I currently have a Russian Imperial Stout in my primary and will be doing a secondary transfer at some point and was interested in trying to use the yeast cake for a new patch. Can someone give some pointers and things to consider? What type of recipe do people recommend with the cake of a Russian Imperial?
Using the yeast cake
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landshark
HMFIC
Same recipe is typically how I roll with yeast cakes. Or something that the flavor characters from the Russian will not impact as greatly. I think I'd personally throw a Pale Ale on it though just to see what happens. That's what brewing is about.
You won't get much (if any detectable) flavors going from one beer to another, so that should not be a concern.
Using the whole cake will produce a decent beer, but it is over-pitching, and many believe (myself included) you will have healthier yeast if you only use a portion of the cake. When I re-use a cake, I only use roughly a quarter of it.
Using less yeast permits the yeast to reproduce, creating fresh yeast to fully ferment the beer. If you over-pitch, you get less reproduction, and a lot of he work then has to be done by the 'old' tired yeast.
NOTE: You can also under-pitch, so it is a matter of getting close to the optimum.
Using the whole cake will produce a decent beer, but it is over-pitching, and many believe (myself included) you will have healthier yeast if you only use a portion of the cake. When I re-use a cake, I only use roughly a quarter of it.
Using less yeast permits the yeast to reproduce, creating fresh yeast to fully ferment the beer. If you over-pitch, you get less reproduction, and a lot of he work then has to be done by the 'old' tired yeast.
NOTE: You can also under-pitch, so it is a matter of getting close to the optimum.
AndMan3030
Well-Known Member
Russian Imperials are also high in alcohol. This may mutate the yeast making it a poor choice to re-use the cake. upper limits on ABV for re-using yeast are generally about 6%. I am no pro, just passing along info I have learned from others.
Typically you don't want to reuse yeast from big beers. Those little buggers work really hard to chew through that much sugar and become stressed once the abv starts to rise. Big beers will leave more trub too with all the extra grist and hops. That's not to say it won't be fine anyway but as a general rule of thumb it's generally better to work from smaller beers up when reusing yeast.
This. Again, just passing along from what I've been told.
When I've repitched, I've always followed this advice. Start with a low ABV session beer (say, a Bitter), then repitch onto a Northern Brown. Then repitch onto an ESB. Then repitch onto an IPA. Then repitch onto a Barleywine. That kind of idea. I've never gone past a second generation myself (timetable of the pipeline just hasn't worked out), but I've always gone something like APA to IPA, and generally with similar hops.
I probably wouldn't try repitching from an Imperial Stout.
Belgian brewers re-pitch from high gravity beers all the time. I've done it from 9% at times with no issues.
Agreed, yeast get more stressed with a bigger beers, and generally you should try and use yeast from lower gravity beers, but you can still make great beer with yeast from higher gravity beers too.
Certainly for a beginner, I would not stop them from re-using yeast from any beer if it will still make decent beer.
The Soft Underbelly
Well-Known Member
I pitched a black ipa onto a safeale 05 cake. Helluva blow off.
freisste
Well-Known Member
Planning in doing this at the end of the month (from an APA to a stout). Since that's my plan, I've done a bit of research over the past two weeks. I have heard essentially what others have said above, but it all sounds like opinion and anecdote. I'm an engineer and I like facts and evidence.
The one thing I have real evidence of is a quick (really!) experiment where someone tried it. Because there is so much yeast, the yeast is at its prime, and there is a ton of fermentables, fermentation takes off extremely fast. What I saw was a time-lapsed video showing the blow off tube getting filled in under two hours.
Since the search function on HBT is no google, I suggest you google "pitching onto a yeast cake". Search through the hits that link to HBT. you should be able to find the video I saw.
So in the end, it is your choice what to do. Make your own decisions. But use a blowoff tube and maybe have a swamp cooler ready, because that fast of a fermentation WILL kick off a bit of heat. Good luck and let us know how it turns out.
The one thing I have real evidence of is a quick (really!) experiment where someone tried it. Because there is so much yeast, the yeast is at its prime, and there is a ton of fermentables, fermentation takes off extremely fast. What I saw was a time-lapsed video showing the blow off tube getting filled in under two hours.
Since the search function on HBT is no google, I suggest you google "pitching onto a yeast cake". Search through the hits that link to HBT. you should be able to find the video I saw.
So in the end, it is your choice what to do. Make your own decisions. But use a blowoff tube and maybe have a swamp cooler ready, because that fast of a fermentation WILL kick off a bit of heat. Good luck and let us know how it turns out.
freisste
Well-Known Member
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/can-i-pitch-yeast-cake-whatever-means-80015/
This is where I found the video of the brew hitting the blow off tube in under two hours. Look for the post by brewing clamper.
This is where I found the video of the brew hitting the blow off tube in under two hours. Look for the post by brewing clamper.
People here tell you what they think is best. They do not have to support it with data. More often than not they don't have it, but generally it is grounded; if not. there will be plenty chiming ion as to why it is not.
If you are an Engineer, you will realize that there are far too many variables in just about everything to fully evaluate everything 'absolutely'. Even DOEs are educated guesses, and compromises to minimize the number of tests. Many decisions in Engineering are 'Engineering Estimates'; if it was known fact or proven, you would not be innovating and breaking new ground.
Read Yeast by Jamil & White, it will tell you about over-pitching, and provide some supportive data ... Thought I have to say, they are limited in the details they go into due to the scope and size of the book.
While pitching on a full cake will get a great start; it is not the best thing to do.
freisste
Well-Known Member
Calder said:
I think I may have been misunderstood...
I wasn't trying to suggest that people were wrong or that they should provide hard data. In fact, for the most part I don't want that. As you mentioned, the complexity of experiments would likely result in incorrect and inconsistent conclusions from confounded data.
Really I was just trying to lead in to a really cool video.
But as for your last comment, what are the issues? Is it just a matter of over pitching? I guess I was looking at my APA as a bad@$$ starter, creating a lot of yeast that could be used again.
zeg
Well-Known Member
A complicating factor for advice like this is that unless your process kills all the yeast, you will get beer. This means that deciding what practices are good ones depends on whether you happen to like the beer you get that way, and whether an improvement is worth the extra effort to obtain it.
What does this mean? It means that even if we had extensive scientific data on every aspect of every conceivable process, we were all intimately familiar with every detail of the data, and we each drew every conclusion correctly, we'd STILL get to argue about whose advice is right and whose is wrong.
On the original topic, I also tend to follow the advice not to repitch on yeast from beers of over 1.060 SG. The logic behind this---that the yeast that survive to the end of that fermentation are strongly selected for alcohol tolerance above all other factors---seems sound to me. Whether 1.060 is a magic threshold or not, I rely on the experience of others. I have no doubt that beer would come out if I repitched yeast from a bigger beer, but I want to preserve most of the characteristics of the original yeast strain. Applying any strong selective pressure compromises this.
It's still not an absolute, though. Like I said above, it's a matter of balancing tradeoffs. I try to plan things out to avoid pushing the envelope of best practices, but I try not to obsess over it. For example, I happened to be reading JZ's Yeast book just before washing yeast from a 1.05ish Vienna lager that was serving as a starter for my Doppelbock. Following the Doppelbock, I was going to use the yeast for a Bock, and then again repitch for a Maibock. That was when I happened to read the advice against repitching from big beers. In this case, I happened to be in a position to change my plans---I rinsed the yeast from the Vienna lager and put some aside to make fresh starters for the Bock and Maibock. However, if I'd read the book a week later after pitching the Doppelbock, I would not have hesitated to say "screw it" and see what happened if I reused that yeast.
What does this mean? It means that even if we had extensive scientific data on every aspect of every conceivable process, we were all intimately familiar with every detail of the data, and we each drew every conclusion correctly, we'd STILL get to argue about whose advice is right and whose is wrong.
On the original topic, I also tend to follow the advice not to repitch on yeast from beers of over 1.060 SG. The logic behind this---that the yeast that survive to the end of that fermentation are strongly selected for alcohol tolerance above all other factors---seems sound to me. Whether 1.060 is a magic threshold or not, I rely on the experience of others. I have no doubt that beer would come out if I repitched yeast from a bigger beer, but I want to preserve most of the characteristics of the original yeast strain. Applying any strong selective pressure compromises this.
It's still not an absolute, though. Like I said above, it's a matter of balancing tradeoffs. I try to plan things out to avoid pushing the envelope of best practices, but I try not to obsess over it. For example, I happened to be reading JZ's Yeast book just before washing yeast from a 1.05ish Vienna lager that was serving as a starter for my Doppelbock. Following the Doppelbock, I was going to use the yeast for a Bock, and then again repitch for a Maibock. That was when I happened to read the advice against repitching from big beers. In this case, I happened to be in a position to change my plans---I rinsed the yeast from the Vienna lager and put some aside to make fresh starters for the Bock and Maibock. However, if I'd read the book a week later after pitching the Doppelbock, I would not have hesitated to say "screw it" and see what happened if I reused that yeast.
freisste
Well-Known Member
Hmmm. I never thought of the fact that I basically used a selective process to determine which yeast do what.
I'm going from a 6.5 ABV pale ale to a 10+ ABV stout. Hopefully I am not too far past the 1.060 gravity bogey (pale ale was 1.067) that it will have TOO big of an effect. The stout will require pretty alcohol tolerant yeast anyway, so maybe it isn't as bad as I thought. I may end up adding a little champagne yeast at the end anyway to ensure I can bottle. Or else keg carb and bottle from that...
Thanks for the info.
I'm going from a 6.5 ABV pale ale to a 10+ ABV stout. Hopefully I am not too far past the 1.060 gravity bogey (pale ale was 1.067) that it will have TOO big of an effect. The stout will require pretty alcohol tolerant yeast anyway, so maybe it isn't as bad as I thought. I may end up adding a little champagne yeast at the end anyway to ensure I can bottle. Or else keg carb and bottle from that...
Thanks for the info.
cluckk
Well-Known Member
I've poured cider onto a porter yeast cake. When I go from dark to pale I use some boiled distilled water to rinse the cake. I try to get as much hop trash and other stuff out as possible.
freisste
Well-Known Member
cluckk said:
Good idea. I pour through a pretty fine strainer to avoid getting most of the hops in the fermenter and I'm going to dry hop in the secondary (which I am only using to free up the primary - already containing the yeast cake - for the stout). Hopefully there is minimal hop residue in there.
At any rate, it's a pretty big stout and I'm adding vanilla and bourbon, so I'm not particularly afraid of trace tastes. It's going to be sitting around for a while to meld the flavors together.
zeg
Well-Known Member
Yeah, I think there's a good chance that a strong stout will mask a lot of the off flavors if they occur, especially with the additions.
If it doesn't, just add bourbon until you don't care any more!
If it doesn't, just add bourbon until you don't care any more!
cluckk
Well-Known Member
Careful with the bourbon. It can be pretty powerful in a beer. I tested a glass of my favorite HB stout one day and with not even a half ounce the bourbon almost took over. Don't get me wrong! It was good bourbon and well appreciated, but it did overpower many of the good qualities of the stout.
