Where did you get your HERMS coil?

I'm in the market for a HERMS coil. I want to 1/2" OD tubing. I havent settles on copper or SS. So if you have a HERMS coil, where did you get it?

Im trying to find the best price out there!

Thanks for the help!

Stainlessbrewing.com is the only option IMO if your doing Stainless.

The price of DIY is not worth it considering the risks for proper bends because stainless tubing benders arent cheap. For only a few dollars more you get one perfectly made.

They are currently out of stock until 8/1 though for 1/2" coils so order now if you want it.

Stainless is better i think because over time the copper will oxidize and start to become ugly, i know it shouldnt really affect the beer at all but the fact of the matter is some of that copper oxide is going to make it into your water in the HERMS pot. I'd rather just leave the stainless one in than have to deal with stupid compression fittings to clean a copper one.

i know stainless is better because of the oxidation but copper is a better conductor. i know that it may be negligible in this case due to the overall small space and the thermal conductive properties of water itself.

I was on stainlessbrewing.com earlier poking around, just was ready to pull the trigger. i was hoping for something a little bit cheaper!

Thanks for the info though! I appreciate it!

I've got 1/2 inch, 25' from stainlessbrewing.com. Was contemplating 50', but after some research here decided 25' would do fine, and it does.

Another vote for stainlessbrewing.com. 1/2" OD x 50 ft for me.

stainlessbrewing

+1 on stainlessbrewing.com. High quality and priced right

sensortech said:

I've got 1/2 inch, 25' from stainlessbrewing.com. Was contemplating 50', but after some research here decided 25' would do fine, and it does.

Click to expand...

What size batches are you doing? Any problems/delay mashing out? I've been contemplating 25' vs 50' myself.

jrstaples1 said:

What size batches are you doing? Any problems/delay mashing out? I've been contemplating 25' vs 50' myself.

Click to expand...

jrstaples1, I've done 2 batches so far with the electric system I'm putting together. I heat the strike water in the boil kettle then mash in. At the same time, I'm heating the water in the HLT. I get extremely close to what I want to mash at using sparge pal, so the mash is where I want it almost immediately, and maintained perfectly. As far as mashing out(or step mashes for that matter), a good point someone else made to me is that whether you have 25 or 50', you are still a slave to how fast your HLT can ramp up to temp.
i haven't done a 10 gallon batch yet but will soon, and don't anticipate anything different.

Also look at Colorado Brewing.com and jadedbrewing.com. co has 50' stainless coil and jaded has a crazy cloverleaf pattern that is more efficient.

I would not bother to try to save a bucks and bend it myself. The prices I see for coils pre-bent are close enough that I do not want risk linking breaking off a part of my coil.

I have a couple questions about efficiency.

Copper is a better conductor of heat. True. But you can make up for the difference with A- more tubing and/or B- higher temp water. Seems like these could be practical trade offs to me.

Another is length. 50' is more efficient than 25'. True. But you can make up for the difference in length with hotter water. What counts is the temp of the wort as it leaves the coil. Right?

Does it make a difference if wort comes out of the tubing at 150 deg because it went through 50' of tubing in 155 deg water compared to coming out 150 deg because went through 25' of tubing in 160 deg water?

I understand you are wasting energy by heating up the water an extra 5 deg. But you can save energy because you can use a smaller volume of water for a 25' coil compared to a 50' coil.

jsnby said:

Another vote for stainlessbrewing.com. 1/2" OD x 50 ft for me.

Click to expand...

Is that 12.5" coil?

RufusBrewer, as far as efficiency goes, if you heat your strike water correctly, all your coil is doing is maintaining your mash temp, and for me the HLT runs 2 degrees above my mash set point with my 25' coil. When doing step mashes your mash can only heat up as fast as rhe water in your HLT can heat. To me, the 25' is sufficient. Just my opinion, others may disagree.

RufusBrewer said:

I would not bother to try to save a bucks and bend it myself. The prices I see for coils pre-bent are close enough that I do not want risk linking breaking off a part of my coil.

I have a couple questions about efficiency.

Copper is a better conductor of heat. True. But you can make up for the difference with A- more tubing and/or B- higher temp water. Seems like these could be practical trade offs to me.

Another is length. 50' is more efficient than 25'. True. But you can make up for the difference in length with hotter water. What counts is the temp of the wort as it leaves the coil. Right?

Does it make a difference if wort comes out of the tubing at 150 deg because it went through 50' of tubing in 155 deg water compared to coming out 150 deg because went through 25' of tubing in 160 deg water?

I understand you are wasting energy by heating up the water an extra 5 deg. But you can save energy because you can use a smaller volume of water for a 25' coil compared to a 50' coil.

Click to expand...

Raising the temp isn't really a solution. For HERMS you want to control the temp of the mash very precisely. My mash temp is no more than 2F lower than my HLT temp using a stainless steel coil and no insulation on my mash tun. I have a 50' coil, but if I had a 25' coil I'm sure it would be the same, the only difference would be how long it would take the mash to catch up to the HLT and the difference there might be very minimal.

I am very happy with my 1/2" x 50' coil from stainless brewing.

If I could do my HERMS coil over again I'd have it attach to the lid of the pot instead of drilling through the sides of the pot. Makes cleaning out the HLT a lot easier. Not that it gets very dirty in there, but still. Then you could also use your HERMS coil as an immersion chiller for your BK.

Stainlessbrewing is where I got my coil. Very nice work they do.

I've been thinking of attaching the coil to the lid in my build. Any advantage/disadvantage to either method?

LandoLincoln said:

If I could do my HERMS coil over again I'd have it attach to the lid of the pot instead of drilling through the sides of the pot. Makes cleaning out the HLT a lot easier. Not that it gets very dirty in there, but still. Then you could also use your HERMS coil as an immersion chiller for your BK.

Stainlessbrewing is where I got my coil. Very nice work they do.

Click to expand...

They are the ones who did my lid-mount actually. They will bend pretty much anything. You can choose the options as a chiller coil and it will work great. All I added was some stainless wire braided around the coils for rigidity... it's solid.

I have a bru gear hlt with a coil in the lid. It can be heavy to lift and you have to pay attention to obstructions in the pot when you put the lid on. Many people have their temp sensor go deep into the tank. When people have a coil that is fixed they put the sensor between coils. My first coil did not clear the thermowell and caused the lid to stand an inch off the pot. A shorter coil did the trick, but now I need to maintain 8.5 gallons to cover the coil.

I have a 1/2" OD x 50' coil from stainlessbrewing.com and do 20 gallon batches. With my pump recirculating nearly wide open my wort out from the coil always matches my HLT temp. So in terms of efficiency I can say with confidence you are good to at least 20G batches on a 50' coil. Like others mentioned you are mainly limited to the ramp rate of your HLT.

My 2 cents:
With regard to mounting, it would be nice to have it in the lid for the purpose of cleaning the coil itself (inside) and getting it dry after cleaning. I don't see why you would need to clean your HLT with anything other than a quick water rinse, the only thing that goes in it is water. I don't see lid mount as a huge timesaver, I just leave my hoses configured for sparge when I start my cleaning stage so all cleaning solution and rinse water gets recirculated through the coil, then I blow it out with my air compressor. The only real savings is if you also use it as a chiller, but I do no-chill so I don't need to use it for that.

LandoLincoln said:

If I could do my HERMS coil over again I'd have it attach to the lid of the pot instead of drilling through the sides of the pot. Makes cleaning out the HLT a lot easier. Not that it gets very dirty in there, but still. Then you could also use your HERMS coil as an immersion chiller for your BK.

Stainlessbrewing is where I got my coil. Very nice work they do.

Click to expand...

THIS if you can. After digging in my HLT and trying to screw in a compression fitting at the bottom of my tank while holding the coil out of the way and up an squeezing both arms into the 12inch hold on top of my keggle, this would be well worth it.

sensortech said:

RufusBrewer, as far as efficiency goes, if you heat your strike water correctly, all your coil is doing is maintaining your mash temp, and for me the HLT runs 2 degrees above my mash set point with my 25' coil. When doing step mashes your mash can only heat up as fast as rhe water in your HLT can heat. To me, the 25' is sufficient. Just my opinion, others may disagree.

Click to expand...

Maybe I am missing something. Please allow me to make up some numbers for purpsoes of illustration.

Let's say your mash is 140 deg. Your HLT is sitting at 150 deg and you have a 50' HERMS coil. You pump wort out of your MT, through the HERMS and exhuasts out of the 50' coil at 145 deg. Let us say 145 deg is the "perfect" temp you for what you are doing.

Now let us say all other variables are the same, excecpt you have a 25" coil. I expect the exhuast wort out of the 25' coil will be less than 145 deg. Let's say it comes out of 143 deg.

One variable in the formula for heat transfer is dfference between the two liquids in play.

I assume that you can reach the "perfect" exhuast temp of 145 deg by raising the temp of the HLT a couple/few degrees. With this example, I offer the SWAG of 155 deg HLT temp.

What counts is your exhuast temp of 145 deg. If you do it using 50' @ 150 deg or 25' @ 155 deg, is there a significant difference?

RufusBrewer said:

Maybe I am missing something. Please allow me to make up some numbers for purpsoes of illustration.

Let's say your mash is 140 deg. Your HLT is sitting at 150 deg and you have a 50' HERMS coil. You pump wort out of your MT, through the HERMS and exhuasts out of the 50' coil at 145 deg. Let us say 145 deg is the "perfect" temp you for what you are doing.

Now let us say all other variables are the same, excecpt you have a 25" coil. I expect the exhuast wort out of the 25' coil will be less than 145 deg. Let's say it comes out of 143 deg.

One variable in the formula for heat transfer is dfference between the two liquids in play.

I assume that you can reach the "perfect" exhuast temp of 145 deg by raising the temp of the HLT a couple/few degrees. With this example, I offer the SWAG of 155 deg HLT temp.

What counts is your exhuast temp of 145 deg. If you do it using 50' @ 150 deg or 25' @ 155 deg, is there a significant difference?

Click to expand...

Gameface said:

Raising the temp isn't really a solution. For HERMS you want to control the temp of the mash very precisely. My mash temp is no more than 2F lower than my HLT temp using a stainless steel coil and no insulation on my mash tun. I have a 50' coil, but if I had a 25' coil I'm sure it would be the same, the only difference would be how long it would take the mash to catch up to the HLT and the difference there might be very minimal.

Click to expand...

RufusBrewer, Not sure what you have for a set up, but I have my temperature probe measuring the wort after it goes through the coil as it re-enters the MT. I use a BCS controller and associate that probe with the heater in my HLT. In other words, I set the mash temp I want to maintain, and not the water temp.

I have 25', and Gameface has 50', and it seems we both are able to maintain mash temps with the water being only 2 degrees higher. It would probably make more of a difference if you were blasting the wort through the coil, but at the volume you want to be moving it at it's in the 25' coil long enough to match/maintain temp. Hope this helps.

RufusBrewer said:

Maybe I am missing something. Please allow me to make up some numbers for purpsoes of illustration.

Let's say your mash is 140 deg. Your HLT is sitting at 150 deg and you have a 50' HERMS coil. You pump wort out of your MT, through the HERMS and exhuasts out of the 50' coil at 145 deg. Let us say 145 deg is the "perfect" temp you for what you are doing.

Now let us say all other variables are the same, excecpt you have a 25" coil. I expect the exhuast wort out of the 25' coil will be less than 145 deg. Let's say it comes out of 143 deg.

One variable in the formula for heat transfer is dfference between the two liquids in play.

I assume that you can reach the "perfect" exhuast temp of 145 deg by raising the temp of the HLT a couple/few degrees. With this example, I offer the SWAG of 155 deg HLT temp.

What counts is your exhuast temp of 145 deg. If you do it using 50' @ 150 deg or 25' @ 155 deg, is there a significant difference?

Click to expand...

...and then a couple minutes later you have 145 degree wort going into your HERMS coil in an HLT at 155 and the wort comes out at 150, and then a couple minutes later it's coming out at 153. Now you're way above your "perfect" exhaust temp and cooling it all down is going to be a lot harder than heating it up.

The other option I haven't seen mentioned is controlling the flow thru the HERMS to make up for coil length.

sensortech said:

RufusBrewer, Not sure what you have for a set up, but I have my temperature probe measuring the wort after it goes through the coil as it re-enters the MT. I use a BCS controller and associate that probe with the heater in my HLT. In other words, I set the mash temp I want to maintain, and not the water temp.

I have 25', and Gameface has 50', and it seems we both are able to maintain mash temps with the water being only 2 degrees higher. It would probably make more of a difference if you were blasting the wort through the coil, but at the volume you want to be moving it at it's in the 25' coil long enough to match/maintain temp. Hope this helps.

Click to expand...

Sensortech and Gameface,

I see what you guys are getting at. My mistake: I did not consider what happens when the wort goes through the coil in cycles #2, #3, #4, etc. With each cycle the wort temp will increase as it tries to reach a stasis with the HLT water.

If you set and forget the HLT temp, eventually the mash will reach, very closely, to the HLT preset.

I suspect there is a variety of ways to solve the situation. But simply cranking up the HLT temp (per my previous posts) is not one of them.

Setting your HLT temp isn't the best way to go, in my opinion. You won't know exactly what the mash temp is because you're assuming it's going to be close to the water in your HLT. Rather, have the controller measure off the mash temp probe and it will adjust the water accordingly. If i want to mash at 152, I really don't care what the water temp is, so long as it's keeping the mash at 152. Just so happens that it's around 154 to maintain 152 mash.

sensortech said:

Setting your HLT temp isn't the best way to go, in my opinion. You won't know exactly what the mash temp is because you're assuming it's going to be close to the water in your HLT. Rather, have the controller measure off the mash temp probe and it will adjust the water accordingly. If i want to mash at 152, I really don't care what the water temp is, so long as it's keeping the mash at 152. Just so happens that it's around 154 to maintain 152 mash.

Click to expand...

If your HLT needed to be at a high enough temperature to yield target MLT temperature, that the HLT was denaturing enzymes, then you would likely care.

jeffmeh said:

If your HLT needed to be at a high enough temperature to yield target MLT temperature, that the HLT was denaturing enzymes, then you would likely care.

Click to expand...

If it had to be that high, I'd have bigger problems.

sensortech said:

Setting your HLT temp isn't the best way to go, in my opinion. You won't know exactly what the mash temp is because you're assuming it's going to be close to the water in your HLT. Rather, have the controller measure off the mash temp probe and it will adjust the water accordingly. If i want to mash at 152, I really don't care what the water temp is, so long as it's keeping the mash at 152. Just so happens that it's around 154 to maintain 152 mash.

Click to expand...

I agree. 100%

What you monitor, what counts and what you base decisions on is the mash temp. I s the mash temp too low? Is the mash temp too high?

As you pointed out, a properly set HLT temp is what keeps your mash from running away and getting out of hand. You have to set your HLT temp to a wise and thoughtfully considered temperature point.

RufusBrewer said:

Copper is a better conductor of heat. True. But you can make up for the difference with A- more tubing and/or B- higher temp water. Seems like these could be practical trade offs to me.

Click to expand...

You don't have to make up for it really.

I see often people quote that copper is a better conductor of heat than stainless. That is true, but with a HERMS coil where the two liquids exchanging heat are almost at the same time (usually within a degree or so from each other) this difference in heat transfer efficiency is no longer relevant.

Where it matters and the difference is noted is when the two liquids are much farther apart in temperature such as a CFC (counterflow chiller) for chilling wort from boiling down to pitch temps. There you could easily have a 140-150 degree F difference.

So get a stainless HERMS coil, but a copper CFC.

Kal

anticrapple said:

I'm in the market for a HERMS coil. I want to 1/2" OD tubing. I havent settles on copper or SS. So if you have a HERMS coil, where did you get it?

Im trying to find the best price out there!

Thanks for the help!

Click to expand...

Stainlessbrewing.com

I checked out the price of a 1/2" x 50' stainless, and it wasn't much cheaper than buying the stainless pre-coiled from SSB. Zero chance of kinking it while trying to coil it, and for just a few bucks more, well worth the price, IMHO.

Hi,

I have a ss brewpot as my HLT and I've fashioned my own 50' copper HERMS coil (bent in a 14" diameter). I mounted the HERMS coil to the pot via compression fittings, but the weight of the HERMS coil is bending my pot (the ball valve attached to the lower HERMS port is pointing a bit upwards because the kettle wall is deflecting a bit). Is this normal, or is there some way to counteract this? Thanks for any input!

dsteeves said:

Hi,

I have a ss brewpot as my HLT and I've fashioned my own 50' copper HERMS coil (bent in a 14" diameter). I mounted the HERMS coil to the pot via compression fittings, but the weight of the HERMS coil is bending my pot (the ball valve attached to the lower HERMS port is pointing a bit upwards because the kettle wall is deflecting a bit). Is this normal, or is there some way to counteract this? Thanks for any input!

Click to expand...

Yeah, there are ways. The way I did it was cheap and did the job, but it looks rather unprofessional. I went to the dollar store and bought three stainless steel serving forks, bent the tines in opposite directions, and then bent the handles in such a way so that the handle wove through the coils and the tine ends rest on the bottom of the pot, supporting the coil.

Eh. Not many people look into the bottom of the HLT anyway.

kal said:

You don't have to make up for it really.

I see often people quote that copper is a better conductor of heat than stainless. That is true, but with a HERMS coil where the two liquids exchanging heat are almost at the same time (usually within a degree or so from each other) this difference in heat transfer efficiency is no longer relevant.

Where it matters and the difference is noted is when the two liquids are much farther apart in temperature such as a CFC (counterflow chiller) for chilling wort from boiling down to pitch temps. There you could easily have a 140-150 degree F difference.

So get a stainless HERMS coil, but a copper CFC.

Kal

Click to expand...

Kal is correct. Your greatest restriction will be the film coefficients of the two fluids. If you want better heat transfer pump the wort in the coil harder or agitate the water in the HLT.

LandoLincoln said:

Yeah, there are ways. The way I did it was cheap and did the job, but it looks rather unprofessional. I went to the dollar store and bought three stainless steel serving forks, bent the tines in opposite directions, and then bent the handles in such a way so that the handle wove through the coils and the tine ends rest on the bottom of the pot, supporting the coil.

Eh. Not many people look into the bottom of the HLT anyway.

Click to expand...

In simpler terms, buy something cheap thats stainless, and bend it to make standoff legs to keep the back of the coil up.