container should be about the same. There are also variations of this ratio. I read that once the height/width ratio got beyond about 1.2:1, the fermenter was prone to producing localized heterogeneous fermentations rather than a single homogeneous fermentation.
Bottoms_Up
Well-Known Member
Unfortunately, there were no links on your message, but I searched for it and found it here:
Thank you - it's certainly well worth watching - I really enjoyed it. It's mostly in English, with a small amount of Belgian, which, surprisingly, I could still understand! I was born 175 miles from Westvleteren (left for Canada when I was five but still remember a little of the language), and they more or less speak the same language. They also visited where they make the Panneport, but I especially enjoyed the visit inside the Westvleteren brewery.
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Bottoms_Up
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Interesting blind tasting test, comparing the three favourites - St. Bernardus Abt 12, Rochefort 10, and Westvleteren. I was impressed that these two were able to detect how different these three quads are in taste and aroma. In both reviews, St. Bernardus came out last. The younger of the tasters also mentioned how well balanced Westvleteren was, but he chose Rochefort 10 specifically because it was not as balanced. The older taster chose the Westvelteren over the others. I agree that Westvleteren is the most balanced and subtle tasting of the three, and that is specifically one of the reasons I would judge it highly. Perhaps age does affect one's choices - when I was younger, I preferred the beers (and wines) that had strong, radical tastes. Now I prefer the more balanced, subtle tastes. I guess that's also why I prefer some of the German pilsners (e.g. Bitburger, Warsteiner) over all other beers, except perhaps some of the Belgian quads.
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FredTheNuke
Well-Known Member
They can't let us see the Monk Jiz!
CSI - CandiSyrup
Well-Known Member
It's interesting to see the discipline. None of the ingredients, brands, percentages, or even mash temps are discussed at St. Sixtus.
Bottoms_Up
Well-Known Member
It's all about backward engineering. You and saq in particular, have done an incredible job at doing just that. Saq for the refinement of his recipe, and you, particularly for your involvement in the refinement of the all-important ingredient - the Candi Syrup. I thank you both for that, as well as the numerous other very helpful tips and suggestions by the other posters. I have now read each message on this forum at least twice, and the first 100 pages of messages three times. I have made copious notes, have most of the ingredients (they were out of D-90) and will be ready to brew this clone in August after my return from a vacation.
jtp137
Well-Known Member
CSI looking at your single malt version it looks like its 14% D-180 and the rest Pils. I usually get 87% efficiency. Should I scale all ingredients to adjust the efficiency or should I keep the 2.5 pounds of D-180 and just scale the pils
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rockdemon
Well-Known Member
Im going to attempt a slightly edited version of this tomorrow(og 1080). I have a 1 month old wyeast smackpack. Do i really need a starter when im only doing a half batch ? i tried to use the mrmalty calc but i cant figure out how it works since i cannot add the FG im aiming for... it doesnt say anything about fg at all?
Ive seen that alot of people seem to think that secondary fermenation isnt necessary, is it necessary in this case? I dont do secondaries because i dont want to mess with it(fear of ruining it with air and bacteria) but ive never done a beer that takes this long before bottling...
Ive seen that alot of people seem to think that secondary fermenation isnt necessary, is it necessary in this case? I dont do secondaries because i dont want to mess with it(fear of ruining it with air and bacteria) but ive never done a beer that takes this long before bottling...
Bottoms_Up
Well-Known Member
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but, based on my understanding, secondaries aren't necessary when you're only leaving the beer on the dead yeast/trub for relatively short periods of time, such as doing lower alcohol ales. In this case, because you are "lagering" (actually just keeping the beer at about 50-55F) for months, you don't want to keep the beer on the dead yeast/trub for that long because it will likely impart unwanted tastes to the profile. Thus you want to rack the beer off the sediment by using a secondary.
FredTheNuke
Well-Known Member
Secondary fermentation AND a properly sized starter are paramount to this brew. Skip either and you will miss the mark.
CSI - CandiSyrup
Well-Known Member
Yes, definitely pro-rate all of the fermentables bill to your system BHE. All recipes are baselined at 75% mash efficiency.
CSI - CandiSyrup
Well-Known Member
Concur. High ABV languishing primaries does tend to lend itself to off flavors and *some* autolysis. Years back we used to use the method of languishing this ale in primary but quickly changed to the BLAM reported racking for a crisper/cleaner ale.
CSI - CandiSyrup
Well-Known Member
I would second this good advice. Would also like to add that the starter (or harvested krausen) needs to be of the highest quality and vigor. We also measure yeast in compacted ml, (4.5 billion per ml), rather than estimating counts by starter size.
CSI - CandiSyrup
Well-Known Member
Yes, you will need 280-300 billion cells for 1.080/5 gal. One smack pack will deliver about 100-120 Billion.
Secondary is more of a slow landing for this clone. Once you reach 1.013 in primary the secondary will consume a point or so.
CSI - CandiSyrup
Well-Known Member
This ale is precise and a constant labor. There is no detail that can be overlooked from grain freshness and yeast vigor to final cellar temp. Once it's right and you taste it, it's all worth it.
CSI - CandiSyrup
Well-Known Member
Almost forgot. This is a pitch rate doc for most gravities, (and Belgian ales).
http://www.candisyrup.com/uploads/6/0/3/5/6035776/pitching_rates_-_rev_1.14.pdf
Despite the simplicity of the grain bill and how easily available the adjuncts are to get, this is a hard beer to brew correctly. I was lucky enough to hit just under the target numbers on my second attempt but the jury is still out on the final product. It's currently aging and has been sitting 3 months.
I paid super careful attention to detail but I can't stress the importance of the yeast quantity, viability, and quality. You definitely want to make at least a 2L starter. I pushed the OG in my last starter up to 1.060. I read somewhere that it helps yeast prepare to ferment HG beers with less stress. No idea how valid the info is but my fermentation went from 1.089 to 1.012 in a total of about three weeks without having to bother with anything.
I paid super careful attention to detail but I can't stress the importance of the yeast quantity, viability, and quality. You definitely want to make at least a 2L starter. I pushed the OG in my last starter up to 1.060. I read somewhere that it helps yeast prepare to ferment HG beers with less stress. No idea how valid the info is but my fermentation went from 1.089 to 1.012 in a total of about three weeks without having to bother with anything.
LakesideBrewing
Well-Known Member
I bottled my batch one month ago and it has been conditioning at 72-76 degrees. I put one in the fridge for a few days so I could test it. I opened and it had low carbonation. Definitely not enough. Anyone else need to wait longer than a month to get proper carbonation?
Thanks,
Mike
Thanks,
Mike
CSI - CandiSyrup
Well-Known Member
We bottle condition at 76-78F for 2 weeks. We set the cases aside in about 72F for 6 weeks after that. The repitch is as close to 15 billion per gallon as we can measure. It will continue to carb slowly for months but the classic pssst doesn't occur until after 2+ months.
CSI - CandiSyrup
Well-Known Member
On the rise to high krausen the Westy clone will tend to get metabolically hot due to the extremes of pitch and abundance of food. We think the ideal is to keep it in the 77-80F bracket (at the height of krausen). Allowing it to get hotter up to about 82F will still work but lower seems best if the pitch is healthy and adequate. Absent a jacketed fermenter you can use a fan on small stainless fermenters to gently control the temp rise. St. Sixtus uses water cooling, (they have the same challenge).
On the opposite end, if the primary drops below 70F too soon for any significant time we've seen Westmalle fall asleep and slowly eek out a bubble or so for many weeks and languish. It still eventually reaches FG but it's painful to watch
and not the ideal ferm schedule.
Having plenty of fermenter headroom for the top-cropping and explosive rise of a healthy pitch is also helpful. In our 17.5 gallon conicals we ferment only 10 gallon batches, (43% head room). Even with this we still get blow-off.
We haven't tried open fermentation due to a lack of a PV, hepa filtered. double door sealed room. Fantastic next step though if I could get the company funding approved to do it
On the opposite end, if the primary drops below 70F too soon for any significant time we've seen Westmalle fall asleep and slowly eek out a bubble or so for many weeks and languish. It still eventually reaches FG but it's painful to watch
and not the ideal ferm schedule.Having plenty of fermenter headroom for the top-cropping and explosive rise of a healthy pitch is also helpful. In our 17.5 gallon conicals we ferment only 10 gallon batches, (43% head room). Even with this we still get blow-off.
We haven't tried open fermentation due to a lack of a PV, hepa filtered. double door sealed room. Fantastic next step though if I could get the company funding approved to do it
Bottoms_Up
Well-Known Member
After having read all the messages on this forum, regarding the single infusion process, there was one issue that was never discussed, and another that was not resolved. I was wondering if anyone could help clarify these issues:
1. Usually, for mashing, a mixture of 1.25 quarts of water per pound of grain is used. In practice, what is a good water to grain mixture to use for this clone?
2. The initial recipe suggests using spage water heated to 168 F. Later saq recommended using a much lower temperature. In practice, what temperature of sparge water seems to work best, and why?
Thank you.
1. Usually, for mashing, a mixture of 1.25 quarts of water per pound of grain is used. In practice, what is a good water to grain mixture to use for this clone?
2. The initial recipe suggests using spage water heated to 168 F. Later saq recommended using a much lower temperature. In practice, what temperature of sparge water seems to work best, and why?
Thank you.
orangehero
Well-Known Member
Brewhouse efficiency and mash efficiency are quite different which could be the mixup. My mash efficiency is around 65-70% but my BH efficiency has been as high as 88% in the past but usually 75-80%.
I'm finding when I mash thinner and for a minimum of 75 min I'm getting better attenuation. I've been doing a lot of 90 min mashes and getting great fermentations lately.
orangehero
Well-Known Member
How is it possible to have a brewhouse efficiency higher than your mash efficiency?
Bottoms_Up
Well-Known Member
There are generally four types of efficiency:
1) Mash Conversion Efficiency;
2) Pre-boil Efficiency;
3) Ending Kettle Efficiency; and
4) Brew House Efficiency.
The last is actually the overall efficiency, considering all of the three efficiencies. If the second and third are significantly higher than the Mash Conversion efficiency, then the overall Brew House efficiency will be higher than the Mash Conversion efficiency.
See the following link for more details:
http://www.brewersfriend.com/brewhouse-efficiency/
orangehero
Well-Known Member
How can pre-boil efficiency and ending kettle efficiency be significantly higher than mash conversion efficiency when mash conversion efficiency should be approaching 100%, assuming nothing went wrong with your mash?
http://www.braukaiser.com/wiki/inde...cy#What_affects_the_conversion_efficiency_.3F
http://www.braukaiser.com/wiki/inde...cy#What_affects_the_conversion_efficiency_.3F
Bottoms_Up
Well-Known Member
Achieving close to 100% mash efficiency in a homebrew situation is unheard-of. Usually mash efficiencies in homebrew set-ups run about 65-80%. There are numerous factors that could affect the mash efficiency. For example, the temperature used, the milling size of the grain, the age/freshness of the grain, the pH, the temperature of the mash, the mash thickness (pounds of water per pound of grain), the type of lautering (batch, fly, etc.), the practice, etc.
Here's an excellent article about understanding efficiency that I think you will find helpful:
http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Understanding_Efficiency
orangehero
Well-Known Member
I suggest you carefully read the article yourself.
Also it's not possible for the brewhouse efficiency to be higher than any of the constitutive efficiencies.
brewhouse efficiency = conversion efficiency * lauter efficiency
jtp137
Well-Known Member
On the rise to high krausen the Westy clone will tend to get metabolically hot due to the extremes of pitch and abundance of food. We think the ideal is to keep it in the 77-80F bracket (at the height of krausen). Allowing it to get hotter up to about 82F will still work but lower seems best if the pitch is healthy and adequate. Absent a jacketed fermenter you can use a fan on small stainless fermenters to gently control the temp rise. St. Sixtus uses water cooling, (they have the same challenge).
On the opposite end, if the primary drops below 70F too soon for any significant time we've seen Westmalle fall asleep and slowly eek out a bubble or so for many weeks and languish. It still eventually reaches FG but it's painful to watch
Having plenty of fermenter headroom for the top-cropping and explosive rise of a healthy pitch is also helpful. In our 17.5 gallon conicals we ferment only 10 gallon batches, (43% head room). Even with this we still get blow-off.
We haven't tried open fermentation due to a lack of a PV, hepa filtered. double door sealed room. Fantastic next step though if I could get the company funding approved to do it
I dont have a sealed room or filters. I have done 5 belgian batches with open fermentation and zero infections. I would try it. There is a great video on the brewing network on open fermentation. They use a fish gutter
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Bottoms_Up
Well-Known Member
If my conversion efficiency was 50%, and my lauter efficiency was the same at 50%. does it make sense that my overall efficiency would only be 0.5 x 0.5 = 25%? Shouldn't it be 50%?
CSI - CandiSyrup
Well-Known Member
That's encouraging! Different areas of the country have variations in wild yeasts. I may try an open fermentation as a simple trial.
jtp137
Well-Known Member
ultravista
Well-Known Member
jtp137
Well-Known Member
Its on their site. They have alot of belgian receipies
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CSI - CandiSyrup
Well-Known Member
As a clarification I've tried to make sure each recipe that we've trialed has a mash efficiency baseline. It should be at the top header just above the fementables bill. I've baselined most at 75% mash efficiency to allow conversion up or down based on various systems. Our Pils report (on Dingeman's) is nearly always max 1.036. If you don't see it let me know. I'm insanely busy but I try to get to edits within a day or so.
CSI - CandiSyrup
Well-Known Member
The latest single malt Westy 12 clone is up now. I tasted one 8 months in the bottle this week and it's closer than the 2 malt version in my opinion. Very subtle and very balanced.
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