Newbie soda/kegging questions - making soda at a restaurant

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AfternoonReview

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Hey all - I've been brewing beer for 7 months, but I'd like to try to start making sodas for my wife to serve at her market. My questions mostly have to do with the carbonation/serving of the soda.

I think I'd like to keg rather than bottle, so that I don't have to deal with the danger of serving patrons possible gushers/bombs. I also don't want to deal with yeast because I'm not sure of the legal complications that may arise if I try to sell soda that technically has a little bit of alcohol in it. So I think kegging is definitely the way to go.

That being said, can anybody give me an outline of the equip I'll need to keg soda? Anybody have tips that pertain to kegging soda specifically? I've heard that you need longer hose lines, etc... I've never kegged anything, so don't be afraid to explain it as you would to a total newb.

Any insight would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!
 
Last few relevant threads:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f95/kegging-root-beer-111611/
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f95/sw...r-can-i-make-normal-brewing-equipment-254254/
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f95/bi...-small-office-should-i-build-one-rent-255287/
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f95/carbonator-co2-chiller-etc-home-seltzer-tap-250351/
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f95/two-kegs-im-sold-using-syrups-variety-rocks-198326/

See also: Bottling/Kegging regarding cure for short hose troubles as an option.
Otherwise PSI calc resistance for 3/16 bev line is about 2 psi per foot, so for 30 psi, you'd need around 15 feet of line.

So, you'd need this: http://stores.kegconnection.com/Detail.bok?no=511 and either longer line instead of a 5foot line, or maybe the mixer connection shown in the bottling/kegging sticky. Maybe a larger tank too if you're looking at lots/multiples of kegs.

Tips:
Don't reuse kegs for beer, or mix soda flavors unless you clean real well (soda flavors, esp rootbeer and cola really cling, unless you want rootbeer flavored beer. Or having your hibiscus soda tasting like cola.)

You can consider kegging soda water and using syrups to mix (like an old fashioned soda fountain) Or mix syrup and water into a keg first.

Personally I like using soda water and making syrups to make the sodas. This way, you can have multiple soda water kegs, and a large variety of homemade and storebought flavors which can vary in strength. Some people do want less syrup than others, some like theirs really syrupy. You can also serve just the unflavored soda water and maybe some unsweetened flavor extracts. Or use chocolate syrup, soda water and ice cream for a chocolate soda, or use chocolate syrup, milk and soda water for an egg cream soda.
 
Thanks for the input Pumbaa and Kevin.

I like the idea of making the syrups and just adding the carbonated water. Maybe we could even make an old-fashioned set up at the shop! It would definitely allow for more soda choices...

I assume I can find some syrup recipes here on the threads?

Those are great links, Kevin - thanks!
 
I'm a fan of the syrup plus carbonated water method as well. Lots of flavors from one keg, and you don't have to worry about cleaning out strong smells from your seals.
 
Yeah. I didn't win it unfortunately. EFaden emailed the guy and was working on a few scaled up recipes. Best thing about soda water though, is that you really can do anything with it. I got some hibiscus from an herb store and made a simple syrup with them and a sprtiz of lemon for the citric acid and have been making sodas with those.
 
So, as of now, I think I'm going to just keg and carbonate water so that customers can mix in different syrups. I'll probably still need a 15ft line, correct? From what I understand it will come out too quickly if the lines are short.

Since I've never kegged anything, I was thinking I could just start out with this kit, or something similar because this one only comes w/ a 3 ft beer line:
http://www.rebelbrewer.com/shoppingcart/products/Homebrew-Kegging-Kit-%28No-Keg%29.html


P.S. I checked out those plastic inserts that you can stick in the dip tube, but I'd like to avoid them since it appears that they have not been approved as food safe.

Thanks
 
Yeah, if you're going for full food source then don't. But check the other shopping, because the one you posted does not include a keg at all. Which is surprisingly expensive to me.

http://stores.kegconnection.com/Cart.bok?searchpath=110288444 comes with a keg and is about the same price, but only a 2.5 pound tank that you'd need to upgrade. Probably a 5 pound at least, if not more. There should be some info about how many kegs a 5 pound tank would carbonate and push. (Maybe even a 5 or 20 pound tank for carbonating beforehand and a 2.5 pound tank to do the pushing, since it's easier to carry.)

Most places will let you upgrade the tank and ask for a different hose length.
 
So I can carbonate with one CO2 tank, disconnect it when the carbonation process is finished, then connect a different CO2 tank to serve with? That would be handy.

I'll definitely do some shopping around.

Thanks again
 
So I can carbonate with one CO2 tank, disconnect it when the carbonation process is finished, then connect a different CO2 tank to serve with? That would be handy.

I'll definitely do some shopping around.

Thanks again

Yes. And FWIW you'll likely need lines longer than 15'. The resistance of beverage lines varies a bit between manufacturers and most of the 3/16" line has less than the often quoted 2psi/ft. From my experience and what I've read others on here using, I'd say 20'-30' is probably closer. The easy way to balance a system is to buy longer lines than you need and then cut small lengths until you get a good pour.
 
Hi Guys

Thanks for u all, I have learned a lot. I am planning to run a mobile soda cart. My question is, do I need to keep the carbonated water in the refrigerator all time?

Thanks
 
You'll probably want to keep it cold all the time as that will impact how well it absorbs/holds CO2.

I got that homemade soda book and it has lots of great ideas. I'm switching from concentrates to making my own syrups and I am surprised at how easy it is to do and how well they turn out.

As for serving and line length... I keep my lengths the same as my beer lines (around ten feet) and use bayonets in the kegs themselves (2 per keg) to slow the flow down. I set it and forget it at 30 PSI and it is generally ready in about a week.

I think an old school soda fountain with a variety of homemade syrups would be a great attraction. The ability to mix and match flavors combined with the charm of an actual soda bar would be a big hit I think. It is also much easier to maintain since you don't have to deal with flavors being imparted to the O rings and tubing or cleaning up gunked up taps/lines or any of that. Less taps that have to be maintained too which will make things a lot easier.
 
I finally got a couple of kegs. One for beer and one for water. The water's been carbing at 30 PSI for a few days now. I only have a 4 ft picnic tap though, so I'll have to go through the trouble of lowering the keg pressure when I serve for now. Can't wait to make some syrups and give it a shot. Thanks for all the input everyone.
 
Lowering your pressure to serve only works if you purge the headspace first, and even then I've had mixed results. Plus you blast through a lot of CO2 that way.

Consider this, keg pressurized to 30psi and left to carbonate will have a headspace of 30 psi. If you purge and then serve at 12psi, CO2 is going to come out of solution and fill that headspace until it's at equilibrium somewhere between 12 and 30psi, which will be dependent on the amount of headspace it has to pressurize.

I'm not saying it can't be done, it's just the less effective way of doing things.
 
I'm gathering together the equipment to just this and had a question... I'm wanting to bottle my soda in glass after carbonating it, if I carbonated water in a keg and added syrup to the bottles, dispensed the soda water in and capped them would this hold the carbonation sufficiently? Or is there a better method?
 
I also wanted to run a homemade soda business. I started making my fresh fruits juice soda with spices from the siphon, It turn out very good. I wanted to sales my soda at farmer's market but when I try in 5 gal I have no luck. I have problem with my pineapple soda. At 45 psi in the fridge for 2 weeks, it still not fizz enough. It turn out with soft fizz. There's a lot of bubbles and very foamy. I've 30' of 3/16. I'd end up dumped it out. I've orange with mint ready to go in the keg but so worry if I would face the same problem. Please need lots of advices.
 
So I was able to fill some Pellegrino bottles the other day @ 30psi w/ my 5ft line and picnic tap. The water came out of the tap pretty fast, but it wasn't uncontrollable. I was even able to fill some beer mugs with water without spilling. So now here's my new question:

Is there any benefit to having a longer line other than a slower, more gentle pour? If not, then I think I can get away with just this 5ft line.

Am I perhaps losing some carbonation because of the vigor of the pour? (since the pour is very fast, it sloshes up a lot, so I figure that's letting c02 escape, right? or not?) Will a longer line keep the final product more fizzy?

Thanks again everyone!
 
So I was able to fill some Pellegrino bottles the other day @ 30psi w/ my 5ft line and picnic tap. The water came out of the tap pretty fast, but it wasn't incontrollable. I was even able to fill some beer mugs with water without spilling. So now here's my new question:

Is there any benefit to having a longer line other than a slower, more gentle pour? If not, then I think I can get away with just this 5ft line.

Am I perhaps losing some carbonation because of the vigor of the pour? (since the pour is very fast, it sloshes up a lot, so I figure that's letting c02 escape, right? or not?) Will a longer line keep the final product more fizzy?

Thanks again everyone!

The main reason to have the longer line is to avoid foaming, and letting the co2 out, and having flat soda in the end.

You could try it, and open a soda in two weeks, to see if it held carbonation.
 
Ideally you would use a compensating valve like this. You can pressure your keg to 40psi, and this will dial down the pressure at the valve...giving you a nicely carbonated drink.... One way to avoid flat pop...is having it very cold....as it enters the glass. Less than 40 degrees is ideal. Utilizing a cold plate in an Ice well would be ideal.

bargun.jpg
 
Jaybrinks - it looks like there is a tap built into that compensating valve. I assume you can serve straight from it?
 
Yes you can...it is the same as a Pre-mix fountain machine valve...just hand held. The draw back...is you can only pour one flavor out of it if you pre-mix your soda flavors in a tank. It would work well for pouring soda water then manually adding syrup in the glass.

If you want to pour multiple pre-mixed flavors....a premix bargun setup would be a better option. http://www.gulficesystems.com/p12bargun.html

This link is just for the pictures....I don't know if it's the best place to buy one or not.
 
Mr Adam Duke - to answer your question from a while ago -that is what I plan on doing. Look up "we no need no stinkin beer gun" on the forum and you'll see a nice write up on how to dispense from a keg. I once poured store-bought carbonated water onto some syrup I'd made and it foamed up like crazy, so I'm not sure how this will work out. I'm going to try though.

Brewnanza - to answer your question from a while ago - I think you're supposed to keg water at about 30psi to carbonate it. 45 PSI might be too much. Try lowering the pressure and see what happens.
 
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