Why all grain?
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All grain is more fun and more challenging- and in the end, more satisfying than extract brewing. By using a malt extract you lose control of how that extract was prepared: what mash composition, temperature, thickness, pH, etc. How you sparge also is highly variable and will affect your end result. I started all grain after a few extract brews and I have never gone back.
william_shakes_beer
Well-Known Member
Not to cut against the grain (NPI) but i think the whole discussion of AG VS extract is simply silly. I have done batches that were all extract , but most also had some specialty grains. I plan on doing a PM BIAB this weekend. Am I going to have some extract on hand? you betcha. I cannot envision a time when i would not use DME to ferment my starter. If I miss my OG a little, you bet I'm gonna toss in some DME to compensate. If I do a BIAB PM some will say I'm not a "true" brewer because I didn't get 100% or my fermentables from grains. There are also some out there that will say the same if I didn't malt my own grains. Or grow my grains. I brew because I like the beer it produces. If you like what I brew I'm glad. If you don't, it's more for me.
CidahMastah
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+1
ugh, feel sorry for those folks. Would like to say this regarding that though. A solid brewer, can make better beer with AG than with extract (IMO). Especially when you consider the styles that are not well suited for extract brewing - so AG gives your depth and breadth. Just as a Chef should be able to knock the socks off of lasagna made by stouffers given the right ingredients (if he can't he isn't much of a chef).
This is where i am coming from... If I didn't think I make awesome beer, better than most, way better than what I buy commercially, I wouldn't brew at home.
Extract can make good beer, but I can taste extract in many of the beers that it is brewed with. I personally think AG produces a better product, when in the right hands.
To answer the OP question - my top 4 for AG brewing would be:
1. Better beer (IMO)
2. The brewing projects to get your AG set up are almost as fun as brewing itself.
3. There is a beauty to the process. Taking grain, grinding, mashing, boiling and fermenting; ultimately turning those simple ingredients into some of the best beer you have ever tasted.
4. superiority complex is almost instantaneous
LandoLincoln
Well-Known Member
That's nice. When I brew I usually brew with one or more people. When the mash gets going, that's when we break out the first round of beers. Brew days are a lot more than just making beer for us. It's about socializing and trying new beers that we haven't tried before. Your "time = money" thing doesn't hold weight for me.
udt89
Well-Known Member
You can disagree with the time=money thing all you want, its basic economics.
Hobby or not its still a factor. And no you don't need to be working a job to incur the cost.
Trust me, im brewing all grain because I like the extra time involved. Just saying you can't say a batch is $40 cheaper just based on ingredient costs, it's an false statement.
Hobby or not its still a factor. And no you don't need to be working a job to incur the cost.
Trust me, im brewing all grain because I like the extra time involved. Just saying you can't say a batch is $40 cheaper just based on ingredient costs, it's an false statement.
Why would anyone want to finish a round of golf in 4 hours vs 5. To me, that implies you really don't want to be out there playing. I'm always bummed when I'm done, because me time is over. Back to the stresses if life
I don't think anybody on here is bashing extract brewers. They are just stating why they choose to follow the AG path. Some of the best homebrew I have tried had been partial mash. We are just trying to answer the OP's original question. I do AG because I like the challenge of doing the whole process. Brewing is my time to decompress and do what I enjoy
I don't think anybody on here is bashing extract brewers. They are just stating why they choose to follow the AG path. Some of the best homebrew I have tried had been partial mash. We are just trying to answer the OP's original question. I do AG because I like the challenge of doing the whole process. Brewing is my time to decompress and do what I enjoy
udt89
Well-Known Member
flabyboy said:
That's why my buddies and I usually go late im the day then swing around and replay 4-5 holes. Lol
udt89
Well-Known Member
flabyboy said:
That's fine. But if you're going to start putting costs per brew/gallon etc out there you can't ignore time spent.
Its like a mechanic telling you hell repair your car for a flat rate and not charge labor by the hour.
Im arguing this based on the statements of cost per brew. Which shouldn't even be a factor in a hobby. A hobby costs what it costs.
udt89 said:
Yes, but the mechanic is working at his professional job. He's not charging you for a hobby. I suppose if we were professional brewers on the job I would agree with you. I understand where you are coming from. I just don't agree
udt89
Well-Known Member
If its a hobby why is cost per brew a factor?
Mechanic is a bad example. And saying all grain saves you money is false.
Mechanic is a bad example. And saying all grain saves you money is false.
Time = Time
Money = Money
Money is not some interchangeable currency with time, twenty million dollars isn't going to buy you an extra twenty years.
So "AG costs less money, but takes more time", is I guess a more accurate way to state facts.
Money = Money
Money is not some interchangeable currency with time, twenty million dollars isn't going to buy you an extra twenty years.
So "AG costs less money, but takes more time", is I guess a more accurate way to state facts.
udt89
Well-Known Member
BigRob said:
That's your belief. But putting a cost on something, you can't do that.
If I get a great deal on a stamp (I'm a collector), it's bragging points. Collect coins and you get a 1911 Queen Mary pence for $5 from a garage sale, you're bragging. Getting a good deal is part of the hobby.
Sour grapes. All grain will absolutely save you money. Anyone who has been brewing for a while will tell you it's true.
Time only equals money if someone is willing to pay you for that time. It's silly, in my opinion, to say that one should include time in any cost of a hobby...unless, perhaps, you have to take time off of work to pursue the hobby. EDIT: We included costs of materials because we'd actually have to do some kind of job to earn that money.
I'm just saying, if I walk into the LHBS with a $50 bill, and I want to brew the same 1.050 beer recipe, one extract based, one grain based. I guarantee I'm walking out with more cash in my pocket from the AG recipe.
Reading thru the posts from the anti-AG extract brewers is hilarious! As I referenced in my first post in this thread, I've got nothing against extract brewers. My belief is that this is a hobby, and people can choose to go as shallow or as deep into the hobby as they choose, it's all a matter of personal preference. I've definitely seen AG brewers thumb their noses at extract brewers, and I don't agree with it. However, the anti-AG posts just come off as silly, and it looks to me like the anti-AG crowd just have a bunch of sour grapes.
BTW, I don't care what anyone says, time spent on a hobby has zero economic impact. This is a hobby, not a business, and time spent on this is a labor of love. I don't want to spend less time doing this, I want to spend *more* time doing this. This is my release valve, and that provides more non-economic value than anything you anti-AG trolls can try to counter with.
BTW, I don't care what anyone says, time spent on a hobby has zero economic impact. This is a hobby, not a business, and time spent on this is a labor of love. I don't want to spend less time doing this, I want to spend *more* time doing this. This is my release valve, and that provides more non-economic value than anything you anti-AG trolls can try to counter with.
Grinder12000
Well-Known Member
Not reading through the last few pages but lets make it clear, I'm not anti All grain at all. If anything was aimed at me. I was anti how some all grain brewers look down on mini mash brewers. Thats all.
I was anti how some all grain brewers look down on mini mash brewers. Thats all.
JohnTheBrewist
Well-Known Member
I brew AG, and have since about my second batch some 22 years ago. I couldn't tell you if AG makes better beer than extract, I don't remember, and it has never been important to me.
Rather, I enjoy the whole brewing process; from recipe creation, to brew day, to kegging/bottling day, and tasting day. I get excited about picking and smelling grains and imagining how my beer will taste. Milling my grain and admiring the crush brings me joy. I love that smell when doughing in for my mash. It's fun to compare my efficiency and know if I hit my target OG. I enjoy tinkering with my equipment and trying to find some ingenious new way to do things.
For me, Its not about saving money, because I could never cost out what I've spent on equipment over the years. I've never really considered going back to brewing extract, because, FOR ME, I'd feel like I was missing out on some part of the experience.
Rather, I enjoy the whole brewing process; from recipe creation, to brew day, to kegging/bottling day, and tasting day. I get excited about picking and smelling grains and imagining how my beer will taste. Milling my grain and admiring the crush brings me joy. I love that smell when doughing in for my mash. It's fun to compare my efficiency and know if I hit my target OG. I enjoy tinkering with my equipment and trying to find some ingenious new way to do things.
For me, Its not about saving money, because I could never cost out what I've spent on equipment over the years. I've never really considered going back to brewing extract, because, FOR ME, I'd feel like I was missing out on some part of the experience.
Time is money is ridiculous, but if you read Ben Franklin's 13 virtues, it makes sense where it came from. It's an idiom, not a law of economics.
Hobbies, like collecting, are not based on intrinsic value. The value is what the individual is willing to pay for a desired outcome. Extract brewers pay someone else to make what AG brewers do themselves. This is a different way to allocate resources. If the result of AG is perceived as better to the brewer, it is value added in the same way a vintage oem car part is to a collector.
AG costs less and has more recipe control as well as more variables. That doesn't make it better to the home brewer, but are valid reasons to make the switch if they interest the brewer. most people here have had and/or made good and bad examples of both.
Hobbies, like collecting, are not based on intrinsic value. The value is what the individual is willing to pay for a desired outcome. Extract brewers pay someone else to make what AG brewers do themselves. This is a different way to allocate resources. If the result of AG is perceived as better to the brewer, it is value added in the same way a vintage oem car part is to a collector.
AG costs less and has more recipe control as well as more variables. That doesn't make it better to the home brewer, but are valid reasons to make the switch if they interest the brewer. most people here have had and/or made good and bad examples of both.
IMO the prejudice began at your post #35. If I'm wrong, please correct me. I though your rant was unsupported by the posts to that point.
On topic, I agree with John above. I made a few extract batches several years ago. They were terrible, but I'm sure that was my process. I'm not tempted to go back, all grain is too much fun.
every person who brews will give you a different reason why they moved to AG, the reasons I did were pretty simple.
#1 - more control of what was in my wort ( you cannot get this from lme or dme as you get what the malster decides goes in to it )
#2 - More involvement
#3 - control over the amount of dextrins to control the body of the finished beer
#4 - all that equiptment looks cool
#5- excluding the equiptment the cost of a batch tends to be less
#6- I never had the same feeling of accomplishment with extract ( that's a personal feeling not a specific knock at anyones preference )
#7- I donate spent grains to local farms for feed or i compost them
#8- I like the science behind AG calculations
#9- I like the finished product flavor etc better than when I was doing extract
#10- overall feeling of being part of a tradition that far predates my self
That's about it.
For me its a matter of quality and control over process. Now it is pretty amazing your LHBS can make custom extract, and the stuff may be good fresh, but it will still be the poor cousin of all-grain quality wise. I was an extract brewer for years, and then I had a couple of all-grain home brews and I was blown away by the quality difference.
In terms of money, all-grain costs me about 10-15 dollars per 5 gallon batch, and extract was costing about 30. I used a very simple, basic AG system for about a year and it was just fine, right on the stove top.
However, at some point, ease-of-use and streamlining may become a goal, and then the sky is the limit for brewing options to spend money on.
Again though - taste a buddy's all grain beer: that will be very convincing!
In terms of money, all-grain costs me about 10-15 dollars per 5 gallon batch, and extract was costing about 30. I used a very simple, basic AG system for about a year and it was just fine, right on the stove top.
However, at some point, ease-of-use and streamlining may become a goal, and then the sky is the limit for brewing options to spend money on.
Again though - taste a buddy's all grain beer: that will be very convincing!
Ravenshead
Well-Known Member
The Brew Shop looks pretty cool but the website needs a lot of work. You can't tell that they do custom DME or much else for that matter. I assume it's still in work.
If it's all it looks to be, I'm glad we don't have one here. I'd never go home.
Oops, missed the extra two pages of posts on the DME. Still looks like a great place though.
If it's all it looks to be, I'm glad we don't have one here. I'd never go home.
Oops, missed the extra two pages of posts on the DME. Still looks like a great place though.
I didn't read the entire thread, so I don't know if this was covered, but to the original poster: Why don't you try out partial mash brewing?
All of my beers are 3-4 lbs of base grain, some specialty grains depending on what style I am brewing, and then 4-6 lbs of light DME. I only use light/golden/extra light DME because it's made from just base malt and carapils. This gives you the most control you can have over extract partial mashing. Since I started doing this type of brewing my beers are excellent, and even though I'd like to go all grain, I don't feel especially anxious to because I am getting great, great results. Much better than when I did NOT mash any base grain.
All of my beers are 3-4 lbs of base grain, some specialty grains depending on what style I am brewing, and then 4-6 lbs of light DME. I only use light/golden/extra light DME because it's made from just base malt and carapils. This gives you the most control you can have over extract partial mashing. Since I started doing this type of brewing my beers are excellent, and even though I'd like to go all grain, I don't feel especially anxious to because I am getting great, great results. Much better than when I did NOT mash any base grain.
udt89
Well-Known Member
We man hugged. All good
No, that's not it at all. What it comes down to is the limitations of extract - so yes it's about control. For one, extract has a limited number of options and they are all pre-mixed. You can't take an amber LME/DME and say, "I want to lower the amount of munich malt"... or heck increase it either as it's a malt that requires mashing. You also can't control the body as mentioned with different mash temps. You also can't say, "I want Marris Otter in here", or "I want Belgian Pilsner instead of Briess" etc.
I was an extract brewer for almost a year before I switched over. I made some damn superb beers, but I did eventually find no matter how much I changed up the DME percentages or the hop varieties a lot of similar taste carried over. That and it started getting less interesting due to the limitations. Just as you come across insinuating AG brewers will "be upset" by your comments you come across as an extract brewer that is scared to try something grander.
Anyhow, that aside, the OP is most certainly mistaken about his LHBS, no way in hell do they "make" their own extract. Doing so requires a large factory with complex equipment, and an LHBS would never profit from making these custom extracts in small one off batches.
Rev.
"Why all grain?"
Because the prices of extract are through the roof IMO! With group grain buys and buying hops by the pound, and repitching yeast...all grain brewing can yield a better product and can be very inexpensive. With BIAB it is not that much more difficult than brewing extract.
Because the prices of extract are through the roof IMO! With group grain buys and buying hops by the pound, and repitching yeast...all grain brewing can yield a better product and can be very inexpensive. With BIAB it is not that much more difficult than brewing extract.
maffewl
Well-Known Member
Are we talking about what I think we are talking about?
Might be economics if you didn't blow two points:
1. Where did you come up with 4 hours more??? It really only takes me 1.5-2 hours max more time to do AG. With extract the process was faster since I didn't have to mash but I had more items to clean all that sticky powder off of. I used Rubbermaid pitchers to pour it, a whisk to stir it, and I used a grain bag to steep some grains for a more complex taste. All these things I don't use in AG and take more time to clean, and I haven't even mentioned the other items I need to clean with extract. I also used to have to stop the boil and take 15 minutes or more to whisk in all the extract - you can't simply dump it all in at once. Then after I had to get it back up to a boil which took some time as well.
2. As someone else already mentioned, unless you are taking away from your work hours you really can't calculate time=money. If you do extract and end 1.5-2 hours early and then simply plop on the couch and watch TV how can you really argue that point? It's ridiculous.
Rev.
MikeSteele
Well-Known Member
I just went all-grain two weeks ago using the BIAB method. It's fantastic.
I'm probably repeating what many others here have already said, but brewing all-grain brings you closer to actually making your own beer. With all-grain, the control you have forces you to think about the brewing process in a more fundamental way that allows your appreciate and knowledge to deepen. After going all-grain I've become more excited when thinking about brewing.
Plus you will be way more proud of your product. Knowing that you're doing what the professionals do is pretty awesome.
I'm probably repeating what many others here have already said, but brewing all-grain brings you closer to actually making your own beer. With all-grain, the control you have forces you to think about the brewing process in a more fundamental way that allows your appreciate and knowledge to deepen. After going all-grain I've become more excited when thinking about brewing.
Plus you will be way more proud of your product. Knowing that you're doing what the professionals do is pretty awesome.
tennesseean_87
Well-Known Member
Time=money. I spend an extra hour and save $20 on a batch, therefore brewing just became a job paying me $20/hr to have fun. The economic view cuts both ways.
whitehause
Well-Known Member
Wow.....12 pages of posts in one day?
My take.......It's the difference between baking a Betty Crocker boxed cake and using the pre-made tub of frosting, or baking from scratch and making the frosting yourself. Sure,,,you made it either way, but there is a degree of satisfaction buy doing the whole thing from scratch that you just can't get any other way!
My take.......It's the difference between baking a Betty Crocker boxed cake and using the pre-made tub of frosting, or baking from scratch and making the frosting yourself. Sure,,,you made it either way, but there is a degree of satisfaction buy doing the whole thing from scratch that you just can't get any other way!
Reuben1012
Well-Known Member
I like AG because i am into learning the great brewing traditions that go back thousands of years, they did not have malt extract in ancient Egypt....
That being said if i am short on time or just want to brew in my kitchen I will do extract. It makes great beer too.
That being said if i am short on time or just want to brew in my kitchen I will do extract. It makes great beer too.
Wow !!! In a lot if these posts it seems their is more bitc***! going on than just answering the op's question. I'll sum it up real easy like we are all brewers, we each have our personal reason for the medium we choose wheter it be all grain or extract. Both make great beer period. If you Like the final product that's all that matters so don't knock the other guys prefered method it probably will insult them. There's an old saying a house divided is a house....... You know the rest just keep in mind we are a community of brewers not a community of one or the other extract or all grain. On that note cheers !!!
zeg
Well-Known Member
Come on guys, AG is just the tip of the iceberg if you're going for control. That's why I bought 30 acres of farmland and a malt house so I can grow my own barley and hops and malt my own grains. Of course, I didn't do something silly like buy all that land in one place. No, I bought it in 1-2 acre parcels distributed around the world. This way I can control every variable....
What's my point? There's a spectrum of control. All grain doesn't really give you complete control, it just opens more variables. Whether it's worth the extra expense (up front for equipment, on-going for time if you consider a longer brew to be a cost) is going to vary from brewer to brewer. There's no automatic reason why an experienced brewer is going to want to switch to AG. If they're able to obtain the results they want from extracts and they can afford to pay someone else to do the extracting, they'd be silly to add complexity.
Heck, not everyone enjoys DIY to the degree you see on here. If you can buy the beer you want, there's no reason to even bother with any of this unless you enjoy the activity itself.
And I can't resist commenting on the time=money business. This is true in some senses, but remember that money is not an end in itself. It is a proxy for accounting for scarce resources. The money is worthless---the value comes from what you exchange it for.
Time is also peculiar in that, while it's scarce, it's also ephemeral. You cannot store it for later use. This changes the economics considerably. If you insist on counting it in dollars, the only way to do this is in terms of opportunity costs. That is, the dollar value you assign is relative, not absolute. You can only compare the "costs" against alternative uses of that time.
What's my point? There's a spectrum of control. All grain doesn't really give you complete control, it just opens more variables. Whether it's worth the extra expense (up front for equipment, on-going for time if you consider a longer brew to be a cost) is going to vary from brewer to brewer. There's no automatic reason why an experienced brewer is going to want to switch to AG. If they're able to obtain the results they want from extracts and they can afford to pay someone else to do the extracting, they'd be silly to add complexity.
Heck, not everyone enjoys DIY to the degree you see on here. If you can buy the beer you want, there's no reason to even bother with any of this unless you enjoy the activity itself.
And I can't resist commenting on the time=money business. This is true in some senses, but remember that money is not an end in itself. It is a proxy for accounting for scarce resources. The money is worthless---the value comes from what you exchange it for.
Time is also peculiar in that, while it's scarce, it's also ephemeral. You cannot store it for later use. This changes the economics considerably. If you insist on counting it in dollars, the only way to do this is in terms of opportunity costs. That is, the dollar value you assign is relative, not absolute. You can only compare the "costs" against alternative uses of that time.
No...NOW we've man hugged:
I nap during the mash. And you cannot put a price an a good nap.
Plus, I get a little tingle when I open this:
And run it through this:
