Pulling my hair out eff % ?

I've been brewing AG for 5 years. Got it down to a 68-71% eff every time with a converted cooler, 1.25 qts./lb of grain mash and my mash temps are right on.

The last 3 batches have been in the low 50's for eff. I am having to boil all my brews for 90 minutes plus to get my OG right.

The only thing I can think of is MoreBeer (all my ingredients are from there - always have been) has been not doing as good of a crush. It's the only thing I don't have control over because I have never needed/bought a grain crusher.

Thoughts?

Time to get a mill. Do you have a manifold in your cooler?

It sounds like it must be the crush if it looks noticeably worse... You could call them and see if something has changed with the way they crush, or just make sure that they are aware of the problem.

Other thought would be if something is different with your water supply?

How would boiling for 90 minutes fix your OG? Your post boil volume should be the same for your recipoe regardless of boil time...preboil amount will vary though if your post boil volume remains constant. Therefore, my earlier question remains...why would more boil improve your target OG????

Boil longer to concentrate the wort and hit intended gravity ... at the expense of final volume of course

mcaple1 said:

How would boiling for 90 minutes fix your OG? Your post boil volume should be the same for your recipoe regardless of boil time...preboil amount will vary though if your post boil volume remains constant. Therefore, my earlier question remains...why would more boil improve your target OG????

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You can sparge more, start with more preboil volume, boil longer, and end up with a more appropriate OG.

Strave19 said:

Boil longer to concentrate the wort and hit intended gravity ... at the expense of final volume of course

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Exactly. This way you still end up with your intended recipe, just not as much of it.

mlg5039 said:

You can sparge more, start with more preboil volume, boil longer, and end up with a more appropriate OG.

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Well,then you will need to adjust your hop additions or else the utilization will be way off.

true

If you have been AG'ing for 5 years you should have noticed a difference in the crush immediately, at least one bad enough to effect your efficiency that much. So as someone else mentioned you might consider that your water has changed. How about brewing a batch with some store bought RO water and a bit of Calcium Chloride (see water primer in Brew Science threads).

That's what I do. RO plus CaCl. Yes, since I have had this problem for the last 3 batches, I take a careful reading for pre boil and then boil down (30 minutes) before my 60 minute hop addition. Boiling concentrates the wort. My post boil amounts are a gallon short of what I want. My sparge looks very light colored, so don't want to add more of that. I feel like I am getting the sugars out, it's just not crushed (as first mentioned). I never really look at my crush since I don't do it myself.

I use a ss braid (do it yourself kind). None of that has changed. I was hoping another B3 cutomer would chime in and sat it's not them or they're having the same problem.

I think I'll shoot them an email, but I don't want to ask something that is a fault of mine.

AnOldUR said:

Boil 90 minutes . . .
first hops at 60 as per schedule.

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Eh, but unless you decrease the hop amount to accommodate for the reduced volume, you'll still be off. It's unclear whether the OP made that adjustment.

Jamil and Tasty have both pointed out that the crush does matter, a finer crush is better to a point...there is a point at which the crush becomes so fine that eff drops. The same goes the other direction. Tests have found that a crush where the majority of the grain is crushed but in tact, then that is the best crush. There are screens that you can sift your grist through to help determine your crush fineness, but that might be going a little overboard.

StunnedMonkey said:

Eh, but unless you decrease the hop amount to accommodate for the reduced volume, you'll still be off. It's unclear whether the OP made that adjustment.

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That was kind of my point...and hop utilization changes at different gravioty concentration...therefore, without having the correct pre-boil volume and gravity, your IBU calculations will be waaayyy off. But in the end...you will still have made beer. So no worries.

mcaple1 said:

Well,then you will need to adjust your hop additions or else the utilization will be way off.

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mcaple1 said:

That was kind of my point...and hop utilization changes at different gravioty concentration...therefore, without having the correct pre-boil volume and gravity, your IBU calculations will be waaayyy off. But in the end...you will still have made beer. So no worries.

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As AnOldUR said, the boil length doesn't matter at all. You can boil 6 hours, and not change your hops utilization. (Not that I'd want to!!!!!)

Your IBU calculations won't be "waaayyyy off" at all. Not if you have an inkling of what you're doing.

doesn't hop utilization also depend on volume of the wort...not just the gravity...if he puts 1 oz of magnum in 6.5 gallons of 1.060 wort for 60 min vs 1 oz of magnum in 5 gallons of 1.060 wort for 60 minutes, the utilization will be different. Please agree with me on this one Yoop!

mcaple1 said:

doesn't hop utilization also depend on volume of the wort...not just the gravity...if he puts 1 oz of magnum in 6.5 gallons of 1.060 wort for 60 min vs 1 oz of magnum in 5 gallons of 1.060 wort for 60 minutes, the utilization will be different. Please agree with me on this one Yoop!

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Well, yeah. This seems obvious to me. I wonder if people are talking about two different things here. If I understood the OP, he missed his gravity and adjusted for this by boiling the wort longer, effectively concentrating the wort to produce his desired gravity, and by extension ending up with a smaller final volume. So unless he also decreased the hops relative to the decreased volume, he's not going to achieve the same balance that he intended. As you pointed out, an ounce of Magnum in 6.5 gallons will produce a different IBU result than an ounce of magnum in 5 gallons. Not sure how this is even debatable.

mcaple1 said:

doesn't hop utilization also depend on volume of the wort...not just the gravity...if he puts 1 oz of magnum in 6.5 gallons of 1.060 wort for 60 min vs 1 oz of magnum in 5 gallons of 1.060 wort for 60 minutes, the utilization will be different. Please agree with me on this one Yoop!

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Yes- you're right. The difference will be very slight, but there will be a difference. You're talking about maybe 1-5 IBUs, though- so it's an insignifcant difference. It's certainly not WAY off!

But the reason I said it's the same is that you don't add the hops until you're at the volume and boil time that you should have been at before the extra boiling.

You're still adding hops with 6.5 gallons of wort (for example) and boiling for 60 minutes. The extra boiling would come before the hops addition.

AnOldUR said:

Yeah. My posts have been based on my (and mlg5039 ‘s) original suggestion that if you are extending the boil you should use more sparge water so that the volume at 60 minutes into a 90 minute boil is what is needed to get your planned final volume.

But all this was a side and off-topic discussion. 50% efficiency is not acceptable and an extended boil is not a good solution. Batch sparging is pretty fool proof. If all other things are equal, your new found lower grtavity must be crush. Try a different source for gran (or bite the bullet and buy a mill.)

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Yes, that's where I was coming from as well.

Consistancy is far more important than efficiency for a homebrewer. And you cant be sure of consistancy if others are milling the grain for you. Get a grain mill and DIY. If then you only get 50% so what, add extra grain to your recipes, at a cost of a couple bucks. Commercial brewers are more concerned about this because low eff costs them tons of grain. Get the mill and leave it chunky or grind it to dust, its up to you. Just do it the same every time or you will be in the same boat not knowing what your going to end up with.

Yooper said:

Yes- you're right. The difference will be very slight, but there will be a difference. You're talking about maybe 1-5 IBUs, though- so it's an insignifcant difference. It's certainly not WAY off!

But the reason I said it's the same is that you don't add the hops until you're at the volume and boil time that you should have been at before the extra boiling.

You're still adding hops with 6.5 gallons of wort (for example) and boiling for 60 minutes. The extra boiling would come before the hops addition.

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welllll....not really Yooper...and correct me if I'm wrong. But the OP is saying that at the 60 min point, the volume will not be at the intended recipe volume, but it will be at the intended preboil OG...with that said, I have played around with Beersmith and Brewtarget to see how volume would change the IBU usage, and yes, with a low IBU target, the difference will be minimal, but with a 100+ IBU imperial IPA, then I am going to have to disagree with you, the hop utilization will be WAYYY off.

This was 18 IBU hefe......but I know that's no the point here.

c'mon StunnedMonkey....back me up bro!

Why don't you start your own thread on hop utilization? The OP isn't getting much out of the argument, and it seems you're now grasping at straws to back up your original claim.

Using any Maris otter by any chance? I've been getting poor efficiency with it as have local breweries; apparently the winter crop isn't the best.

mcaple1 said:

c'mon StunnedMonkey....back me up bro!

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See, I know what you're saying but it seems lost on everyone else as they seem fixated on something else. I let it go because it doesn't seem to matter anymore to the OP. But yeah, x hops in 4 gallons of final volume is going to be far different than the same amount of hops in 5.5 gallons of final volume. Not sure how this can even be debated.

Stunned Monkey,

Thank you!

And to all the haters,

I did address the OP's issue, I noted that Jamil and Tasty both have addressed the crush issue before, and if you are really worried about it, crush it yourself, or buy a screen to test the crush fine-ness (SP?). Everyone thinks that a finer crush will help with efficiency, but there is a limit. In some cases, a more coarse crush is ideal. I was only pointing out the hop utilization thing to remind the OP that yes, hop utilization is very dependent on wort volume...therefore, if this 90 minute boil off routine, coupled with more sparge voolume is how they will fix their eff issue, then they need to know this as well (I'm not grasping onto any straws here). Stop hating on those trying to help...this is definitely a relevant point.

Hope that helps OP.

:cross: