Oxidization question...

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riored4v

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couple beers i've had entered into competitions lately seem to come back with reviews of oxidization. I personally dont taste it, but I'm going to try and trust the palates of the bjcp judges and professional brewers.

My problem is trying to figure out where this is coming from. Everything post boil is as follows:

Once wort is chilled, pump is used to enter in the buckets
Fermentation is complete, auto-siphon is used to rack to keg
Once in keg, bottling is done using the "no stickin' beer gun" method.

I'm pretty careful on not splashing beer around when it comes to transferring everything. I'm honestly not to sure where it could be coming from aside from maybe dirty tap lines or the lack of beer gun..?? I'm pretty sure I'm going to pick up a Blichmann Beer Gun to try and eliminate the chance of oxygen there, but aside from that, what are some other suggestions?

Thanks guys:mug:
 
How old are the beers you entered into competition? It's nearly impossible to get zero oxidation, so if the beers are getting long in the tooth and aren't big beers to begin with - an experienced judge will be able to pick out some "staleness".

It could be the beer gun, but I've bottled batches using a technique similar to that and not had any oxidation issues. You could try pre-purging the bottles with CO2, but I doubt that'd make a huge difference.
 
maybe oxygen-absorbing caps would help? guess it would depend if the oxidization is happening in the bottles, or if the beer is being oxidized before then (if the latter, the OA caps won't help).
 
maybe oxygen-absorbing caps would help? guess it would depend if the oxidization is happening in the bottles, or if the beer is being oxidized before then (if the latter, the OA caps won't help).

the beers are typically bottled a few weeks before the tastings, fwiw.

If its being oxidized prior to bottling, then my guess is that would happen either with the auto-siphon or somewhere in the boil process with the pump..??
 
How old are the beers you entered into competition? It's nearly impossible to get zero oxidation, so if the beers are getting long in the tooth and aren't big beers to begin with - an experienced judge will be able to pick out some "staleness".

It could be the beer gun, but I've bottled batches using a technique similar to that and not had any oxidation issues. You could try pre-purging the bottles with CO2, but I doubt that'd make a huge difference.

For the most part, the beers are usually no older than 2 months and kept in the keg the entire time. I do have a few bigger beers that I've set aside in bottles, but this seems to be happening on the smaller beers from the kegs.
 
Another thing to mention, is that with my pump, I turn it on during the last 15 minutes of the boil to sanitize it before flame out. I usually open the valve on the kettle to help prime the pump. With the boil going though, it usually still has some air pockets going through the lines. I have the return line entering the kettle from the top, but is submerged under the surface of the wort. Could the air from the boil being pulled through the pump cause oxidization? Once the boil is calmed or flame shutoff, there is no air in the lines at all.
 
I was wondering if it was air in the auto siphon.

I know when I started to use mine I would pump it repeatedly, which would cause air bubbles in it. But it only needs to be pumped once or twice to start the siphon and then it will flow on its own.

Just a thought.
 
This is a bit obvious, but are you purging the keg with CO2 before and after racking?
 
We do the same and am thinking that I will keep boiled water in the lines and pump so we do not have any air in the lines. We use the brew kettle to heat the Mash Water. We are going to leave the pump and lines full and not mess with the pump. We normally process the beer so fast, we might not see and staleness anyway. We do not enter contests either. We do prefill our kegs with Co2.
 
I wouldn't worry about oxidation during the boil.. if you're getting significant oxidation, pay attention to everything you do after the yeast have started fermenting. It could be the transfer with the auto-siphon into the keg, you could put a layer of CO2 into the keg before siphoning to see if that helps. I always try to make sure that the siphon hose stays below the liquid level (as soon as there's enough liquid to make that possible).

Another possibility is that it's not oxidation, but something else entirely that comes off as oxidized. Sometimes a beer doesn't give you a start/middle/finish type of ride when judging, the beer kind of falls flat right after the initial taste. It may not taste like wet cardboard, but I usually feel like the thinness of flavor is sort of papery. Could be oxidation or could be water profile or something else.
 
I was wondering if it was air in the auto siphon.

I know when I started to use mine I would pump it repeatedly, which would cause air bubbles in it. But it only needs to be pumped once or twice to start the siphon and then it will flow on its own.

Just a thought.

The auto-siphon might be the next thing to be replaced since I have noticed some VERY small air bubbles when i get the siphon going.
 
I wouldn't worry about oxidation during the boil.. if you're getting significant oxidation, pay attention to everything you do after the yeast have started fermenting. It could be the transfer with the auto-siphon into the keg, you could put a layer of CO2 into the keg before siphoning to see if that helps. I always try to make sure that the siphon hose stays below the liquid level (as soon as there's enough liquid to make that possible).

Another possibility is that it's not oxidation, but something else entirely that comes off as oxidized. Sometimes a beer doesn't give you a start/middle/finish type of ride when judging, the beer kind of falls flat right after the initial taste. It may not taste like wet cardboard, but I usually feel like the thinness of flavor is sort of papery. Could be oxidation or could be water profile or something else.

To answer the question above, and to touch on it with your post, no, I don't purge the keg with CO2 before filling, but I do purge it a few times (3 or 4) after its been filled.

With the auto-siphon, I have a racking cane attached to it so it can reach the bottom of the keg with no splashing of any sort.

IF its truly oxidization, it must be a very small amount because I honestly don't taste it:drunk: That's why I'm possibly thinking the flavor could be mistaken with dirty tap lines?? Its probably the one thing i've neglected the most, which is a process that I've now changed.
 
I've noticed much better hop aroma pre-purging the keg, give it a try next time.

Dumb question.. but I already am planning on picking up a Beer Gun and probably a seperate Co2 tank for it.. this should be able to be done easily using the gun right?
 
For the most part, the beers are usually no older than 2 months and kept in the keg the entire time. I do have a few bigger beers that I've set aside in bottles, but this seems to be happening on the smaller beers from the kegs.

This is my opinion, and my opinion only, based on experience and many threads on this topic.. but my opinion is that it is in fact not oxidation. Oxidation is something that takes time to rear its ugly head. And that's even AFTER you've done a good job of oxygenating the beer on purpose. Some air pockets in your pump lines and air bubbles in the autosiphon is not going to oxygenate your beer to a level that's noticeable within two months (not sure about professional judges or very experienced tasters). I'm thinking it may be something else? Someone with more experience may correct me, however.
 
Dumb question.. but I already am planning on picking up a Beer Gun and probably a seperate Co2 tank for it.. this should be able to be done easily using the gun right?

Yep, did you cap on foam with the other method?
 
Some air pockets in your pump lines and air bubbles in the autosiphon is not going to oxygenate your beer to a level that's noticeable within two months (not sure about professional judges or very experienced tasters). I'm thinking it may be something else? Someone with more experience may correct me, however.

I agree, the nitpicking about tiny bubbles in your autosiphon and the other things is going way above and beyond what's reasonable.
That said, I don't know what level of oxidation these judges are detecting, 2 months old is actually getting to the point where hoppy or small beers could be showing some signs of age. That's why people re-brew some beers that they submitted to NHC that make the finals. They probably aren't oxidized by that point, but they aren't exactly fresh and won't present as well as a fresh beer.
 
Yep, did you cap on foam with the other method?

Yup.

On the bottling subject, there have been a few beers that had bit of excessive foaming when I bottled (even after venting the keg of some of the CO2). I'll try to control the flow with the stopper, but on certain ones there is just too much foam so I'll vent the bottle/foam out of the stopper. I wouldn't think it would cause oxidization issues, but who knows.
 
I agree, the nitpicking about tiny bubbles in your autosiphon and the other things is going way above and beyond what's reasonable.
That said, I don't know what level of oxidation these judges are detecting, 2 months old is actually getting to the point where hoppy or small beers could be showing some signs of age. That's why people re-brew some beers that they submitted to NHC that make the finals. They probably aren't oxidized by that point, but they aren't exactly fresh and won't present as well as a fresh beer.

The recents comments were on a couple of stouts and a kolsch.
 
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